We are considering a pellet stove for additional heat in a 1500 sq. ft. first floor area. Our home is now heated with oil, and we need more ambient heat on the first floor for an elderly parent without turning up the oil heat to 72 all the time. The arrangement on the first floor really only accommodates a pellet stove and only in one place in the family room due to window and door placements and a semi-open floor plan. We don't have the space and venting requirements for a wood stove, plus the pellets seem more manageable in our situation (considering the elderly parent). We are considering models from the following companies: Country Stoves, St. Croix, Quadra-Fire, and Harman. We haven't read too many comments about Country Stoves or St. Croix, and they seem to be a few hundred dollars cheaper. Does anyone have any comments about these brands - or all four in comparison - in terms of reliability and functioning? Is there a brand to avoid? Thanks.
Harmon, Quadra, Country Stoves, St. Croix pellet stoves?
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MountainStoveGuy
Minister of Fire
More so then a brand to avoid, i would have to say its more important to find a dealer you can work with. A lousy dealer is much worse then a lousy stove. I dont know country, or st croix, but harman and quad both are good stoves with there on set of problems. All pellet stoves have issues to some point and require tinkering. Harman and Quad are some of the best on the market.
HarryBack
New Member
I as well have to second MSG's reccomendation. Find an established dealer or two, research the products, get pricing, make sure you are making apples-to-apples comaparisons.....the dealer is perhaps the most important part.....if they dont have the time to spend with you answering your questions, they likely arent the dealerto deal with, even if they are the cheapest. In almost all things these days, ya get what ya pay for. I'll not comment on one brand over the other, as again, the dealer is important.liv said:
Hard to know how reputable a dealer is. We did check local Better Business Bureaus but only two of the three places are listed. One place only sells stoves (wood and pellet) and has been around for a long time, but they do not sell pellets, only stoves (the Quad place). The Harman place sells stoves and pellets, but only to customers who buy stoves and he won't deliver to our area. Our friends bought their stove here but no BBB information is available. The last place sells the two lesser-known brands but it is also a garden center. The salesperson spent a long time with us and was quite knowledgeable, this place has a lot of pellets and will deliver anywhere. But I can't find anything on these two brands as far as reliability. Nothing is ever easy!
HarryBack
New Member
liv said:
I cant stand by and say that one dealer is better than another, just because they are/arent a member of the BBB. Many stove outfits as well dont sell pellets because it is difficult to make money in them unless you do it in a "big" way. Many also are skeptical of the pellet supplies and would prefer to avoid the animosity which occurs when/if pellets become in short supply, which is also why some dealers only sell pellets to folks who buy stoves from them. As for reliability, first, look into the warrantees, read them carefully. How long are they? Is labor included? Travel time? What specifically ISNT included in the warrantee? Cruise the forums like you are now, but not only here, which is an excellent resource, probably the best resource for stoves (not a great political resource, unless you are totally far left... ;-P ), but there are a few others. Keep in mind tho, often forum-posters are upset consumers who only are trying to bash, whereas far fewer happy customers will post at all. If you do chose to buy from a dealer who doesnt sell pellets, make darn sure you do have a source for them, and also get your winters' supply long before fall! A month or two's worth of aggravation at looking at those pellets is much better than the aggravation you'll get in late fall when you cant get pellets for your stove.
liv said:
Liv, I agree with MSG and can personally speak for the Quadrafire as being a reliable stove with low maintenance. I think they are a bit easier to operate than a Harman, but that stove has a good reputation as well. Having good local service is pretty important. You want the stove installed properly, adjusted and ready to use before you pay the final bill and be sure they've taken the time to thoroughly explain how to operate it.
Do you have a place to store a large amount of pellets? You should be prepared to store up to three palettes (3 tons) of pellets for the best savings. Each one will take roughly a 4 ft. by 4 ft. space. They must be kep dry. If you can store 3 tons, you should pay only one delivery fee. In our area this is $30 to $45, so you want to minimize extra deliveries. The alternative is to pick up a 1/2 ton or so at a time, but that can mean paying a per bag instead of a per ton price, which can be a lot more. Some dealers will store the 1/2 pallet for you, some won't best to ask. Let us know where you live and maybe someone has already scoped out a good supplier in your area.
i have a country flame and it warm it is a insert price is around $2,100 or so they redid the fire box and it is great
We are in south-central MA. The prices of pellets locally are currently about $250 per ton, but we were told that prices would be going up to $265-275 in June. We haven't called too many places for prices, however.
I believe Country Flame and Country Stoves are two different companies.
I believe Country Flame and Country Stoves are two different companies.
Shane
Minister of Fire
All of those brands suck. I don't sell them!
Nasty brand loyalty aside all the brands you mentioned are a good quality product. Ease of use and cleaning is fairly comparable. From your writing go with the garden store. They have what you're looking for. A decent stove and a good stock of pellets they're willing to deliver to you. The last thing I'd check on is what their service department is like. Are they NFI certified, this doesn't mean they're the best or better than one without the cert. but like the bbb membership it's a good sign.
Nasty brand loyalty aside all the brands you mentioned are a good quality product. Ease of use and cleaning is fairly comparable. From your writing go with the garden store. They have what you're looking for. A decent stove and a good stock of pellets they're willing to deliver to you. The last thing I'd check on is what their service department is like. Are they NFI certified, this doesn't mean they're the best or better than one without the cert. but like the bbb membership it's a good sign.country flame and country stove are diffrent,,,, all stoves are not perfect they all have issues from what i have learned when i was shopping for a stove
I'll see if I can find out the names of the installers that work for these stove places to check on the NFI certification. Thanks for the information.
Mike Wilson
New Member
liv said:
Skip the pellet stove completely and use the savings to buy oil. 275/ton for pellets is equal to 2.66/gallon for oil. Or just run out and get a Harman DVC-500 instead... its a direct vent coal stoker, so no chimney is needed, just like a pellet stove... and I am sure you can get anthracite up there. Plus coal would have to cost 475/ton to equal the energy costs you mentioned above... and you can probably get it for 200/ton, which is like buying pellets for 115/ton.
Fuel cost calculator
-- Mike
Mike Wilson
New Member
I don't think I want coal. In fact, I can't do coal (or a wood stove) because I can't vent through a chimney. The house isn't set up for an additional chimney, and I wouldn't want to replace the oil burner with coal outright. I really would like solar as our house's roof is south-facing and is never shaded. But the cost of a solar heating system, even just supplemental, is much more than a pellet stove and would take longer to recoup. I don't think we will be in this house long enough to realize any savings from solar.
Right now we are paying $2.56/gal for oil. My husband thinks it will go up over $3 next winter. Of course pellets will likely go up too because everything is tied into the price of oil, but we would buy four tons of pellets now and lock in the price. My question is about the 2007-2008 price of pellets and beyond: How sky high will they go - if available? Our need too is ambient heat on the first floor for an elderly parent. So we need something putting out heat on the first floor.
Right now we are paying $2.56/gal for oil. My husband thinks it will go up over $3 next winter. Of course pellets will likely go up too because everything is tied into the price of oil, but we would buy four tons of pellets now and lock in the price. My question is about the 2007-2008 price of pellets and beyond: How sky high will they go - if available? Our need too is ambient heat on the first floor for an elderly parent. So we need something putting out heat on the first floor.
Liv, one thing to consider is having your heating system zoned so that there is a separate thermostat in the room that needs more heat. (Is this forced air or hot water?) Also, how efficient is your oil system? Is it well insulated and serviced?
When we moved in 2 1/2 years ago, we added on a large section of the house and also updated the oil burner. So the burner is only 2 years old and gets yearly service. It's forced hot water baseboard heat. The room that would have the stove is on its own thermostat, and then there's a thermostat located in the middle of the original part of the house that adjusts the heat for the remaining 2/3 of the first floor. Problem is, the first floor elderly parent's bedroom is on the far opposite corner of the first floor in what was a living room. I know there's little chance that his bedroom will get much heat from this stove, being so far away, but at least the adjacent and open kitchen/family room/dining room area will get extra heat and he will perceive the whole house to be warmer - or should.
I guess that is what makes a stove that only heats 1800-2000 sq. ft. (about 40,000 BTU) seem perhaps not enough to get heat over to the other end of the house and then some, figuring 1800 in reality might be more like 1200 or less and we need 1500 and more. Then we'd have to run the stove at high most of the time too. Why is it that some 40,000 BTU stoves say they will heat up to 2200 or 2500 sq. ft. while others say they only do 1500-1800? If we only compare stoves with more than 40,000 BTU then there are fewer models that we have seen to consider: Harman's P68 and Quad's Mt. Vernon. The Mt. Vernon may be just physically too large for the corner where we can put it. My husband likes the design of the Country Stoves Winslow because the side opens easily with a magnetic latch and you can access the back through the side very easily for cleaning and service. Plus the warranty seems good and it has a large burn pot, but it only does up to 2000 sq. ft.
We were thinking a wireless remote stove thermostat would be best. I know the Quad and Country Stoves have one available. The Harmans have a wire thermostat but my friends say they don't use theirs. They just adjust the stove manually. We'd need to put a stove thermostat about 24 ft. away and nearer to the center of the first floor to better gauge the heat needed. So for Harman a wire would have to run across the room. I admit I didn't care for the wire sensor on the Harman.
Now what about bottom versus top-feed systems? It seems you get clinkers no matter which you get, depending on the fuel.
I guess that is what makes a stove that only heats 1800-2000 sq. ft. (about 40,000 BTU) seem perhaps not enough to get heat over to the other end of the house and then some, figuring 1800 in reality might be more like 1200 or less and we need 1500 and more. Then we'd have to run the stove at high most of the time too. Why is it that some 40,000 BTU stoves say they will heat up to 2200 or 2500 sq. ft. while others say they only do 1500-1800? If we only compare stoves with more than 40,000 BTU then there are fewer models that we have seen to consider: Harman's P68 and Quad's Mt. Vernon. The Mt. Vernon may be just physically too large for the corner where we can put it. My husband likes the design of the Country Stoves Winslow because the side opens easily with a magnetic latch and you can access the back through the side very easily for cleaning and service. Plus the warranty seems good and it has a large burn pot, but it only does up to 2000 sq. ft.
We were thinking a wireless remote stove thermostat would be best. I know the Quad and Country Stoves have one available. The Harmans have a wire thermostat but my friends say they don't use theirs. They just adjust the stove manually. We'd need to put a stove thermostat about 24 ft. away and nearer to the center of the first floor to better gauge the heat needed. So for Harman a wire would have to run across the room. I admit I didn't care for the wire sensor on the Harman.
Now what about bottom versus top-feed systems? It seems you get clinkers no matter which you get, depending on the fuel.
MountainStoveGuy
Minister of Fire
One thing to check out, some pellet stoves use a millivolt thermostat which will have distance regulations, some use 24 volt thermostat which can be ran as far as you want. Millivolt systems work best 20' or less.
A lot of people run the Harmon without a thermostat. Actually, I think it has a built-in room temp sensor, so is still regulated. Harmon is bottom fed, Quad is top. Both have done an excellent job with their feed system.
Mike Wilson
New Member
liv said:
Which is exactly why I suggested the Harman DVC-500... no chimney required, just like a pellet stove. Just a suggestion, if you don't like coal, so be it. Enjoy burning bunny pellets... :coolcheese:
-- Mike
Corie
Minister of Fire
I'm (not suprisingly) jumping on the coal band wagon.
At this point in the game, you'll have to burn that pellet stove for quite a few years before you ever realize a savings. Whereas, you buy a coal stove, you start seeing savings in a much shorter time period.
Case in point, sold parents pellet stove (Jamestown) for 1600 dollars. Was able to buy use stove, new pipe, new stone for hearth and 1.5 tons of coal with that money. So within a year, they were already saving money because coal is about 130 a ton.
At this point in the game, you'll have to burn that pellet stove for quite a few years before you ever realize a savings. Whereas, you buy a coal stove, you start seeing savings in a much shorter time period.
Case in point, sold parents pellet stove (Jamestown) for 1600 dollars. Was able to buy use stove, new pipe, new stone for hearth and 1.5 tons of coal with that money. So within a year, they were already saving money because coal is about 130 a ton.
HarryBack
New Member
ok Liv, the above folks are correct in saying that coal is cheaper per BTU than pellets. The thing with coal is that you have to absolutely RELIGOUSLY remove the ashes every day, and then theres the coal gas smell....if you smell that, shut the unit down and figure out where its coming from. Weve sold several DVC500's, and they are greatly improved over the early DVC500's.....not terribly cheap tho, especially after you factor in the pipe, made only by Harman. Not only that, but coal ash is HIGHLY acidic, so dont put it on your petunias.....its great for traction in the driveway, but it tracks inside pretty well. As with pellets, make sure you have a good supply of coal.....from MA, that shouldnt be a problem. Pellets arent really a problem either, as long as you order early.
As for a thermostat, Harman's is wired, but can easily be extended, tho I fail to understand why you would do that. They are radiant heaters with a distribution fan assist, so why wouldnt you see what setting you need to set the room tempo probe of the stove at the keep the elderly folks warm? In my home, I know I need a 10 degree differential between my first and second floor....if its 75 degrees downstairs, in my house, it'll be 65 upstairs....I didnt extend the probe or anything.
As for a thermostat, Harman's is wired, but can easily be extended, tho I fail to understand why you would do that. They are radiant heaters with a distribution fan assist, so why wouldnt you see what setting you need to set the room tempo probe of the stove at the keep the elderly folks warm? In my home, I know I need a 10 degree differential between my first and second floor....if its 75 degrees downstairs, in my house, it'll be 65 upstairs....I didnt extend the probe or anything.
I'm with Mike & Corrie, go with the DVC 500. You should only have to remove ashes & fill once every other or third day. The cost is pretty comparable to the Harman or County pellet stoves. If you have your stove installed & working properly, you should never be getting the smell Harry speaks of. If you can go straight out, the pipe is included with the stove. You will break even much quicker burning coal than you will burning pellets. Ask your local dealer for pellet & coal prices over the last 5 years. Coal is much easier to get and the price is much more stable.
One other thing, the BBB is not necessarily a valid endorsement. In Michigan, I would have to pay $450 per year to be listed with them, so they could tell potential customers good things about me. I am NOT a member, I see no reason to PAY someone for a good report. "I will be happy tho to give you the name & phone # of several recent customers, they will give you a first hand opinion." In Michigan, I would have to pay for a good report, but if any complaints had been filed against me, they pass those out for free. The BBB is a for profit company, not a service.
One other thing, the BBB is not necessarily a valid endorsement. In Michigan, I would have to pay $450 per year to be listed with them, so they could tell potential customers good things about me. I am NOT a member, I see no reason to PAY someone for a good report. "I will be happy tho to give you the name & phone # of several recent customers, they will give you a first hand opinion." In Michigan, I would have to pay for a good report, but if any complaints had been filed against me, they pass those out for free. The BBB is a for profit company, not a service.
drizler
Minister of Fire
Considering the price of pellets how about something that will burn corn as well> I don't know the corn situation in your area but it surely isn't cheap here in Northern NY and it is still much cheaper than pellets. At the most I paid $150 a ton last year for the really dry stuff bagged like pellets. Aside from the obvious better heat output of corn theres not much difference between it and pellets. FWIW you certainly can burn a mix of corn in with your pellets with most stoves to save money. From what I hear nearly all of them will do 50% and most will do more but won't be able to shut down and restart using the stoves automatic settings. Thats not much of an issue if you don't mind relighting it once in a while. Mine shuts down to idle mode 10,000 btu which is necessary to keep the place warm anyways. Another FWIW is the millivolt thermostat. I hae one of those with my Countryside and the only auto setback stat it will work with is a WHITE ROGERS. The auto setback is nice so the stove can run less during the wee hours yet fire up to warm the house an hour before everyone starts getting up. None of these stoves are good a heating a cold room quickly so starting early is critical. You really should check out the yahoo pellet and corn heat groups for lots more information. The Iburncorn.com website is crippled for the time being but you can still search out a lot of good info there.
One thing for sure, don't wait till Fall to get a stove. It seems they are swimming in them right now and the direct internet sale prices reflect that. Wait till November and you will be waiting just like everyone who waited for the last two seasons. Thats the last thing you want to be doing.
One thing for sure, don't wait till Fall to get a stove. It seems they are swimming in them right now and the direct internet sale prices reflect that. Wait till November and you will be waiting just like everyone who waited for the last two seasons. Thats the last thing you want to be doing.
I have checked out the Yahoo pellet list. In terms of corn stoves, what other large stoves are out there that state specifically they will burn corn? I know the Quadra Mt. Vernon will do a 50/50 mix, and I was told by the dealerthat the Harman P68 can burn about 30% corn. The Magnum Countryside (which we haven't seen locally) and the Harman PC45 corn stove still seem a little too undersized for our needs. The Magnum says it goes up to 50,000 BTU but how much square footage is that realistically? It seems harder to get corn around here than pellets right now. Considering we would do best with the larger stoves (over 60,000 BTU), our choices are quite limited.
HarryBack
New Member
liv said:
Ive seen the p68 burn up to 50% corn successfully, and seen the p61 burn pea pellets....yup, they are green! We havent found a reliable supplier of corn...reliable being an acceptable moisture content...as the moisture increases, the btu content lessens greatly....I think you are shooting for about 12-15% moisture. Corn versus pellets is a debate here. Corn is cheaper and if optimal moisture, can burn hotter. But corn is also more work, as its leaves more deposits in the stove, will eventually eat up pellet pipe, attracts rodents, and doesnt over-summer well given our humid New Engalnd summers. As a dealer, one of our biggest problems is getting people to maintain their stoves. Most of our service calls are just that....a dirty stove, and as stated somehwere above, I shudder to think about the calls with alot of corn/pellet units. As for warrantee, Harman will still warrant the units electrically for 3 years, and the stove body for 6 years, against defects in workmanship or materials, irregarless of whether you are burning straight pellets or pellet/corn. They wont cover the cost of a service call for a improperly maintained unit.
If I have to stress something here, Liv, its the following:
1. Buy your pellets EARLY
2. Try to get a whole seasons supply at once
3. Clean your stove as per the manufacturer
4. Buy your pellets Early
(oops...but this is important)Good luck, let us know what happens! Dont let those militant wood scroungers give you a hard time! ;-P
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