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Heat Large house Englander

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by 04HemiRam2500, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. MarkinNC

    MarkinNC Minister of Fire

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    What about a BIG convective stove by the laundry room pushing the air in the general direction of the dining room. I think if there was a stove in the living room the heat would had up the stairway, maybe too much. If you do not spend much time in your living but in the new addition, the kitchen and the dining room might work some. I would definitely go BIG like you are thinking about.

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  2. rideau

    rideau Minister of Fire

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    As I read this, you were talking about putting the stove in the new addition, right at the start of the new addition, sideways install, so the back would go toward the old part of the house? But then you say you are going to put the hearth pad with the long side against the wall. You can't do that. If the long part runs along the wall, the stove has to be placed on the pad so that it fronts out into the room.
    If you put the stove at the passageway, which is 5 feet, you only have 21 inches maximum for passage...pretty narrow.

    I'd consider moving the stove further into the new addition and facing it into the room. Then a good amount of heat with freely flow through that five foot opening. The only room on the first floor that I could see being a challenge to heat is the living room. Not too sure if there re one or two doors into it? Is there a walkway under the stairs?

    Hope the garage is well insulated, well sealed from the upper part of the new addition,

    Have you considered waiting for the new Woodstock Union which is supposed to be ready perhaps in November, priced at $2000, super efficient, and very large. I would think it would heat that home easily to the temperatures you desire. You might call and talk to Woodstock, shoot them a diagram of the home. They'll give you an honest opinion. If you do choose to go that route, get your name on their list NOW. They had a really good introductory price on the PH, and perhaps they'll have an introductory price on the Union...you could also ask them if they anticipate doing so.

    How wide are your stairs in the main house? Are they closed in or open to the second floor? (How easily will air move up the stairwell?)
    PapaDave likes this.
  3. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    So far I have not heard the OP request info on a cat stove or something over $1000 before installation. The Union's release and requirements are currently speculative. One would definitely be a tester with a new stove. It often takes a year or two of burning in many environments to shake the bugs out of a new design. The more radical the design, the longer the testing period. Unfortunately, some designs never work out well. I hope the Union works out to be a great stove, but I hesitate recommending one to anyone for at least this next season.
  4. 04HemiRam2500

    04HemiRam2500 Feeling the Heat

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    Before I think about putting the stove in the chimney, I am almost positive that even with a liner this is not going to work. This is because the chimney is really old and abandoned and there are big chunks of the brick falling off. So even with a liner I doubt this will work and more importantly get approved by my house insurance.
  5. dafattkidd

    dafattkidd Minister of Fire

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    If you can get a double walled pipe in the existing chimney I think you should be good to go. The chimney at that point only serves as a chase for the SS chimney which does all the work. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like I make sense to me ==c.
  6. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    If the chimney is falling apart there ain't no liner in the world gonna fix that. The last thing in this world you want is a brick chimney falling apart and mashing a liner with a fire kicking in a stove.
    PapaDave and Joful like this.
  7. dafattkidd

    dafattkidd Minister of Fire

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    Oh crap! I missed the "big chunks of brick falling off" HAHAHAHA. Disregard my prior statement!
  8. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    Perhaps I missed it, but is this stove to be the ONLY source of heat? Can it not be supplemented with oil/propane/electric?

    I don't think the space being heated sounds very large, but whatever. Put the Englander in your most central location, and have at it! You will quickly know if a second stove is warranted.

    I'm heating roughly 6400 sq.ft. with a combination of two wood stoves, oil, and propane. One of these wood stoves is carrying the majority of our heating needs for 3000 sq.ft., and it's jammed way back into a masonry fireplace. Not ideal, and it doesn't supply 100% of our needs 100% of the time, but it did shave about $2,200 off my oil bill last year!
  9. rideau

    rideau Minister of Fire

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    I am confident Woodstock will not release a stove unless and until it's quality and function is in keeping with Woodstock's tradition of excellence. There may be minor issues at first, as there have been with the Progress Hybrid (hence the introductory price), but none of them prevented the PH from being an excellent stove, and those issues have all been addressed, and the original stoves are all being retrofitted, at no cost to the owners, with the changes. Meanwhile, we guinea pigs have been happily heating for two years. Were I to do it over, I would happily buy the stove as originally released again.

    SInce the OP was talking about possibly getting two stoves, the suggestion of a $2000 stove that would heat the entire home did not seem out of place.
  10. 04HemiRam2500

    04HemiRam2500 Feeling the Heat

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    Okay so wood stove it is.
  11. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    From all that you have posted I agree with Joful. Get the 30NC and locate it centrally in the new section with a proper flue and hearth. Try that out for a season. If you want to supplement it, consider tearing out the fireplace and its chimney and putting a nice freestanding stove in its place. Old fireplaces come out pretty easily. You start from the roof down and should have it out in a day.
  12. 04HemiRam2500

    04HemiRam2500 Feeling the Heat

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    Okay but which way should the stove be facing to get the best performance from it. Also, to aid in my help to heat the house has anyone used the fans that sit on top of the stove that blow the hot air without electricity. I can point these in the direction I want the heat to go.
  13. DexterDay

    DexterDay Guest

    Point the stove in the direction most heat. The radiant heat from the glass along with the use of a blower will push a lot of heat in that general direction.

    Went 1 yr without the blower and added it last yr. I recommend the blower if you really have to push the stove. The 30 has a tendency to want to burn pretty hot. The blower helped to keep it under control.

    Has anyone looked at that 30 NC deal for $600 in Michigan? Thats a pretty good deal if they ship anywhere.
  14. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I'd face the stove into the room. If you want side radiance, get a stove that is all around radiant. Your best bet for for moving the air is to use a table or box fan in th kitchen, placed on the floor, pointing toward the woodstove. Run it on low speed. It will blow the cooler air down low, toward the woodstove. The denser cool air will be replaced with lighter warm air from the stove room. Running this way you should notice at least a 5F increase in the kitchen area temp after about 15-30 minutes running.
  15. 04HemiRam2500

    04HemiRam2500 Feeling the Heat

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    The last thing that I need to mention is that the new edition is not completed yet and I was going to do the drywall my self if the studs and all insulation is up does the drywall on the ceiling and the wall provide alot of insulation or will I be okay to try to heat the house without the drywall. I think that as long as all of the insulation is in I should be fine and I will put a few pieces of drywall up around the stove because of the heat from it. In other words does drywall provide that much significant amount of insulation?

    Lastly, if the stove goes in the new edition, I would like to point the front actually in the new edition that way I can enjoy the view of the fire not its side that is why I was think about buying the heat powered fans and run them sideways to heat the main part of the house.
  16. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    To make a decision on how to place the stove, and which way to face it, you simply need to understand the two primary methods by which heat is transferred:

    1. Conduction: Does not require air movement (thus how we get energy from the sun thru space). Is line-of-sight only (hence the wide temperature swings between the bright and dark sides of the moon). Heats the objects that are line-of-sight exposed to the heat source, so this will heat you and your furniture, floor, walls, etc. The energy radiating thru the glass is an order of magnitude higher than that radiating off of the stove body in, in all cases. With a double-walled "convective stove", the difference between the energy radiating off the glass and the other surfaces (sides, top, back) can be even greater.

    2. Convection: Simply the movement of heated air. A "convective stove" will usually have baffles or a jacket around it, which provides "hot" and "cool" surfaces. This temperature differential promotes air movement, and the shapes are designed to accelerate the air, creating a natural convective blower effect. This is a much slower heat, in that it is using air (a very poor conductor of low mass) to heat the objects in the room, but it's sometimes a good option for those trying to more quickly move heat from their stove room to places that are not line-of-sight to the stove.

    Generally, most people feel better standing in a cool environment with the searing radiant heat from a stove baking them, than standing in a space with cool objects and hot air circulating around them. This is why people so often say, "wood heat just feels better." I suspect many millenia of standing in the cold near an open fire has programmed us this way.

    I like to have the stove "pointed at" my couch or chair, where I'll be sitting. I don't need to feel the searing heat radiating thru the glass when I'm up and about, doing my daily stuff. But it does feel great to bake in it when I sit down in my chair at the end of the day.
  17. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    I believe this is radiant heat your describing,and conduction heat is where 2 items of different temperatures are in close proximity to each other and conduct warmth back and forth by either direct contact or air movement. Of course i could have it backward, can anyone clarify?
  18. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    Conduction is the mechanism of radiant heating. A more specific word for the same principle.
  19. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    The drywall will help tighten up the sealing of the room but you can run the stove with just insulation up. Just be sure that the clearance requirements for the stove are met or exceeded. Face the stove into the room, having a good fire view is a very valid request. The heat powered stove top fans are modestly effective. We have the Ecofan by Caframmo. It doesn't move a ton of air, but is effective over time in assisting circulation. However, as I pointed out before, you will get noticeably more effective results blowing the cooler kitchen air toward the heated room.
  20. 04HemiRam2500

    04HemiRam2500 Feeling the Heat

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    If the drywall is not up and I just put some up that are close to the stove obviously, it will be a little harder to heat the entire house for the stove but will it still be possible is my question? In other words, will the drywall have a big or a minor impact on the heating and the ability to move the heat around? I am hoping fr my but go ahead and tell me the truth if it is going to be a big impact. Thaks again all. I think a wood stove is the way to go for me because I like the bedrooms cooler so I figure that if the new edition is like 75 then I am moving that hotter air across the house therefore the room across the house must beat least 55-60 degrees?
  21. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Unless you are also foam wrapping the exterior and have a taped and sealed vapor barrier up over the insulation, there is going to be some leakage that the drywall will help mitigate. The sooner you can get the drywall up and taped, the better.
  22. rideau

    rideau Minister of Fire

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    If you re not able to get the dry wall up, you will have more obvious air leakage. Take advantage of the opportunity to note where you are not well sealed and seal the areas before you do put the drywall up. Unless you area very leaky, you should be able to heat, just may have a bit of cool air flow and use a bit more wood/have slightly slower burns. But you surely should find your areas of heat loss easily. If you have not already, I'd put gaskets inside all the switch/plug boxes.

    If your addition is 75, with the five foot opening to the older portion of the home, and a fan blowing cool air into the new addition from the older home, I would expect the older part to be warmer than 55. Actually, I would expect a scenario more like 72 in the new addition and 68 in the older portion, except the dining room. And maybe 5 to 10 degrees cooler upstairs, depending on whether you push cool air down, keep bedroom doors open during the day, leave curtains open on south facing bedroom windows, but closed on North facing, etc.
  23. 04HemiRam2500

    04HemiRam2500 Feeling the Heat

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    I should have mentioned that the outside brick and everything is done they are just working on some studs and plumbing/ electrical still for the laundry and other back room in the new edition. So if I put drywall up near the stove only and just have insulation will this be a big or small problem?

    ALSO, in my picture where I have stairs to garage I was going to put a door at the top of the stairs. I was considering on the wall that connects the new edition to the dining room that I might put an open vent to allow the heat to flow into the old part of the house. Even though it is away from the stove it might help heat get into the old part of the house. Do you think this will help and how big should I make the vent also are there fans I can put in the vent?

    I just want to say thank you everyone for all input when I get this going I am going to post my findings on here!!

    Lastly, will the insurance guy say anything about not have the drywall up? Do house insurance even send people to your house?
  24. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Start simple and go from there. Your idea of a high opening might work if you can create a convective loop that goes upstairs, then down the main stairs and returns cooler air to the stove room. This could be nicely augmented by using a box or table fan in the kitchen blowing toward the stove room. The opening would have to be a decent size. If it was between studs, I'm thinking something like 16 x 30.
  25. 04HemiRam2500

    04HemiRam2500 Feeling the Heat

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    Sound good lets see how it goes then mod if need. What do you guys think about the insurance guy if they even come over? Lastly since the outside is done I think it will be a minor issue with the drywall not up?

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