Hearth.com phenomenon.

[MountainStoveGuy]

I have been hanging out here for some time now. Its interesting how the internet community differs so much from my day to day customers. The discussions we have here are rarely encountered on the floor here at the shop. I have worked at two hearth shops in the twelve years i have been in this industry and our client's are basically the same. The passionate issues that stick out in my mind that come up over and over again are outside air kits, cat vs non cat stoves, how good PE stoves are, etc. This is completely opposite then what i experience in the day to day runnings of a stove shop.

Its strange, we cant give PE stoves away. Both shops i have worked at has carried them from time to time. We order them, then they sit around. I know there good stoves, but how did they get such strong following in this community when i cant give them away to my huge client base? I'm a big fan, but i can not convince people that walk through the door that they need to buy one. The current local dealer here has all there PE models on close out. I was in there cross shopping hot tubs and i didn't even know they where a dealer. I was surprised to see the stoves there, but not surprised they are closing them out.

Cat stoves. Out of all the manufactures i have sold, which include Hearthstone, Jotul, Quadrafire, Harman, RAIS, Morso, Dover, Hampton, Regency, SCAN, Thelin, and other smaller manufactures, non of them make catalytic stoves. I find it odd that there is so much heated discussion on the web when there is so little market share devoted to cat stoves. I personally, am a fan of cat stoves, but im guessing there is less then 10% of total market share devoted to cat stoves. How do they encompass such a large part of the discussions here? There are more users here then in my local market, but you would still think that the numbers would be somewhat similar. No one, i mean NO ONE comes in the shop looking for catalytic stoves. The ones that do have not been shopping in years and still thinks thats what is available. Why has the industry abandoned this technology? I have my guesses, but we will leave that for later.

OAK's are another discussion that comes up rarely in here, but they do come up. I can guarantee you there is not a heated discussion on the floor about it, its just something people ask about in the overall conversation about there heating needs.

I wish my clientèle was as tuned in to moisture meters, stove thermometers, IR guns, wood stacking techniques, etc and maybe some are. I just never hear about it. Thank you hearth.com for making me a more rounded hearth pro. I learn a ton here, and i get to see the side of this business that no other hearth pro gets to see if they don't participate here. I think thats an advantage.

 

[begreen]

It takes time to establish a brand, though maybe it's a regional thing too? Early on VC stoves established a good reputation here due to a well known, reputable dealer/installer. That's in spite of having to be shipped cross-continent and selling here for a premium. Same for Jotul. There is a high local Scandinavian population that probably also helps that market. PE/Quad/Country/Lopi-Avalon are all made nearby and sell well. Maybe it's marketing, but for the most part these stoves have done well based on their reputations for simple reliable stoves.

Get some Alderleas into local homes and I think you will see word of mouth start selling PEs. But it may take a few seasons to gain momentum. In the meantime it's up to the shop's marketing. Maybe offer a free doobie roller in the Boulder area? Or advertise it as a great air dryer/dehydrator? :coolgrin:

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

If i where to offer a free doobie roller i would be directly competing with all the medical marijuana dispensaries. That would be bad LMAO.

 

[webbie]

MSG,

Keep this in mind. SOME of the conversations here are "pimping"...as I have found out the hard way. PE was always a slow selling and less popular model among every dealer I knew. But for a short time here, you would have thought it was the only stove made. Dealers, distributors and manufacturers have great interest in promoting their product for free....which, of course, includes positive reviews and links posted here.....

Just saying....that the current conversation does not always reflect reality. I have, at times, found certain forum members breaking the spirit of the forum by engaging in such practices - and that is why I warn against it in the "which stove should I buy" sticky.

Unfortunately, there is often no way to cull out those conversations or members....so I think the prospective buyer or researcher has to keep all that in mind.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Craig, i totally agree, but over the 3.5 years i have been blessed with hearth.com's presence, these conversations come up over and over and over again. PE has always been strongly recommended here. Woodstock has a huge following, but if everyone was buying woodstock they would start selling two tier or direct. These fantastic stove manufactures get great press all over the net, but it such a polar opposite to my reality, it makes me scratch my head. Its a very interesting dynamic that this web site brings to our industry. I think any dealer, manufacture, distributor, etc are missing out if they do not participate, or at least read here. One thing for sure it doesn't do, is help me forecast what to buy based on consumer interest lol.

 

[webbie]

Right you are!
The stove biz is so regional.
Only those actually "on the ground" can see what the scoop is in a particular market.

The internet has proven to be somewhat of a leveling influence. Dealers, of course, are rarely going to mention brands like Woodstock, Englander, etc. because most don't sell them. There has always been a larger potential market (nationally) than the good specialty dealers could serve.

The net allows the prospective customer to find out about all the potential choices and the ups and downs....

 

[SolarAndWood]

I was a totally uneducated consumer the first time around. I went and bought a stove I saw doing what I thought was a good job keeping a friend of the family's camp warm. After buying 'seasoned wood' and warping the stove trying to get it to heat the space that the literature said it would, I talked to the dealer who convinced me it was because of the wood. So, I tried again with a new stove with dry wood and guess what same result. After finding hearthvana, I figured out that expecting 24/7 performance for 7 months straight in my space was just beyond the stoves capabilities. In the process, I also learned that my OWB solution to the problem was just going to bring me more misery. So, now I know what to go and tell the dealer I want and how to deal with him questioning me about the size of the stove. He even nodded in agreement by the time we were done this afternoon. Education is a beautiful thing. If it is that hard to sell stoves properly, I can only imagine how hard it is to sell boilers properly if your customers are as uneducated as I was.

 

[BrotherBart]

Year before last this place was wall to wall PE cheering. Last year it was Englander cheering. This year it is Woodstock. The Jotuls are a fairly steady stream year after year but never the top of the cheerleader pyramid. I think Lopi and Quad are probably in the on-deck circle for their years now with the tax credit.

Now, about a scorching deal on that PE Summit Classic sitting on the sales floor there gathering dust. You know I ain't bashful about getting stoves shipped out of Boulder. :lol:

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

yea i remember the sutherlands experience! however, its not on my showroom floor, its on internation hot tub's floor in boulder. They are blowing out all there models. ohh, and no caps for you my friend, cant find much.

 

[Highbeam]

I believe that a stove is a fairly emotional purchase all involved with tradition and reputation for performance. Just like buying a chevy pickup. My daddy had one and it never let us down so why would I buy a toyota? PE won't take off until you establish a track record and reputation. I had never heard of the brand before coming to hearth.com and I also never heard of a dolmar.

We here are stove enthusiasts so we take some things seriously and try to optimize our heaters. Many of our serious discussions can fall under the "it's good enough" category to non-enthusiasts.

I think a non-enthusiast is most concerned with looks (subjective), cost (is what it is), and dependability/durability(all are good, experience speaks volumes). None of which are very hot topics here except perhaps the last one which comes up when someone's stove breaks.

We are oddballs. How many folks know what east-west loading is?

 

[begreen]

Brand name recognition has a lot to do with the purchase as well. I remember asking about PE stoves when I got the Castine. The first response was, 'never heard of them'. But then what would one expect from a salesperson (and installer) that didn't burn wood? The spiel I hear at local home shows is similar. The dealers tend to push the brands they represent.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

The PE line has been in three different shops in town. There are only 4 stores in Boulder lol. I have looked at them very closely at the show, and they look like fantastic stoves!

 

[TreePapa]

marketing suggestion= pacific energy conjures images of calorifornia & balmy oregano. maybe if they were CANADIAN ENERGY instead?

Pacifc Oregano? Perhaps you're thnking of a different green herb?

Peace,
- Sequoia

 

[firefighterjake]

Year before last this place was wall to wall PE cheering. Last year it was Englander cheering. This year it is Woodstock. The Jotuls are a fairly steady stream year after year but never the top of the cheerleader pyramid. . . .

Who's gonna make me all hot this winter?

Oslo! Oslo! Oslo!

Give me a J.

Give me an O.

Give me a T.

Give me an U.

Give me a L.

What does that spell?

JOTUL! JOTUL! JOTUL!

(Ok, time for me to get out of this Patriots Cheerleader outfit . . . it's a bit tight in a few areas and if my wife catches me wearing this I'll have a lot of explaining to do about where I got the pom-poms and why I'm dressed up like this and parading in front of my Oslo.)

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

LMFAO.

 

[Slow1]

A year ago I was that uneducated consumer looking to enter the world of wood burning. I visited stove shops around here and found stove displays that looked very much the same and sales folks that honestly didn't seem to know much about their stoves. The way they directed us to make a decision went along the lines of "how big do you want?" - Big or Small? Ok - Now do you want Steel, Cast, or Stone? If you get Steel it will heat up fast and not hold it long, Stone will heat up slow but hold it longer, Cast is in between. Cat vs Non-Cat? Well - Cat used to be cleaner but now that manufacturers have figured out how to do it without the cats they can get just as if not more clean a burn without the cat so it is just one more thing to clean and maintain - those cats cost $xxx to replace every few years but it is up to you. Brands? well - each store had 2-3 brands (at most) and of course they touted theirs as the best... but said they carried more than one to give their valued customers choices in designs since "not every look pleases every homeowner"...

Based on that buying experience is it any wonder that I went with a brand (VC) that I had hear of and seen in a couple friends homes? it was the only brand I had heard of and I knew they were happy with their good old stoves.. I avoided the cat and went with the EPA numbers (was thrilled with great numbers!) and my wife frankly LOVED the way it looked. It cost far less than the only soapstone stove (Hearthstone brand) that we saw so there it was.

Looking back I see it was a foolish way to make the decision but I had not found hearth.com and was in a hurry to get it ordered and installed - oil was running $4.50/gallon and going up with no end in sight.

If a shop were to open staffed with the folks from this site and visited by forum visitors could you imagine how the conversations would go or what it would look like? You'd have to have virtually every stove hooked up and piles of wood laying about to show how they burn along with all sorts of test equipment Better be in a cold climate! I'd make the trip just to see it though even my wife would stay home, heh.

 

[firefighterjake]

As others have mentioned and Highbeam really nailed . . . I think a lot has to do with familiarity and track records. I mean, how many of us know about VC's past warranty issues and company-wide issues and yet I still see folks that come here fresh and new (and hear of folks around town) that remember how great VCs were back in the past and they are still convinced that this is THE STOVE to buy.

Heck, before I came here I was convinced that VCs were the Cadillacs of stoves . . . but at the same time I was completely soured on cats based on a friend's miserable experience with a first generation cat. Obviously, reading the reviews and threads here have changed some of my perceptions.

PEs . . . never heard of them until I was here . . . but once I heard about them I did consider a few makes and models before opting to go with a different make and model. I think in time, with positive experiences, people who buy them, love them and recommend them to friends and family members will help make in-roads as other brands have done so . . . it seems to me that many folks buy whatever their parents used, friends use, etc. because they've seen the stoves in action and like (or think they like) the look of the stove (first consideration for many folks) . . . cost of course is nearly, if not equally as important . . . and perhaps low on the list for folks I have seen perusing stoves without educating themselves a bit are the gee-whiz features like ash trays, cooking tops, mitten warmers, etc.

I also suspect some of PEs issues may be with the regional perception . . . yes, I know Pacific Energy stoves can work in states bordering the Atlantic . . . but around here at least I think some folks may be more apt to think that a stove built in the Northwest may not heat a home the same, or as well, as a stove with headquarters in New England or with a Scandinavian or German-sounding name. I'm not saying that's right . . . but I think it could be a possibility.

As for the difference in customers in the shop and us here . . . well that's easy to answer . . . we're just obsessed and plain weird . . . I mean how many people here have to get their hearth.com fix daily . . . even in middle of the summer? I mean, it's just another way to heat our homes and yet we're practically religious about coming here, espousing our views and debating the various issues . . .

Actually, all kidding aside, I suspect as Highbeam mentioned and I alluded to, that many walk-in customers are looking at things a lot different. They want a good looking and performing stove at a price they can afford with some neat features . . . and they want it as soon as they can get it. I would guess that a good many of them haven't truly researched the stove make/model, options, etc. but a number of them might just check in with their local stove shop and ask the salesman for their opinion . . . and then go with what looks good, has the best features in their opinion and is at a price they can afford.

 

[summit]

we had the same issue when we first picked up PE.. sold slow, and the boss (who was a big Lopi fan) didn't really try to push them. However, when our lopis started selling at 2100 for an endeavor, and 2800 for a liberty, he finally came round, and started suggesting them as alternatives when people started balking at the price of the lopi... you can get a basic summit (large size), no ashpan, black door, pedestal, for @ 1950, as compared to the lopi endeavor (medium size) at 2100 for the basic unit. bigger stove, better wtty, cleaner glass, better handle, more options, so it was a no brainer to start pushing the PE stoves. we sold about 150 last year, which puts us in the tops in New England area. Its the first stove i show many of the people who come in the door, now, and probably accounts for a good 25% of all our woodstove sales (look at my signature, and you will see the line up we have!) The biggest things we did to really make them take off were;
1. every employee who burns wood at their house now has a PE.. experience counts, and when they can rely on it to heat their house, they feel more comfy telling a customer that they can, too.
2. Burn models and floor models- the burn is awesome on these stoves, and seeing it in action is almost always a clincher.. also display the red and black enamel spectrums with all the nickel bling.. those are a handsome stove, and a show stopper!
3. Keep it simple, and the customer will too; PE makes three stoves; a small a medium and a large.. make sure to tell them that this company does not frig round with all kinds of fancy newer models and new tech; they stick with what works, and they can be assured that whether they get an alderlea, spectrum/classic series, or a stripped down heritage edition they will get the same performance.
4. construction, Baffle and warranty; no tubes to hang down which alows you to stick those last couple pieces in for overnight.. the door latch hooks on the outside of the door opening, which prevents heat stress and damage on the latch... the inside is easy to remove an put back together.. no special refractory pices which are only avail from the manufacturer, just standard bricks... thick stove tops prevent warping, lifetime warranty, and the enamel on the pretty ones is hard to chip and/ or crack, and the contact points (around the door, and on the trivet area) are not enameled so as to prvent you from smashing a log or steamer pot into your fancy finish.
5. Internet exposure; tell them to check it out online, and the awesome reviews and next to zero negative feedback will sell it for you.
6. If none of the above works, i tell them to take a stick of firewood, go to our competition, and smash it around the inside of the napoleon, englander or archguard or whatever else they are selling, and see how long it takes to break something, and I will give them a stick to do so with our floor model PEs.. no broken bits yet (but then, there is nothing to break!), and make sure to let them load up a floor model with wood to see how easy the North South straight in fuel loading works, and how much wood you can cram into one of these suckers!

This is not to say other lines we carry are somehow bad, and they all have their good selling points, too. However, I consider PEs very bulletproof and reliable, something you want from a stove you will have on your hearth for the next two or three decades.
Hope this helps, happy selling!!

 

[begreen]

I also suspect some of PEs issues may be with the regional perception . . . yes, I know Pacific Energy stoves can work in states bordering the Atlantic . . . but around here at least I think some folks may be more apt to think that a stove built in the Northwest may not heat a home the same, or as well, as a stove with headquarters in New England or with a Scandinavian or German-sounding name. I'm not saying that's right . . . but I think it could be a possibility.

I suspect you're correct. I hadn't heard of PE before joining Hearth.com. That got me curious. I still love Jotuls. An Oslo was my original target, but I was thwarted by the corner install and side door on the wrong side. I would have been interested in trying an Isle Royale out too. But in the end, Tom Oyen just made the decision easy. Endorsement by John Gulland didn't hurt either.

PE, Quadrafire, Avalon, Lopi, Country are all made (or started) in the NW. It does get cold out here once one gets away from the coast and Puget Sound. East of the Cascades temps frequently gets as cold as the east coast does. And snow, well, here's snow 20-30 ft deep. Good NW stoves are built well. Folks have been heating with wood and nothing else here as the frontier and rural areas developed, while the cities on the east coast were bricking up "old-fashioned" fireplaces. Afterall, what's a lumberjack going to heat with besides wood? ;-)

http://www.tateventure.com/assets/images/autogen/a_100_2328.jpg

http://www.historicphotoarchive.com/m6b/monner1121.jpg

 

[firefighterjake]

. . .1. every employee who burns wood at their house now has a PE.. experience counts, and when they can rely on it to heat their house, they feel more comfy telling a customer that they can, too.
2. Burn models and floor models- the burn is awesome on these stoves, and seeing it in action is almost always a clincher.. also display the red and black enamel spectrums with all the nickel bling.. those are a handsome stove, and a show stopper!

Two very good points . . . when I was first researching products and checking out the local stove shops I always made it a point to ask the salesman a) if he or she burned wood in their own home and b) what they were using for a stove.

The second thing I always noticed was what makes/models in the store were burning or at least hooked up and ready to go vs. which makes/models were off in a corner somewhere gathering dust.

 

[savageactor7]

I'm willing to concede a CAT stove is more efficient but they're still not the stove for us. We just can't deal with a stove that needs tending other than to simply put wood into it and closing the door.

And there's the price difference too between cat/non cat...my neighbor got a new NC30 for 400 at a BB store, a seasonal clearance markdown. Tough to compete against that...besides the fact you don't hear of any complaints against those them and people talk how well they work out.

...just say'en I agree with the poster that suggested a name change for PE... it does imo suggest a heating solution for a balmy climate.

 

[drdoct]

I was gonna get a Pacific Energy but figured all it'd burn was pine. . After being on here it's disappointing to go to a stove shop and deal with idiots who know nothing and really don't care to know anything.

 

[CrappieKeith]

What's even more interesting is there is not much talk of a warm air furnace..it's either stove talk or boiler talk.
I'm seeing issues with burn times....1 room too hot and the rest pretty cool.I over heated my stove and other issues where it seems that the poster can not get what he or she wants from a stove and therefore created issues by pushing it to hard.
I see what size wood or splits should I burn or can I add green wood to get longer burn times.
Most of the advice I see is get a bigger stove.
Well I guess I'm done with my thoughts about this,but it just seems sorta funny is all.

 

[BrotherBart]

Keith there is just something about gathering the family around the furnace in the basement in the evening that just ain't quite the same. :coolsmirk:

 

[Highbeam]

Yeah, being named "hearth" .com you would think that the discussions would generally revolve around a hearth which is where the stove goes. The boiler guys have very complicated stups with pumps and such and they are a special group with lots to talk about. Perhaps the fact that there is not too much furnace discussion is due to the fact that they are not difficult to install or run, there are not too many decisions to make.

Oh and BG, better add the blaze king to your list of northwest made stoves. Not only the NW but in Walla Walla but I'm not sure if it's the west or east walla.