Harman Oakwood smoke issues

[Dill]

Mine is setup with a rear vent system not a top vent.
The pipe runs out of the rear to a T which then runs up through a fireplace. So I pull the bottom of the t out to clean it.
I would be concerned with a top vent system and would definatly pull that apart to clean it.
The fragile CP is protected by the brick system. And I don't know if this solved it or not.
My main fustration is the fact that I can't talk direct to Harman and these are newer, not terribly common stoves so the dealers haven't run into this too much. So it turns into a fly by the seats of your pants thing. And pooling information on forums like this helps.
I also ride triumphs and bought one of the first new models when they came back into business. And I would have really been in trouble if it wasn't for internet Bullentin Boards.

 

[Dill]

Ok I was in the seacoast this morning so I swung by and talked to Bob, about the issues. And he took the time to call Harman and speak with a tech. The harman verdict is a plugged CP, and that what I did last night while a good start might not have solved the issue. They instructed me to take the CP out of the back of the stove and dump the ash out of it. So I'll see if I feel like doing this tonight.
Again I have to say how surprised I am none of this is mentioned in the instruction manaul. And when I purchased the stove I remember pointing at the holes in the shoe brick and saying "those look plugable", to which I got a resounding "of course they aren't". I don't think 10-12 cords in 2 years is heavy use, like I've said before the old VCs got 15 years before a knock apart and regasket.

 

[MishMouse]

I think the problem is in how it is designed.
The heat, smoke, and shoot goes into the chamber and it snakes around inside it.
Though this makes for a very hot fire, and long burn times, it leads to build up.
Another thing that could add to it is that when stuff falls from the inside of the flue down into it.

I myself asked the people this year during my yearly inspection to check on this and it was blown off.
If this corrects your problem I will definitely have them actually perform the maintenance on it before next
years burning season.

That is if I don't get plugged before then. 8-/

 

[scotsman]

So, is this "combustion package" thing a deal breaker for the Harman--if you had it to do over again and know what you know now? Is it essentially the same as the catalytic element in cat stoves? What is it made of? Is it too fragile to be taken out and cleaned frequently? Does one risk damaging it by doing so? What is the concensus, or is there one?

Just trying to learn . . .

 

[Dill]

I'm not sure yet. A lot depends on if I can do this and make it work again. I'm not happy with lack of info from Harman, or that this isn't covered under warranty. But like I've said the Oakwood is kind of an "also ran" for the company when you look at the pellet etc stoves. However the oakwood was the only stove (new) that fit my criteria when I was looking.
I'll let you know my decision this spring if it was in fact a deal breaker for me or not. I'm not sure if I'll get the 20+ years out of this that I was hoping for.

 

[MishMouse]

So, is this "combustion package" thing a deal breaker for the Harman--if you had it to do over again and know what you know now? Is it essentially the same as the catalytic element in cat stoves? What is it made of? Is it too fragile to be taken out and cleaned frequently? Does one risk damaging it by doing so? What is the concensus, or is there one?

Just trying to learn . . .

For me no, it wouldn't have been a deal breaker cause looking how the chamber is designed there is a possibility that gravity could take ash and deposit it within it. Looking at the parts diagram it does look like there is a way to access the chamber from the rear of the unit (Oakwood and TL-300 not the TL-200). Part 78 and 76 on the Oakwood, and 29 and 19 on the TL-300. Not that I would try it, I would only let the professionals have at it.

My Drolet had a big problem with ash build up also, the smoke traveled forward and into a chamber on top of the stove and then went out the flue. Ash build up from the flue and the stove was trapped in the chamber above the stove. Only after removing the pipe did I even notice it.

 

[Dill]

Ok its just 7 small allen screws, that came out easy. The back plate didn't want to budge so I gave a it a couple of taps with a rubber mallet. Hmmm. I figured just the metal piece would come out with the CP staying in the stove. No such luck. So when you do this its crucial to have at least 3ft clear in the back (plus you) and 2 ft on the sides to slide this by. I didn't have that much space. So I ending up knocking off a corner of the front of the CP. Luckily it was a clean break and not any of the crucial honey comb. So I furnace cemented that back into place on the CP. I took the whole thing outside and dumped a good amount of ash out of it. This is after last night's vacuuming. And then got more crud out of the stove, mainly on the sides in the back.
I was smart and waited for the wife to help me replace it. So we each got on a side of the stove and slid it back in with no problems.
Screws went in and I fired it up. Still not going enough to test. But this has to be it.
My verdict is this. If you feel comfortable doing this, I would do it over what I did last night. The back weighs 35 lbs and is a bit awkward. If you don't feel comfortable and want to remove some ash, do the minor cleaning, with the expection of over zealous vacuuming I don't think you can damage the CP as easily.

 

[branchburner]

Screws went in and I fired it up. Still not going enough to test. But this has to be it.
My verdict is this. If you feel comfortable doing this, I would do it over what I did last night. The back weighs 35 lbs and is a bit awkward. If you don't feel comfortable and want to remove some ash, do the minor cleaning, with the expection of over zealous vacuuming I don't think you can damage the CP as easily.

I hope this does it!

 

[branchburner]

So, is this "combustion package" thing a deal breaker for the Harman--if you had it to do over again and know what you know now? Is it essentially the same as the catalytic element in cat stoves? What is it made of? Is it too fragile to be taken out and cleaned frequently? Does one risk damaging it by doing so?

I would say not a deal breaker, and when I finally get that damn grill, I'll know for sure!

In hindsight I would not have bought this stove if I knew its potential problems, I might have bought a cat (which I rules out as "too much trouble"). On the other hand, it provided a great challange that led me to install my own liner and learn more about stoves that I ever would have dreamed, so I'm really glad I did buy it. (That seems a bit like my marriage - still not sure what I've learned, though.)

The deal breaker for the Harman may be new ownership of the company, which I hope doesn't turn out like the VC disaster.

 

[scotsman]

So, is this "combustion package" thing a deal breaker for the Harman--if you had it to do over again and know what you know now? Is it essentially the same as the catalytic element in cat stoves? What is it made of? Is it too fragile to be taken out and cleaned frequently? Does one risk damaging it by doing so?

I would say not a deal breaker, and when I finally get that damn grill, I'll know for sure!

In hindsight I would not have bought this stove if I knew its potential problems, I might have bought a cat (which I rules out as "too much trouble"). On the other hand, it provided a great challange that led me to install my own liner and learn more about stoves that I ever would have dreamed, so I'm really glad I did buy it. (That seems a bit like my marriage - still not sure what I've learned, though.)

The deal breaker for the Harman may be new ownership of the company, which I hope doesn't turn out like the VC disaster.

Oh great! Just what we need--another disaster. Just when I think I've found the right stove and now an ownership change! Hardly ever a good thing. They'll probably screw everything up. Well, now what should I do? Maybe I can get one before they start building them to a price, not a standard!

I sure hope you get the grill soon, otherwise you may not be able to get it at all. Do you have the rotisserie? I'd sure like to see that in operation. Please keep us posted on your progress. Thanks--

 

[MishMouse]

Oh great! Just what we need--another disaster. Just when I think I've found the right stove and now an ownership change! Hardly ever a good thing. They'll probably screw everything up. Well, now what should I do? Maybe I can get one before they start building them to a price, not a standard!

I sure hope you get the grill soon, otherwise you may not be able to get it at all. Do you have the rotisserie? I'd sure like to see that in operation. Please keep us posted on your progress. Thanks--

Actually Hearth and Home Technologies bought Harman almost a year ago. Here is what I found posted on another site about this at the time of the sale "Hahn/HHT intends to maintain Harman's position as a rival to Quadrafire in order to control greater market share. Hahn/HHT took the opportunity provided by the sale to negotiate and settle some of the debts Harman owed to suppliers. This source also thought that Mr. Harman still owns the plant and land, and said that apparently HHT is leasing it from Harman."

When working with my dealer the only changes he seen so far is he got a new distributor and the new pledge system for there ordering. Other then that it is business as usual. So from my limited knowledge of what is going on is that HHT was a good thing for Harman. As long as the dealers get better at forecasting there potential sales and oil stays below 150 there shouldn't be a problem.

In short, I didn't/wouldn't worry about it. I bought mine last Feb (before the yearly price increases came through) and had it installed in April.

 

[Dill]

It seems to have done the trick. I ran the damper closed all night and didn't get smoked out.

 

[branchburner]

Good job!
Looks like that will go on the annual maintenance list, which kind of makes the cleanout tee a moot point as far as pulling the stove out.

 

[Dill]

When you replaced the CP how was it attached to the back plate? If the 2 didn't come out attached it would be really simple.
And I'm going to replace the gasket next time. Its a very small one and pretty flattened.

 

[MishMouse]

Thanks, Dill for all the info.
This will be on the checklist before I burn next year.

 

[branchburner]

When you replaced the CP how was it attached to the back plate? If the 2 didn't come out attached it would be really simple.
And I'm going to replace the gasket next time. Its a very small one and pretty flattened.

Well, now you have me a bit concerned - My CP was not attatched. The back plate came off solo, then I pulled out the CP. Either yours was sort of fused on with ash and ceramic-fiber-rice-krispy-treats, or mine was missing something.
I don't remeber the gasket, but since it isn't lying around the living room floor I have to assume it's back there.

 

[Dill]

Well I just unbolted the permiter allen bolts. (there are 9 not 7, 3 on each side, 2 on the top and one in bottom middle).
It seemed really attached granted I didn't want to put much force on it, cause I didn't want to break it.
I was wondering it there might be an attachment behind that metal shield? But thinking back to your pieces there wasn't a bolt hole or anything.
The gasket was pretty much glued in so I doubt it would fall off.

 

[branchburner]

No bolt hole, just that hole burnt right through the back (from the guy who overfired it - showed it Bob in H. Falls this am and he concurred, overfiring).

Picked up the grill this am - tonight's the night!

 

[MishMouse]

No bolt hole, just that hole burnt right through the back (from the guy who overfired it - showed it Bob in H. Falls this am and he concurred, overfiring).

Picked up the grill this am - tonight's the night!

You will enjoy the grill, and be amazed how fast it cooks and with no smoke.

A couple of points about using it.
1) Do not put it into afterburn when you are grilling, though it might work I myself would rather have that smoke going directly out the chimney instead of into the ab chamber. You can close the top loading door to increase the heat on what your cooking.
2) Wait until the fire burns down a little if you are grilling, the best time to grill for me is in the afternoon when I get home from work and before I re-load her up.
3) Do not walk away when grilling, this thing will turn your burgers into hockey pucks in no time.
4) Find a good place where you can store your hot grill once you are done cooking. I had a slight mishap when I first cooked on the grill. I put it on the cement floor when I finished, and then went to put a few chunks of wood into the stove and I stepped right on the more pointy edge of it. (500+ grill, bare feet, poor eyesight, glasses that allows you to only see what is directly in front of you = ouch! :ahhh: )
5) For burgers you might want to do a quick spray of the grill with cooking spray to avoid some sticking.

So, far I cooked, Brats, Polish, Burgers, Onions, Mushrooms, Steaks, and Chicken on the grill all with very tasty results while making everyone in my neighborhood hungry. :coolsmile:

 

[branchburner]

Ok, now I really need to go get some lunch

 

[PS3696]

Ok its just 7 small allen screws, that came out easy. The back plate didn't want to budge so I gave a it a couple of taps with a rubber mallet. Hmmm. I figured just the metal piece would come out with the CP staying in the stove. No such luck. So when you do this its crucial to have at least 3ft clear in the back (plus you) and 2 ft on the sides to slide this by. I didn't have that much space. So I ending up knocking off a corner of the front of the CP. Luckily it was a clean break and not any of the crucial honey comb. So I furnace cemented that back into place on the CP. I took the whole thing outside and dumped a good amount of ash out of it. This is after last night's vacuuming. And then got more crud out of the stove, mainly on the sides in the back.
I was smart and waited for the wife to help me replace it. So we each got on a side of the stove and slid it back in with no problems.
Screws went in and I fired it up. Still not going enough to test. But this has to be it.
My verdict is this. If you feel comfortable doing this, I would do it over what I did last night. The back weighs 35 lbs and is a bit awkward. If you don't feel comfortable and want to remove some ash, do the minor cleaning, with the expection of over zealous vacuuming I don't think you can damage the CP as easily.

Great to hear that this fixed the issue and now everyone who has an oakwood is well aware of the issue and how to fix it. How many seasons/cords of wood did you go threw before this happened?

By the way how many beers was this? (On the six pack scale of home repair). :cheese:

Does any one have an issue with the stove doing (Puff Backs)? when the secondary ignites a large cloud of gas and the smoke puffs out all the sides of the stove and the ash pan? :bug: IS this normal?

thanks!

 

[Dill]

This was a half a beer job time wise. It took longer to find the allen wrench and mallet than to take it apart.
The difficult part was having to remove it straight back while dangling over the stove. So get behind it before trying.
We've got that smoke puff back before, check your ash pan gasket.
And it was 2 complete seasons 10-12 cords.

 

[N/A N/A]

Ok its just 7 small allen screws, that came out easy. The back plate didn't want to budge so I gave a it a couple of taps with a rubber mallet. Hmmm. I figured just the metal piece would come out with the CP staying in the stove. No such luck. So when you do this its crucial to have at least 3ft clear in the back (plus you) and 2 ft on the sides to slide this by. I didn't have that much space. So I ending up knocking off a corner of the front of the CP. Luckily it was a clean break and not any of the crucial honey comb. So I furnace cemented that back into place on the CP. I took the whole thing outside and dumped a good amount of ash out of it. This is after last night's vacuuming. And then got more crud out of the stove, mainly on the sides in the back.
I was smart and waited for the wife to help me replace it. So we each got on a side of the stove and slid it back in with no problems.
Screws went in and I fired it up. Still not going enough to test. But this has to be it.
My verdict is this. If you feel comfortable doing this, I would do it over what I did last night. The back weighs 35 lbs and is a bit awkward. If you don't feel comfortable and want to remove some ash, do the minor cleaning, with the expection of over zealous vacuuming I don't think you can damage the CP as easily.

Great to hear that this fixed the issue and now everyone who has an oakwood is well aware of the issue and how to fix it. How many seasons/cords of wood did you go threw before this happened?

By the way how many beers was this? (On the six pack scale of home repair). :cheese:

Does any one have an issue with the stove doing (Puff Backs)? when the secondary ignites a large cloud of gas and the smoke puffs out all the sides of the stove and the ash pan? :bug: IS this normal?

thanks!

Yes, if I leave the air up to high when using the after burn I get puff backs as well. So I would say its normal but not good. If you turn the air down some it will stop the puff backs.

 

[MishMouse]

Yes, if I leave the air up to high when using the after burn I get puff backs as well. So I would say its normal but not good. If you turn the air down some it will stop the puff backs.

Once you turn the air down and get the afterburn going, you can push the air back up slowly without causing the backpuffs. Also if you move the air down slowly it will also eliminate the backpuffs. They will also disappear when the temp gets colder. Do a search on this site on puffback, backpuffs and the like. If I remember right BG posted a very interesting explaination on this.

Also I would not run this stove (TL-300 or the Oakwood for that matter) on high for extended periods of time when the afterburn is activated. You could/will overfire the stove and damage the ab chamber. Remember the ab chamber is designed to burn the smoke by magnifing the temp 2-3 times of what you are seeing. So if you have your stove at 700+ and you put it into ab you could be getting over 2.1K of heat inside the chamber, that will damage your stove and most likely cause some burning. I would not move it beyond the middle notch when running it in ab. So far the highest I ever had it was a little over the 2nd notch which had the basement at 85 when it was -5 outside. The basement is 1000 sqft, 8ft high block basement and at that time it was uninsulated with 3-5 block outside exposure.

 

[N/A N/A]

Yes, if I leave the air up to high when using the after burn I get puff backs as well. So I would say its normal but not good. If you turn the air down some it will stop the puff backs.

Once you turn the air down and get the afterburn going, you can push the air back up slowly without causing the backpuffs. Also if you move the air down slowly it will also eliminate the backpuffs. They will also disappear when the temp gets colder. Do a search on this site on puffback, backpuffs and the like. If I remember right BG posted a very interesting explaination on this.

Also I would not run this stove (TL-300 or the Oakwood for that matter) on high for extended periods of time when the afterburn is activated. You could/will overfire the stove and damage the ab chamber. Remember the ab chamber is designed to burn the smoke by magnifing the temp 2-3 times of what you are seeing. So if you have your stove at 700+ and you put it into ab you could be getting over 2.1K of heat inside the chamber, that will damage your stove and most likely cause some burning. I would not move it beyond the middle notch when running it in ab. So far the highest I ever had it was a little over the 2nd notch which had the basement at 85 when it was -5 outside. The basement is 1000 sqft, 8ft high block basement and at that time it was uninsulated with 3-5 block outside exposure.

Didnt know that MishMouse, I will have to play with the stove more.