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Harman XXV Buzzing

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by moog5, Jan 12, 2006.

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  1. Rick-In-RI

    Rick-In-RI New Member

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    Last night, with the distribution blower set at its max, I went in and pushed directly on the screw.
    Sure enough the noise stopped. After shutting it down, I pulled up on the deflector far enough to wedge the gasket material directly behind the screw (what a bear that was!) I still need to apply some silicon to the screw and to seal the gasket material in place, but it seems to have done the trick (although it seems like a temporary solution to me especially if the gasket material wears out!)

    It makes me wonder if it would harm anything if the screw and/or the small section of the deflector were removed all together?

    Another solution would be to solder or tack weld the two pieces of the deflator together (Harman are you listening???) Then the screw could be safely removed?

    All I know is that whoever came up with that design should be made to sit in a room and listen to that annoying buzzing noise for 8 hours. That way he/she will put a little more thought into the next time they design something.

    PS

    Has anyone seen or heard from my dealer?

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  2. HarryBack

    HarryBack New Member

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    try replacing the screws with rivets, or using RTV silicone as a gasket....stuff is like glue, sticks well when dry.
  3. Rick-In-RI

    Rick-In-RI New Member

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    Well, my enthusiasm was short lived. When I got home last night the old Harman XXV
    was buzzing like a nest of mad hornets. So much for the “band-aid” fix that Harman gave us.

    Today, I’m contacting our local news station consumer group. Maybe a little negative television exposure will get Ocean State’s and The Harman Stove Company Attention!

    In the meantime, does anyone know how to remove the distribution blower? I see four 5/16-inch screws underneath the stove that seem to hold it in place (all four screws are close in proximity
    To on another where I would expect to see two screws at each corner of the blower.) My thinking is if I can get the blower out, then maybe I can bend the deflector up and prevent it from making contact with the blower housing.
  4. moog5

    moog5 Member

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    I believe it drops straight out the bottom (after taking the screws out). I believe the "bending the deflector" fix is what the tech tried on the third trip out (which fixed it until I got home that night).

    My XXV hasn't buzzed since Jan 22, 5 whole days have gone by without a buzz. I am feeling a bit spoiled right now. Rick, you have got to be extra frustrated since your dealer appears to be ignoring you (my dealer came out 3 separate times), then finally the Harman Rep. Maybe my Harman Rep can contact the Harman Rep in your area and get your stove the attention it needs. I still have his card and phone number, email me if you need it and I will send it to you.

    I agree with Rick, the gasket fix does seem like a bandaid approach (especially since mine buzzed for a short duration after my local (CA/Nev) Harman Rep implemented it (again ...hasn't buzzed in 5 days)

    Harryback: is the fix that my Harman Rep implemented (the gasket trick, description and picture above in this thread) the same as what Harman is telling their dealers to use? I am little confused, what exactly is making the buzz,.... is it the tip of the screw hitting the blower housing, or the two pieces of overlapping sheetmetal resonating and slapping against eachother? If it is the tip of the screw, then the gasket does seem like a bandaid fix. A rivet does sound like a better option, or possibly filing off the tip of the screw.
  5. stovemanken

    stovemanken New Member

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    There has been a lot of good infomation here, but I think the problem hasn't been isolated, but now it has been.

    Point #1: The problem with noises is duplicating them so they can be properly diagnosed, especially under controlled conditions. The first good news is, that has been done.

    Point #2: The second good news is that there is a relatively quick fix that will be available very soon, so stay close to your dealer. I haven't seen it, but it could be a "no-parts" needed or commonly available remedies (pop-rivet?). An even better fix is in the works.

    Point #3: The third point I'd like to make is that this has been a intermittant or even isolated problem. Note that HarryBack has sold many XXVs and hasn't seen the problem. There are other dealers who have seen 1 stove out of literally 100s sold. That is a two edged sword, as I mentioned in point #1, you can't hear what is the complaint if you can't duplicate it.

    Point #4: Check out any other bulletin board and you will see many postings with complaints and concerns. I had a Diesel Jetta for many years, and if you read the postings on that BB, you would never buy one! Yet I had over 150,000 miles of trouble free performance. Name any other product that has a BB following it, and you will see most of the posting are problems, not rave reviews.

    One of my favorite sayings goes something like this: If you are a doctor, you think everyone in the world is sick, because only sick people make appointments to see you. No one ever makes an appointment to stop by and say "I feel terrific! Thanks, doc, for taking such good care of me." Maybe we should take the time to let dealers and manufacturers know when and if they do something right.

    Now before someone gets too excited, I know there are good reviews on this website, and some folks do say good things about their stoves, too. My point is that human nature being what it is, we have a tendency to see the bad before the good. Another good saying is "don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good."

    SMK
  6. Rick-In-RI

    Rick-In-RI New Member

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    SMK;

    My XXV does it each and every time day-in and day-out. So duplicating the noise for my dealer (and I use that term loosely!) is easy enough to do. However, as you may have seen in my other posting, I can't get my dealer (or Harman) to service my stove at all! So, here I am caught in a catch 22. Add the fact that if I try to fix the problem myself, and something goes wrong; I’ll end up voiding the warranty!
  7. stovemanken

    stovemanken New Member

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    I can't defend your dealer; I wouldn't know him from Adam. With that being said, if he had not been informed as to a fix via a Harman service bulletin, all he could do was guess as to the cause & cure. As you can see from all the postings, there has been a lot of guessing already, and that is an expensive proposition for any dealer.

    As our host, Craig, has said before, it is unreasonable to think that ANY manufacturer has a ready supply of technicians ready to swoop in and fix an individual stove like a smoke jumper. They MUST rely on their dealer. Are some dealers better technically than others? Unquestionably! Are some better at after-sale-support than others? Absolutely! Are there training sessions offered to the dealers in an attempt to bolster their skills? Definitely! Do some dealers not take advantage of these manufacturer/rep sponsered schools? Yes, that happens.

    I believe HarryBack has said that a buyer needs to evaluate the stove AND the dealer when purchasing a stove. Having spent a career in construction equipment, I know that a good dealer can make an average product perform well. I have also seen good equipment's performance/reputatation ruined by poor dealer support. I also believe/hope Harman and your rep are aware of this, and are doing whatever can be done to improve it.

    I am only attempting to encourage you that help is indeed on the way.

    SMK
  8. HarryBack

    HarryBack New Member

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    Well said, Ken!

    BTW, I am in MA, and I did receive a bulletin from my marketing rep, NOT Harman, on a possible fix for the XXV buzzing issue. Received it about 3 weeks ago or so. Being as I believe my marketing rep is the same as the Rhode Island dealers is, Im guessing they have received it as well. Harman WONT COME OUT AND FIX YOUR STOVE. That is the dealers responsibility. Did you call and see if the dealer had any updates recently? I tried to get a copy of the document emailed to me from the marketer, but somehow in the process it got garbled....3 or 4 times actually. Dont own a scanner, so I cant scan mine.......but I can reasonably state that its quite likely someone at the dealer DID get the mailer...whether it was disseminated to other folks in the company I cant say....or maybe they tried the fixes shown and they didnt work?
  9. HarryBack

    HarryBack New Member

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    also, if you work on the stove yourself, I dont think you'll void the warrantee, so long as you dont use a sledgeghammer and axe and mangle things. Most parts are bolt-on anyways, and noone will know what you did. Heck, who doesnt tinker with stuff?
  10. Rick-In-RI

    Rick-In-RI New Member

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    Does anyone know who the Harman representative is for the RI/MA area and, if so, how I could contact him?
  11. fbelec

    fbelec Minister of Fire

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    i've been reading all the posts on this buzzing fan problem and not having a harmon or a blower on my stove i kept my fingers off the keyboard. i'm a electrician and i run across this problem with other things alot. in my experience fans usually vibrate or buzz because of a couple reasons.

    1 the fan not the motor meaning the squirrel cage or fan blade is out of balance

    2 if the motor has a starting or running capacitor one of these or both could be bad or not the right value

    3 the motor itself could be a cheap piece of junk.( in the case of most small fan motors it's usually the case)

    if you pull it all apart and take the fan off the motor and turn on the motor without the speed control hooked up and it vibrates then the motor is junk.

    also sometimes the speed controls are junk and they will make a good fan motor vibrate

    those are a couple of things you can check. i know it's not right that you bought something and right out of the box it's not working right but if you like the stove and the manufac is not going to do anything but jerk you around then check out the few things that i wrote about here and possibly buy a motor of higher quality. if it's the motor take the motor and fan blade down to a motor shop they'll fix you up.

    hope i helped in my small way.
    good luck guys
    frank
  12. Rick-In-RI

    Rick-In-RI New Member

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    Can you believe it, my dealer actually called and left a message on my machine yesterday!

    He tells me that Harman is working on a fix (I thought that Harman already had the fix?) and that he will come out and fix the problem in two weeks.

    As I told pete S and Harryback, I don't know if it was the emails and letters that I sent to Harman or this forum, but someone must have jumped all over them and told them to get their act together.

    So, at this point, I'll wait and see if he shows up and fixes the problem before I clear his name.

    I'll keep you guys posted!
  13. moog5

    moog5 Member

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    My Harman XXV is now buzzing again, (and loud!), just like it did on day one. $3000 for what? I called my dealer and requested that they just pick this one up and replace it with one that doesn't buzz. This is getting old, real old.
  14. Rick-In-RI

    Rick-In-RI New Member

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    Pete S,

    Well, in my case, Ocean State called to say that they are waiting to hear from HARMAN and that they will be out to fix it the following week. Well, two weeks have come and gone and not one word from them (Big Surprise there!)

    I can't believe that it's taking HARMAN this long to come up with a solution (God only knows the solutions that they have proposed so far have all failed!)

    Like you, I am so frustrated, that I'm ready to turn it over to my lawyer and get this $3,000 piece of scrap iron out of my house and get my money back.

    At this point, rubbing two sticks together would have been just as effective.
  15. Rick-In-RI

    Rick-In-RI New Member

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    Pete S

    Call your dealer right away.


    After I read and replied to your post this morning, I decided to call Harman directly.
    Well, after I read them the riot act about my dealer and the problem with the XXV, I
    got a call from one Harman’s reps. He told me that they recently had one of their
    XXV’s act up prior to shipping. After analyzing the problem, they were able to isolate
    It to a steel plate located at the bottom of the exhaust. This steel plate is slotted (it will be screwed in all future XXV’s) and works itself loose (In fact one of the forums participants—whose identity will remain anonymous—had told me this several weeks ago.)

    The bottom line is that they need to apply a CLAMP!!! (I just hope that it’s not another “band-aid” fix like all the other!!!!!) However they swear up and down that this will fix it once and for all.

    Also, I guess calling them paid off because my dealer is coming out on Monday to fix it.

    I'll keep you posted.
  16. galen

    galen New Member

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    I was going to buy a Harman but now have second thoughts about warranty backed issues. This problem should never had gone this far. Harman in their ads like to show how they started out in a house on the block. Sounds like they are too big to be bothered with "small " customer issues. They made the stove, they should send someone out to fix it. The dealers are clearly in the dark and Harman is wasting not only the deals time but the customers time too. I have changed my opinion of Harman. This is clearly a warranty issue. Someone stated that they didn't want to work on the stove them selves because they didn't want to void the warranty. What warranty? I'm going to look somewhere else. I'm glad I found the forum so as not to make a costly mistake.
  17. pelletheat

    pelletheat New Member

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    I don't think the warranty is the issue. Sounds like the dealer needed a kick in the backside from his sales rep to get off his lazy A$$ to get out and service his customer.
    I personally don't expect GE,Amana,Whirlpool to show up at my house everytime I have a problem!!!!
    No return phone call in 2 weeks from the date of the original call made by Rick in RI, sounds like the dealer is the one avoiding the problem.

    Just my thoughts, :sick:
  18. HarryBack

    HarryBack New Member

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    I find it truly amazing really, that noone can solve this "buzzing" dilemma. Ive sold quite a few XXV's, but none of mine have "buzzed". It seems to me to be a vibrational noise. Whats vibrating? One the buzzing is isolated, it would seem to be fairly easy to fix. Harman has sent out a couple of reccommendations as to what to do, but it either doesnt get to the dealers, or the dealers dont read them, or they are inaccurate. :sick:
  19. galen

    galen New Member

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    Well also Harry, is the fact that its amazing that is problem with the stove has taken this long to fix. This was a new stove. In my business, I have three machines that cost me over three hundred thousand. I can call the company any time and trouble shoot them. I have owned them for ten years now and I think I know them better than the techs do. We are not talking rocket science here. I would have had that thing tore apart by now and have called the factory and said hey! You got a problem! But to jack around for weeks and months. There is just no excuse for this. I know that most are not as mechanically incline as some but someone should have taken care of this. I still fault Harman. They made it, period. There is a home show in ST. Joe Missouri today and there's a Harman dealer there. I'm going to go there today and see if he has had this problem and if there is a XXV there, I'm going to look at it.
  20. pjmac

    pjmac New Member

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    I have had my Harman XXV up and running for one week and it too makes a buzzing noise. My noise just comes and goes. It seems the longer it runs the lease I am hearing the noise. The noise is coming from the distrubution blower and not the auger. My dealer said that there is a fix by using a 4-1/2" hose clamp. I think that Harman could come up with a better fix than something that sound like a cob job fix. That would be like buying a new car and the dealer says to just use a coat hanger or duct tape and fix the problem.


    pjmac
  21. moog5

    moog5 Member

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    My dealer promptly called back Friday and left a message and said the rep will be out to try the latest fix this Monday or Tuesday. I haven't spoke to them, but again must insist that they just bring out a different xxv stove. If they have a demo model in the sales room I'll take that one, switch it for mine, then they can work on this one in their store.

    Not sure what the hose clamp fix is about, but if they plan to stick it on the axle of the blower to keep the blower from sliding over and rubbing, it seems to me that it won't be balanced very well. Does anyone have a better description of what this hose clamp fix is about?
  22. galen

    galen New Member

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    Went to the home show and acted stupid. Ask some very pointed questions and the salesperson said right up front the the 25 has had some problems but they have been fixed. I said what problems?? He siad it was in the blower motor. And it had been recalled. Oh really! How many? dozens but its been taken care of. OK I didn't want to argue. But this tells me one thing. Harman knows this of this problem. I overall think its a minor problem that can be taken care of easily after looking at the stove today. But I seen a couple of new stove I have never seen before which were a Bixby. And Amaizablase. These are corn stoves Has anyone heard of them?
  23. HarryBack

    HarryBack New Member

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    Ive never heard of a "recall"....and i read every piece of mail....good and junk...that I get. Ive never heard of a "recall" at all. As Ive stated MANY times before, Ive not had any buzzing XXV's, but Im sure they exist, as I read about PeteS and all....he wouldnt post unless he had noises. And its also true that noone can find out what the buzzing is? Personally, I guess Id suggest going to the stove and listening for the buzz...by ear or stethoscope....find out whats vibrating, and fix it. I hear its the distributuin fan, and it makes sense you'd hear it more at times, because its a variable speed fan. The infamous "radiator clamp fix" secures the shroud housing....hard to explain where it is, but, its fed above the exhaust port from the combustion fan side, out to the other side, and around, tightened, and it supposedly stops the buzzing....ive seen the pictures of it, but havent done it myself....havent needed to. If I have to, I will. We get to most warrantee issues pretty quickly, usually same day or next, depending on when it calls in. Most fixes are pretty easy, since most actually involve inadequate cleaning, tho im sure its not the case in this instance.
  24. galen

    galen New Member

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    Harryback, I think it was just a line he was feeding me. They had a trailer setup outside The XXV and P45 where both burning. It was very cold yesterday and I stood in front of them and they really push the hot air. Both very nice looking. The Bixby and Amazablaze were there but not hot. The Bixby was $3800 and the Amazablaze was $1300,$1700 . I just can't see spending 4K for a stove. Thats a lot of Propane. And a lot of moving parts. But nice. I'm now checking out the ST. Croix, heard good things about them as a company.
  25. Rick-In-RI

    Rick-In-RI New Member

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    Harry

    The latest, greatest fix as you had mentioned:

    So let's recap what we know at this point.

    Fix #1 - Place gasket material or silicone between the distribution blower and the shroud.
    FAILED!

    Fix #2 - The screw holding to two sections of the shroud together need to be backed off.
    Then place gasket material behind the screw and between the distribution blower
    and the shroud. Another option was to use silicone in place of the gasket material
    FAILED!

    Fix #3 - Replace the distribution blower's motor. FAILED!

    Fix # 4- Apply a 4 1/2 hose clamp--The Jury is out

    I don't know about anyone else, but, as I have said several times, these are "Band-Aid" fixes
    and I don't have much faith in any of them.

    In any case, my dealer called (finally) and is supposed to come out this afternoon to apply fix # 4. Having said that, when I asked him what time he would be arriving, I got the "I have to check my schedule and let you know." Translation: I'm not going to show up at all !!!
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