having trouble heating with my stove, it's too cold inside!

[Barrett]

Hopefully you guys can help me out. I have a 2 month old freestanding Quadrafire Castile. It seems that our house should be warmer. Or at least warm. A meat thermometer inserted into a heat tube only got up to 170 degrees. The exiting air is warm, I can hold my hands right in front of it all day. The vent pipe is very, very hot- too hot to touch. Running on medium 24/7, it never gets over 63 inside. Please help me before winter really kicks in!

Here’s the details-
*1200 sf house, everything is closed off except for living room, dining room, kitchen, and bathroom. So maybe 800 sf to heat. The stove is rated for 1800 sf.
*I installed this myself, the stealer wanted $1700. Parts cost me around $400.
*It is vented into a 15 foot tall chimney, 6”x8” clay liner, no metal pipe inserted.
*Had a chimney sweep clean and inspect the chimney. No problems.
*It is very clean, I took it apart and cleaned thoroughly a week ago, no change.
*No outside air kit, the house is old and leaky.
*The feed rate is set almost to high. I've played around with all settings.
*The flames are good and tall and yellow and lively, almost too bright to look at.
*Burning a bag a day.
*The ashpot gets about 1-2 inches of hard clinkers in it every day, I have to chop them up to get them to dump out.
*Hooked up to the thermostat that came with the stove, set to 70, lowest anticipator #.
*Burning PA Pellets, can’t find anything else to try out until “next year”.
*SE Vermont, it’s been around 40 days, 25 nights. I dread really cold winter!

I’ve attached a pic so you can see the vent pipe set up, etc.

Any ideas out there? My thought is that the heat is going out the chimney rather than into the house. What would cause this? We are having troubles with the dealer, who is not factory authorized, and pizzed that we didn’t pay them to install it, so not much help there.

Thanks a ton! So thanks $330, if I could buy a ton around here. But that’s another post.

Barrett

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Well Barrett fancy meeting you here.

Sure sounds like you have a straight through heat pump from your description.

Was it putting out more heat when you first got it running?

Is there an air adjustment on it, if there is have you fiddled with that?

When you cleaned the stove did you get behind all baffles including any around the heat exchanger?

Did you check for any blockage in the heat exchanger system including the blower and it's intake?

How tall are your ceilings in the "old house" you own?

Is the upstairs also open to the stove, such as via a stairwell?

Are there any air gaps that would allow a large amount of new cold air to enter the room the stove is in?

I think that is enough questions for now ;-) .

 

[StoveMiser]

I used a dozen or so bags of PA pellets at the end of last season. In terms of heat output, those pellets are the worst I have tried. That could be part of your problem.

 

[kinsmanstoves]

Hopefully you guys can help me out. I have a 2 month old freestanding Quadrafire Castile. It seems that our house should be warmer. Or at least warm. A meat thermometer inserted into a heat tube only got up to 170 degrees. The exiting air is warm, I can hold my hands right in front of it all day. The vent pipe is very, very hot- too hot to touch. Running on medium 24/7, it never gets over 63 inside. Please help me before winter really kicks in!

Here’s the details-
*1200 sf house, everything is closed off except for living room, dining room, kitchen, and bathroom. So maybe 800 sf to heat. The stove is rated for 1800 sf.
*I installed this myself, the stealer wanted $1700. Parts cost me around $400.
*It is vented into a 15 foot tall chimney, 6”x8” clay liner, no metal pipe inserted.
*Had a chimney sweep clean and inspect the chimney. No problems.
*It is very clean, I took it apart and cleaned thoroughly a week ago, no change.
*No outside air kit, the house is old and leaky.
*The feed rate is set almost to high. I've played around with all settings.
*The flames are good and tall and yellow and lively, almost too bright to look at.
*Burning a bag a day.
*The ashpot gets about 1-2 inches of hard clinkers in it every day, I have to chop them up to get them to dump out.
*Hooked up to the thermostat that came with the stove, set to 70, lowest anticipator #.
*Burning PA Pellets, can’t find anything else to try out until “next year”.
*SE Vermont, it’s been around 40 days, 25 nights. I dread really cold winter!

I’ve attached a pic so you can see the vent pipe set up, etc.

Any ideas out there? My thought is that the heat is going out the chimney rather than into the house. What would cause this? We are having troubles with the dealer, who is not factory authorized, and pizzed that we didn’t pay them to install it, so not much help there.

Thanks a ton! So thanks $330, if I could buy a ton around here. But that’s another post.

Barrett ]

Just a few questions
Is this a slab house?
insulation in walls and ceiling?
height of ceiling?
if you are burning only a bag a day with feed rate on high something is off. I think if you had feed rate on high you would be at 2 1/2 bags a day
170 degrees at the heat exchanges is about right if your probe was touching metal. I just checked mine using a multi meter and got 128 degrees not touching metal and at #2 of #5 available settings
clinkers can be caused by not enough air or bad pellets.

Eric

 

[sydney1963]

Just my guess, but I think you have too much vent pipe. Please see info below. Just from what I can see from your pic, I'm guessing 16.5 EVL just to the chimney. How far up through the chimney does it go?

Here is the link:

http://www.nevelsstoves.com/articles/Venting-your-pellet-stove.htm


Pellet stoves have to push the exhaust air through the vent pipe with the stove's exhaust fan. With less restriction your pellet stove will breathe easier and burn more efficiently. First let's clarify the word restriction. Restrictions come from several different items.

45 degree elbows
90 degree elbows
Horizontal distance
Vertical distance
Elevation where you live.

A rule of thumb equation we are using has been adopted by most pellet manufactures. The equation is called the sum of Equivalent Vent Length (EVL). All of the above mentioned venting restrictions have been assigned EVL values as follows:

Each 45 degree elbow = 3 EVL
Each 90 degree elbow and Tees with cleanout = 5 EVL
Each foot of horizontal run = 1 EVL
Each foot of Vertical run = 0.5 EVL
Elevations above 3000 ft with an EVL of 7 must adapt to 4 inch vent pipe.

If your installation is below 3000ft, we would need to do some math. The rule of thumb equations is that if the sum of the EVL is 15 or greater, then the pellet vent pipe would be increased to 4 inch diameter pellet vent pipe.

Hope this helps.

 

[j00fek]

i would try opening the damper all the way, those exchangers should be pushing out good hot air... clean that burn pot as well! i use a wire brush in mine

 

[Kenny1]

Make sure your venting is per the manual, and remember, burning one bag per day is about the same as running a plug in electric space heater.

Cheers

Kenny

 

[j00fek]

Just my guess, but I think you have too much vent pipe. Please see info below. Just from what I can see from your pic, I'm guessing 20 EVL.

Here is the link:

http://www.nevelsstoves.com/articles/Venting-your-pellet-stove.htm


Pellet stoves have to push the exhaust air through the vent pipe with the stove's exhaust fan. With less restriction your pellet stove will breathe easier and burn more efficiently. First let's clarify the word restriction. Restrictions come from several different items.

45 degree elbows
90 degree elbows
Horizontal distance
Vertical distance
Elevation where you live.

A rule of thumb equation we are using has been adopted by most pellet manufactures. The equation is called the sum of Equivalent Vent Length (EVL). All of the above mentioned venting restrictions have been assigned EVL values as follows:

Each 45 degree elbow = 3 EVL
Each 90 degree elbow and Tees with cleanout = 5 EVL
Each foot of horizontal run = 1 EVL
Each foot of Vertical run = 0.5 EVL
Elevations above 3000 ft with an EVL of 7 must adapt to 4 inch vent pipe.

If your installation is below 3000ft, we would need to do some math. The rule of thumb equations is that if the sum of the EVL is 15 or greater, then the pellet vent pipe would be increased to 4 inch diameter pellet vent pipe.

Hope this helps.

hmm i counted like 11evl there...might be wrong, never herd of that till you showed me...

 

[woodsman23]

PA pellets are the worst pellet ever, i know this because 3 of my neighbors have them and they get crap for heat. Simply put they suck eggs. Way to many fines, pellets crumble in your hand. They went and got PA junk (were cheaper) when the dry creek plant is 10 minutes away go figure (10 bucks more per ton). The PA pellets do not even look like normal pellets they are Pouris. I would go out and get a couple bags of another brand and try them before doing anything else like adjusting the stove setting and rule out the pellets as being the problem. This is the best and simplest way to start in MHO.

 

[Shortstuff]

I own a Castile free-standing and also installed it myself. It seems like you and I have a similar setup, as my exhaust from the stove exits directly into a cleanout "T" and then straight up 15' with 3" Simpson Pellet Pro and terminates 2' above our roof ridge. Our house is a total of 2150 sq.ft. on one level like a long ranch-style house, but we are only using the Castile to heat one end at 820 sq.ft.

Crawlspace underneath that end of the house with no floor insulation, and ceilings are all 9' high with minimum R-30 insulation. We gutted this house over the past 13 years and made all our exterior walls 2"x6" with R-19 insulation. The house is well-sealed but not air tight. Our stove runs on a programmable thermostat set at 66° during the night and 68° during the day. As we both know there are no adjustments for air, but the pellet feed plate is adjustable. Low-Med-High settings are what we have and ours has run on Medium since day one. We are using Barefoot hardwood pellets which to me are a really good pellet. My pellet feed plate inside the hopper is as far down as it can possibly go and if I could, I would lower it another 1/4". We are not using any OAK (Outside Air Kit).

It just so happened that I placed a temperature probe inside on of the heat exchanger tubes yesterday and I measured a high temp of just over 200° fahrenheit, which seems to be more than enough heat. Our temps have been about what you described your temps are and our stove has absolutely no trouble at all keeping the room at whatever temperature we set the thermostat for. If the room temp is 68° and I tap the thermostat up to 69°, it might take about a 1/2 hour but it will get there.

This may sound crazy, but my suggestion would be to close your pellet feed plate to almost or at its lowest setting, thereby feeding less pellets into the auger. As someone already mentioned, because you are getting a lot of clinkers which may be a sign of needing more air, then all we can do is lower the pellet feed rate. I placed a video on YouTube of my stove starting up for the first time and this pretty much shows you exactly how my flame is, although it can get a bit higher at times, but this is a good flame and not too high overall. You can see my video here.

As long as your stove is good and clean, lower the feed rate as I mentioned and see how she burns. If the flame never reaches a few inches above the top of the burn pot, then reach in and raise the pellet feed plate maybe 1/8" and give it 45 minutes or so to see if the flame gets a bit higher overall. Just an additional thought, I don't know if you bought this stove new or not, but it wouldn't hurt to reach underneath the rear of your stove and feel for the air intake hole for the combustion chamber and make sure there is nothing up inside it. Also, be sure that all the holes in your burn pot (look really close as there are many) are really clean as your air comes in through them for efficient combustion. You can bend a small length of coat hanger or use a rifle bore brush to get well inside the holes to make sure they are clean. I'm sure that you've already cleaned all around all of the heat exchanger tubes really well inside. Make sure that your ash tray door is closed tight.

It's going to take some trial and error to get your stove to burn really well. I can guess that once our days are well below freezing and the nights in the single digits or less, we may have to crank it up on High, but we'll see.

Let us know how you make out and don't hesitate to ask if you have any more questions.

Below is my installation.

Steve

 

[dustminer]

hi, i got the same stove and the same pa pellets..... clinkers are from the pellets, must clean burn pot twice daily..... install and outside air kit... dont pump the air you just paid too heat out thru the stove......the OAK helped my install greatly

dustminer

 

[humpin iron]

Insulation factor?? Older home, is house leaking heat as fast as the stove makes it?? Thats a good stove, but not a fix-all for bigger problems

 

[kinsmanstoves]

Just my guess, but I think you have too much vent pipe. Please see info below. Just from what I can see from your pic, I'm guessing 20 EVL.

Here is the link:

http://www.nevelsstoves.com/articles/Venting-your-pellet-stove.htm


Pellet stoves have to push the exhaust air through the vent pipe with the stove's exhaust fan. With less restriction your pellet stove will breathe easier and burn more efficiently. First let's clarify the word restriction. Restrictions come from several different items.

45 degree elbows
90 degree elbows
Horizontal distance
Vertical distance
Elevation where you live.

A rule of thumb equation we are using has been adopted by most pellet manufactures. The equation is called the sum of Equivalent Vent Length (EVL). All of the above mentioned venting restrictions have been assigned EVL values as follows:

Each 45 degree elbow = 3 EVL
Each 90 degree elbow and Tees with cleanout = 5 EVL
Each foot of horizontal run = 1 EVL
Each foot of Vertical run = 0.5 EVL
Elevations above 3000 ft with an EVL of 7 must adapt to 4 inch vent pipe.

If your installation is below 3000ft, we would need to do some math. The rule of thumb equations is that if the sum of the EVL is 15 or greater, then the pellet vent pipe would be increased to 4 inch diameter pellet vent pipe.

Hope this helps.

hmm i counted like 11evl there...might be wrong, never herd of that till you showed me...

As the pic shows this is the parts I see/know from the stove to the existing chimney
Adapter
90 or tee 5
3' vertical 1.5
45 2.5
3' vertical 1.5
90 5
1' horizontal into chimney 1
that is 16.5 and not including the masonary chimney that can cause a downdraft problem in it own.
I would have used 4" pipe and lined the chimney with a 4" flex liner

I still think there are other issues that i addressed in the other post.

Eric

 

[Barrett]

I’ll try to answer as many questions as possible. And THANKS for all the replies!

Was it putting out more heat when you first got it running? Nope.
Is there an air adjustment on it, if there is have you fiddled with that? No adjustment.
When you cleaned the stove did you get behind all baffles including any around the heat exchanger? Yes.
Did you check for any blockage in the heat exchanger system including the blower and it’s intake? No, I didn’t take it apart that much.
How tall are your ceilings in the “old house” you own? 7 Feet.
Is the upstairs also open to the stove, such as via a stairwell? No
Are there any air gaps that would allow a large amount of new cold air to enter the room the stove is in? Not really, but I will check again.
Is this a slab house? No, stone foundation, partial unfinished basement
insulation in walls and ceiling? Partial
if you are burning only a bag a day with feed rate on high something is off. It’s on medium
i would try opening the damper all the way. No damper
I would go out and get a couple bags of another brand and try them. NOBODY has any pellets around here! Not until next year

is there a fireplace somewhere or is it totally sealed off? Totally sealed off, used to be for a woodstove.

is the oak a tough route for you? YEEEESSSSS!!

Let met me explain the last answer. Between the snow sliding off the roof, and the stove being on the side of the house that is 5 feet from the road, I cannot vent or oak out the side of the house. Here’s a pic to show what I’m talking about-

Anybody got a way around this little problem?! I do really think I need the oak, it makes sense to not suck cold air into my house. There’s a window 4 feet away, so I might try to oak into a board in the open window, and see what happens. Buuuut if it helps, then where do I connect it when the snow is halfway up the window? How long can the oak pipe be? If I can do 12 feet, I may have a solution.

I'm also wondering about the 3" vs 4" vent pipe. the supplier who was going to install it was going to use 3", and both he and the chimney sweep who also installs said i don't need to pipe all the way up the chimney.

 

[woodsman23]

Is the basement below your stove? if so why not just drill a hole and install OAK through floor into unfinished basement.. also turn up stove to max and see if this puts out more heat, i think with your insulation issues this could be the problem (drafty) try running on highest settings for a couple hours and see if it makes a difference... I feel your pain with the snow we have over 60" already this year.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

longer runs with an OAK are doable with most units , we use a 2 inch line up to 6 ft and recommend a 3 inch line which if fairly straight can work up to 15 ft. im with the poster who said check the pellets. i do also strongly adviseOAK for any pellet stove install , not running one is wasteful even if the stove burns well without one.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Barrett,

I'd suggest that if you have a reasonable distance on the other side of the house away from the road and you have a cellar window there that you can keep clear of snow that you install an OAK through the floor and over to that location.

I'm not very keen on grabbing the air directly from the basement since it would draw cold air into the basement and I don't know what's down there. In fact what is going to keep any piping in your basement from freezing?

Probably that is also out of the question due to length and would in effect be like buying blue board from your local hardware store ;-) .

I'd also third or fourth the suggestion about the pellets and second the suggestion about insulation.

I'd also look into doing some work on those windows to make certain there is another dead air layer.

I'd also try opening up that stove to a higher setting and see what happens just to get a feel for it running that way.

The square footage rating of a stove is sort of a coin toss. (Very, very simplified) It depends on the volume of air that that has to be heated and the square footage of all of the walls and floor and ceilings along with the actual conductance factors for each of those areas multiplied by the temperature difference between the areas after you have sealed all (well most) air leaks. That is why it is an up to figure.

 

[woodsman23]

I’ll try to answer as many questions as possible. And THANKS for all the replies!

Was it putting out more heat when you first got it running? Nope.
Is there an air adjustment on it, if there is have you fiddled with that? No adjustment.
When you cleaned the stove did you get behind all baffles including any around the heat exchanger? Yes.
Did you check for any blockage in the heat exchanger system including the blower and it’s intake? No, I didn’t take it apart that much.
How tall are your ceilings in the “old house” you own? 7 Feet.
Is the upstairs also open to the stove, such as via a stairwell? No
Are there any air gaps that would allow a large amount of new cold air to enter the room the stove is in? Not really, but I will check again.
Is this a slab house? No, stone foundation, partial unfinished basement
insulation in walls and ceiling? Partial
if you are burning only a bag a day with feed rate on high something is off. It’s on medium
i would try opening the damper all the way. No damper
I would go out and get a couple bags of another brand and try them. NOBODY has any pellets around here! Not until next year

is there a fireplace somewhere or is it totally sealed off? Totally sealed off, used to be for a woodstove.

is the oak a tough route for you? YEEEESSSSS!!

Let met me explain the last answer. Between the snow sliding off the roof, and the stove being on the side of the house that is 5 feet from the road, I cannot vent or oak out the side of the house. Here’s a pic to show what I’m talking about-

Anybody got a way around this little problem?! I do really think I need the oak, it makes sense to not suck cold air into my house. There’s a window 4 feet away, so I might try to oak into a board in the open window, and see what happens. Buuuut if it helps, then where do I connect it when the snow is halfway up the window? How long can the oak pipe be? If I can do 12 feet, I may have a solution.

I'm also wondering about the 3" vs 4" vent pipe. the supplier who was going to install it was going to use 3", and both he and the chimney sweep who also installs said i don't need to pipe all the way up the chimney.

Am i looking at single pane windows?? i'd replace them right away or at least cover with plastic sheeting.

 

[Barrett]

Is the basement below your stove? if so why not just drill a hole and install OAK through floor into unfinished basement. Just a crawlspace, and I though teat might suck cold air in and freeze the pipes, as mentioned

Probably that is also out of the question due to length and would in effect be like buying blue board from your local hardware store. Have we met on another board, hmmm?

Am i looking at single pane windows?? Yes, but with triple track storms. Ask ‘smokey the bear’ here about replacing my 150 year old windows…

come down inside the wall to where the stove is. No way am I messing with 150 year old lathe and plaster to do that!

the board through the window idea will be leaky, both air and water wise, even with duct tape which will come out ugly. It would just be an experiment to see what happens.

get a 3 inch hole saw bit for your drill. make the hole….. it won’t work, the snow sliding off the roof will tear it down fast, snow is pretty heavy.

Anyways, I bought 2 different bags of pellets today in the city, 45 minutes each way, ouch. I’m sure that will be interesting. These PA pellets are super dusty, and all different sizes.

Thanks!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Gee Barrett, I'd rather discuss "blue board" rather than old windows.

You can get some window sealing kits at a local hardware store (on second thought maybe that should be at a distant hardware store).

Triple track is another "word" for leaks air and conducts heat through metal frame.

 

[Lobstah]

Get 3M film on every window and get out the hairdryer...

Jim

 

[tinkabranc]

BBrrrrr....I feel the cold just looking at that picture of your window.

Time to take down the summer curtains and put up some 3M plastic
and heavy drapes to hold your heat in. ;-)

 

[humpin iron]

150 yrs old, little to no insulation, triple track windows, plaster and lathe, stone foundation.................I'm sticking to my first post, house leaks heat faster than stove can make it. Try to get some credit on that stv and trade up to a larger stove.

 

[slls]

I agree, a CB1200 would do the job, even a old leaky house.

 

[Barrett]

I’m gonna get the plastic over the windows soon, before my wife kills me, I swear. The kits have been sitting on the table for 3 months!

That pic is the kitchen, she insists on lacey curtains there. The other windows downstairs have heavy drapes.

Yes the triple tracks aren’t the best, hopefully next summer I can build some real wooden storms and rip those things off.

“house leaks heat faster than stove can make it”- the oil furnace had no problem maintaining a steady warm temp, cycling on and off, mostly off. So yes it is leaky, but I still think something with the pellet heat is wrong, be it stove, pellets, vent, oak, etc.