Harman Oakwood smoke issues

[Dill]

Howdy.
I've been burning wood for while now. 3 years ago I purchased a new Harmon Oakwood to replace my older VC Vigilant. I was happy to find such a simlar stove with top load and basically the same controls. I've been burning between 5-6 cords a year the last 2 years in the oakwood without any major issues. There was a learning curve with the oakwood but nothing serious.
I cleaned my chimmney out 3 weeks ago and started up the stove this year's heating season.
And I have an issue.
With the damper shut I'm getting a strong smoke odor in the house. With the damper open no problems. I figured it was maybe due to the fact its only 40ish outside at night. So I've heated the chimmney up more before closing the damper, but it didn't help.
I have a strong draft with the damper open.
The dealer that I bought the stove from is no longer a harman dealer. Not that I would have gone back since the customer service was lousy. So I figured I'd turn here for advice. Thanks

 

[N/A N/A]

Have you inspected your door gaskets lately? I know being new to using my TL 300 I have made the mistake of opening the door while I had it in after-burn and it really forcefully injects my home with smoke. Its not above me to think that if the gaskets are reaching the end of there life span that putting these stoves into after-burn with a poor door gasket that it could not potentially force smoke around the gasket??? Just a thought. Give the gaskets the old dollar bill test. Check both the door and ash pan door gasket. My old englander gaskets only got about two years use before they were shot.

 

[Ken45]

Are you referring to shutting the chimney damper? Why are you doing that, it's dangerous?

AFAIK, when you have a fire going, you should have the chimney damper open and use the stove controls to cut back the fire. Only use the chimney damper to cut back an excessive draft and then only partially close it, just enough to reduce the draft enough that your air inlet can control the fire.

Closing the chimney damper is a good way to fill the house with smoke or carbon monoxide.

Ken

 

[djarseneault]

Are you referring to shutting the chimney damper? Why are you doing that, it's dangerous?

AFAIK, when you have a fire going, you should have the chimney damper open and use the stove controls to cut back the fire. Only use the chimney damper to cut back an excessive draft and then only partially close it, just enough to reduce the draft enough that your air inlet can control the fire.

Closing the chimney damper is a good way to fill the house with smoke or carbon monoxide.

Ken

No, the Oakwood has its own damper that you close in order to use it's after burner.

Dill, Your after burner may be plugged up. Take it apart and clean it out

 

[webbie]

My guess would be two things....
1. Ash in the back as the post above says - make certain the path ways from the firebox to the flue are well open.
2. Time of year - in warmer weather and with smaller fires, chimneys tend to not draw as strong - many folks don't use the downdraft mode until it gets somewhat cold.

 

[branchburner]

[/quote]Your after burner may be plugged up. Take it apart and clean it out[/quote]

Be gentle, the ceramic fiber combustion package is fragile, especially after a few years. Use an ash vac, not a regular vac.

I looked at two used Oakwoods and both had damaged combustion packages, apparently from over-zealous vacuum cleaning or some other blunt-force trauma. (I bought one from the dealer I believe you speak of, not knowing it was damaged until discovering it by accident weeks later - I'm not surprised by your opinion of their service.)

Is the stove top-vented or rear-vented? If top-vented, it seems like that combustion package is exposed to whatever might come down the flue when the bypass damper is closed. When the chimney was swept, could some of the debris gone into the secondary burn chamber via the flue collar? That might explain some afterburner clogging and why this problem arose after the cleaning.

 

[Dill]

Ok thank you very much for all the replies.

Lets see if I can answer most of the questions.
Its rear vented not top.
I called over to the store in Hampton and they suggested that I vacuum it out. So I pulled the pipe off the stove (I don't usually vacuum the stove as part of the chimney cleaning) and just vacuum from the top, I didn't shove it down in the afterburner.
So that means how do I inspect the afterburner or fix it? Is this covered by Harman? And if not I'm not too impressed with how long this lasted, my VC did 20 years (between the original owners and me) before a rebuild.
OH and the original store was Abundant Life which I'm guessing you figured out. I bought it as a floor model (non-burned) in their spring sale for peanuts (1400) and the manager evidently held a grudge. They wouldn't help me even before they lost the Harman dealership.

 

[MishMouse]

Is there another Harman dealer in your area?

Here is a link from the Harman site stating that you can get service elsewhere as long as it is an authorized dealership.

http://www.harmanstoves.com/faqs/?Action=Q&ID=93

You bought an Oakwood for $1,400?
Wow, that is a very good price they normally sell for over 2.4K and that was before the run on stoves.
That price itself sounds a little suspicious especially since you are having problems.
They may have sold you a defective stove.

If giving her a good cleaning didn't fix the problem, my advice is if you do not feel comfortable messing with the combustion chamber, is find another Harman dealership in your area and have them service it.

 

[branchburner]

You might call Hampton again - the 6yr warranty should still be good even with a new dealer. Did that come with the floor model? (If not, at least you got a deal.)

I would expect w/ rear venting it's alot less likely any junk fell straight into the back of the stove. You may want to remove the flue collar to get better access to inspect, and carefully, as the combustion package is exposed right below the damper.

But first, perhaps vacuum the bricks from the front of the stove being really careful to go slow around that recessed center piece, the shoe brick. You can feel with your fingers that the ceramic fiber is exposed just behind it, above and to the sides, and that's the fragile stuff that I think some folks have had come right off with the vacuum! If you're adventurous and the bricks are easy to remove (mine were) I think you could just lift out that shoe brick (it has a rope gasket below) and visually inspect the combustion package behind for damage/clogging. Next step? Couldn't tell ya, but it's $300 for a new part, that much I know. (Warranty? Not me - got mine used, as is, overfired, from an ex-dealer!)

A few weeks after I got my stove I took the flue collar off to switch it to rear venting. With the collar off I decided to carefully reach my hand down the sides of the afterburner. I found a lot of ash, and surprise, also found the combustion package was broken on one side, right above the secondary air intake. (assuming this was from a vacuum hose, but not sure)

Going to the front of the stove I removed the bricks and saw the combustion package looked intact but was cracked at the top. (not sure how this could have happened - installed that way?) I attempted to remove it and realized (slightly too late) I didn't know what the hell I was doing - it slides out the back. The third area of damage to the combustion package was also a mystery - a hole burnt right through the back. So I put in a new one and as soon as it gets cold I'll know what's what (I hope).

 

[Dill]

I'll try the feel around the stove again. If nothing else I'm not really looking forward to hauling the stove anywhere to get worked on. Its about the heaviest stove I've ever dealt with worse than some soapstones. Plus I'm not sure if I still have the receipt and everything else from when we bought it.
The parts list on harman's website is a bit confusing, along with the rest of the manual which really doesn't tell me squat.
So to make sure I'm on the same page. The brick with the secondary intake will lift out? I'm assuming that's what you are calling the "shoe". And the combustion camber is behind it. I hope nothing needs to be replaced since heating season is coming fast.

 

[branchburner]

I'll try the feel around the stove again. If nothing else I'm not really looking forward to hauling the stove anywhere to get worked on. Its about the heaviest stove I've ever dealt with worse than some soapstones. Plus I'm not sure if I still have the receipt and everything else from when we bought it.
The parts list on harman's website is a bit confusing, along with the rest of the manual which really doesn't tell me squat.
So to make sure I'm on the same page. The brick with the secondary intake will lift out? I'm assuming that's what you are calling the "shoe". And the combustion camber is behind it. I hope nothing needs to be replaced since heating season is coming fast.

I think the guy in N Hampton who knows these stoves is Bobby (?) - might be worth picking his brain a bit. They probably aren't dying to get any warranty work this time of year and may have a few other tips. (And if you do claim warranty you shouldn't need a receipt - just serial # off back of stove)

In my stove the two side bricks and three back bricks just sit in place, interlocked with just the two small metal corner clips securing them. I left the side bricks in, jsut popping out the back 3 then and lifting the shoe. Good luck.

Just going back to your original post: don't discount the possibility there may be nothing wrong with your stove. Not saying it's wood or weather or chimney, but who knows?

 

[branchburner]

Sorry, just took a look - to be more clear, there are two back bolts that need to be loosened slightly to pivot the clips, as well as the corner bracker spacers that just hang freely.

 

[djarseneault]

a warranty claim can be filed without reciept as long as you registered the warranty with Harman, and can provide your date of purchase.

 

[Dill]

Ok, I just spoke with Bob in Hampton. He is leaning towards the gasket on the damper. Its attached to the stove side and seals the system off so the combustion package get the proper draft. So I'll check that out tonight.

 

[Dill]

Okay so the gasket was still there. I reread the manual on harman's site and it mention tightening the damper door. But is classic Harman fashion "Damper Ramp Adjustment
After the stove has been in operation for awhile,
the damper gasket may compress and allow the damper
handle to move from the open to the closed position without
the added ramp tension needed to keep the damper
held in the closed position.
To adjust the ramp, the stove MUST be allowed to
go out and cool down.
• After the stove has cooled off, remove the stove pipe
from the stove collar and close the damper.
• Using a flashlight, look into the collar. About midpoint of
the damper plate on the backside you will see the adjustment
bolt for the ramp tension.
• You will need (2) 7/16 " wrenches. Use one to hold the
bolt still while using the other to loosen the nut.
• Turn the bolt inward (clockwise facing the head) approximately
1/4 turn and retighten the locknut.
• Now open and close the damper to check for proper
tension on the damper lever while moving into the closed
direction.
• If the tension is incorrect, readjust the bolt.




Ah once I've got the magic perfect tension I'll just know it right? Man oh man do these guys know how to write instruction's. I figured out foreign language instructions easier at least they come with pictures.
Well I made it tight. And then a little tighter. I don't feel like taking this apart every other day.
So we'll see.

 

[N/A N/A]

Well good luck with all that. I am sure I will be down that road some day.

 

[Dill]

Well that did absolutely nothing. I'm getting frustrated here. Within 2 hours of closing the damper last night the whole house stunk of smoke.
1. Does anyone have a direct number to Harman?
2. The top fire brick that runs across the back of the stove is cracked in 2 places making it into 3 pieces. I doubt it. But would this lead to my problems?

 

[Dill]

Well after talking to a couple other Harman dealers the conclusion is pretty much what Branch Burner said. The combustion chamber must be plugged up. So I'm going to take it apart tonight. I'll try and get some pics of the process.
I did get to take a look at the bricks from an oakwood and a combustion chamber from a TL300. So I'm not going in blind. But 1 question. If the vacuum is dangerous to the chamber and you can poke in it. What do you use to clean it out?

 

[branchburner]

If the vacuum is dangerous to the chamber and you can poke in it. What do you use to clean it out?

Well. that's a good question - since my combustion package (CP) was destroyed and had to be replaced, I did play around with it a bit. I found the vacuum would suck off all the soot coating, plus some outer flakes, but not really damage it unless you scraped the vacuum pipe right across the CP. That is with the CP out of the stove. I think the greater danger is when IT IS STILL IN THE STOVE AND YOU ARE POKING AT IT W/ THE VACUUM. Then you risk chipping it, breaking it, etc.

If you want to drive over to Nottingham and take a look, pm me.

Did you ever try removing just the solid "shoe" piece and cleaning those holes? And did you reach down behind the flue collar when you had the stovepipe off to check that area out?

 

[branchburner]

You know, in looking at that shoe, it just has 9 holes that you could vacuum right from the front no prob, as long as you don't go poking off to the side. You can see right through them and tell if they are clear. The more fragile CP locked up in the back has dozens of holes.

 

[Dill]

Ok tonight's dis-assembly and reassembly is done. Thanks to Branch Burner for letting me check out his piece's of harman. It really helps to know what your looking at before you take it apart.
First off I lied I didn't take many pics. Only 1. The darn thing came apart so nice I didn't want to stop.
So here is the procedure.
What till the fire out completely for a day or so you'll need to vacuum.
Brush the ash you can into the pan. Vacuum what you can't, it helps to leave the top closed and work through the door, it helps keep the dust under control.
Remove the door. That sucker is heavy so have a place picked out. Do not place on top of your wood. I tried that and didn't lose the door but had a couple of nice size pieces of maple land on bare toes.
(wear shoes).

Ok now that the door is off survey the situation. There are 2 corner clips that just lift out. Those are between the side walls and rear brick in the corners, pull those. Now with a 1/2 wrench loosen and remove the clips in the back below the damper shelf.
Now it seems like one of the side bricks needs to come first. The door side was the one that moved for me. Pull it out. Now interesting enough its only half firebrick the rest is the mysterious Harman fiber. So its not as heavy as it looks, place that stone side down.
Next there are these nice drop in shims in front of the rear bricks on the bottom of the stove. Pull which ever side you got the side wall from. Now that half of the rear brick (should) come easy, wiggle it around. Now be careful the center piece with Harman on it might come with it. (Mine didn't but I could see how it might). If not remove the center brick and then the second rear brick along with it's shim.
At this point I left the 2nd wall brick, why bother?
One important point learned from Branch Burner. The combustion package does not slide forward. Nor could I remove the bottom "shoe piece". At least without force.
Now I felt inside the combustion chamber. Filled right up to the brim with dark ash. I really think this was my problem.
I was able to carefully work a crevice vacuum into the gap. Use caution the rear piece of the CP was very very fragile. (I use a broom to sweep it off). I wasn't able to get all the ash out of the CP, so I scooped what I could out and worked a wire through the holes of the shoe brick.
Installation is the reverse of removal. (I've always wanted to type that). Putting the door back on is easier with 2 people but I managed with just myself.
So now to fire it up and see if this worked. Really it was only a one beer job. (On the six pack scale of home repair).

 

[branchburner]

Now I felt inside the combustion chamber. Filled right up to the brim with dark ash. I really think this was my problem.

Certainly sounds like a problem! Hope that clears it up - glad I could help out.
Well documented, I'm sure this is going to be helpful to others. It sounds like something that should be a routine maintenence procedure, and you have to wonder why Harman wouldn't make a mention of that kind of ash buildup in the manual.

 

[MANIAC]

Dill,

Great description. Sounds like you may have found your problem. I am planning on cleaning my chimney next weekend so while I am at it I am going to do what you have done as well.

Good luck

 

[Dill]

I really hope so. It wasn't that cold last night, so I couldn't try the bypass. I'm going to pick up a new top door gasket this morning. If this doesn't work, I'm selling the oakwood and going back to a vigilant.

 

[scotsman]

Dill,

Great description. Sounds like you may have found your problem. I am planning on cleaning my chimney next weekend so while I am at it I am going to do what you have done as well.

Good luck

When cleaning your chimneys, do y'all disconnect your flue pipe from your stove? How do you have it set up--direct connect or with a T or what? AND what is this delicate combustion chamber material? I was hoping for a stove with no expensive frequently replaced parts and certainly no fragile stuff. Since I'm planning to get an Oakwood, I'm reading and absorbing everything y'all write about it.

Does anyone know how to save a thread for reference, so this good info doesn't get lost in the zillions of posts the forum gets? There are many things I don't know how to do on a forum.

Thanks--

TB