Heatilator Constitution (the HeatNGlo Northstar sister!) Fireplace Fan is NOT coming on automaticall

[njkev]

Hi,
I have already had my new Heatilator Constitution unit burning on several days this season but had always used the manual switch to turn the fan on and off manually. I realized today that the (Constitution) manual specifically states that the fan will come on automatically when the fireplace reaches a certain temperature, but you may use the manual switch to force the fan on if you want it on sooner. Out of curiosity, I left the manual fan in the off position to see WHEN exactly the fan would come on...but it did not. I am positive that the wiring to the switch & rheostat is correct (because they turn the fan on/off and adjust the speed properly!) I am wondering if either the temperature sensor is either defective or simply not connected to the metal of the firebox. The problem is that I can no longer open the front access door at the bottom of the unit because the Micore kit has already been installed and the wall is essentially finished except for tile. I don't see any obvious dangling wire, and have no idea where the sensor is supposed to be connected anyway. I would think the sensor is factory installed along with the fans. Any ideas? Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Kev

 

[NorthlandMN]

Kev,

I had the same problem with my new Kodiak 1700 insert. It was not getting hot enough. My temps need be around 450 before she kicks in. Do you have a thermostat installed? Maybe someone who owns your stove can help.

Darrell

 

[njkev]

Kev,

I had the same problem with my new Kodiak 1700 insert. It was not getting hot enough. My temps need be around 450 before she kicks in. Do you have a thermostat installed? Maybe someone who owns your stove can help.

Darrell

Hi Darrell,
Thanks for your response. I do not have a thermometer on the fireplace yet, but the fireplace was pretty damn hot. I just bought one, and will monitor the fireplace temperature the next time I have it on.

The manual states the following (on page 23) in the note on the bottom of the page: "NOTE: The Fan is equipped with a snap disc that will turn the blower on and off depending on the temperature of the fireplace. If the fans is not coming on at the desired time, flip the override switch to manual and operate the fan as described above." However, there is no mention at WHAT temperature it is supposed to come on...

Kev

 

[jtp10181]

You have to get it pretty darn hot. Also push the ash away from the center because that acts as insulation making it take even longer to heat up.

One other thing... you should always be able to take the fascia off the fireplace. Unless you are talking about the silver steel plate on the very bottom (which should not be taken off anyway).

If you need to get at the fans in the future you have to go in through the firebox, there is an access hatch under the bricks.

 

[njkev]

You have to get it pretty darn hot. Also push the ash away from the center because that acts as insulation making it take even longer to heat up.

One other thing... you should always be able to take the fascia off the fireplace. Unless you are talking about the silver steel plate on the very bottom (which should not be taken off anyway).

If you need to get at the fans in the future you have to go in through the firebox, there is an access hatch under the bricks.

Thanks for your response.
I believe I had it pretty damned hot. Do you know where they placed the temperature sensor? I would think it should be located either on the flue or on the the exterior of the firebox someplace. Are you suggesting that the temperature sensor is actually UNDER the firebox right where the fans are located? That would make no sense.

Yes...I know the fascia is removable as I was the one who installed it.

Kev

 

[jtp10181]

it is direct center under the firebox. that's how they have always done it on gas fireplaces. safest spot for wires also. and its right by the fans.

i have also found that if the wood has too much moisture you wont get the firebox as hot.

make sue you move the ashes away in the center, truly it helps.

 

[njkev]

it is direct center under the firebox. that's how they have always done it on gas fireplaces. safest spot for wires also. and its right by the fans.

i have also found that if the wood has too much moisture you wont get the firebox as hot.

make sue you move the ashes away in the center, truly it helps.

Thanks. I cleaned out all of the ash build-up before I started her up tonight....about 3" of it. The fan did finally come on. I am not convinced that the bottom of the firebox is the best place to put the sensor though especially since the ash WILL build up when you burn 24/7 and don't clean it for a several days! A probe connected to the flue just behind the fascia make much more sense!

BTW...where do you place your magnetic thermometer to measure the firebox temperature on your unit? I have placed my Rutland magnetic one at the top of the right door above the glass just the the right of the seam where the two doors meet. However, I am just wondering how accurate the firebox temperature measurement is at that point? I am also curious how the temperature at that point correlates to the temperature at the flue? I am almost considering to buy second Rutland magnetic thermometer, and place it on the flue pipe located just behind the fascia to monitor the difference between the two points. (I think it is actually possible to read the thermometer through the vent slots!)

Kev

 

[jtp10181]

On our showroom model I put it in the exact spot you did to try it out. Only spot I could find that was in direct contact with the firebox. With a pretty good fire I think I got it up to 500F so it seemed like a pretty good reading to me.

 

[njkev]

On our showroom model I put it in the exact spot you did to try it out. Only spot I could find that was in direct contact with the firebox. With a pretty good fire I think I got it up to 500F so it seemed like a pretty good reading to me.

I'm sorry...did mean that you put your thermometer right on the door frame itself just as I did? Unfortunately, there is no DIRECT contact point on the exterior of the unit for a thermometer on the firebox because the fascia surrounds the door & covers the remainder of the firebox. Obviously, you cannot place the thermometer on the fascia as the only contact points are the four bolts. I used my IR last night, and confirmed that the hottest portion of the door frame (excluding the the glass) is actually at center position of the seam between the two doors. I have no idea how the temperature at that points correlates to the ACTUAL temperature of the firebox itself.....I would imagine hotter perhaps? I will buy that second thermometer tonight, remove the fascia (hopefully without burning my hands!) , and then place it directly onto the firebox (temporarily). I will then be able to see how the temperature at different points of the door frame correlate to the ACTUAL firebox temperature. I will try to start the test at say a 300 deg. F firebox temperature, and then accumulate data every 50 degrees for a total temperature rise of 250 deg. for a maximum Firebox temperature of 550 deg C. Too bad my IR is only good up to 420 deg. F.

What REALLY pisses me off is that I've tried three times now to pull this information out of the manufacturer....and they refuse to give me any numbers or even a recommended measurement point! Since their warranty states that over firing voids the Warranty, they should be REQUIRED to define "over firing"!!

Kev

 

[jtp10181]

Yes I was saying I put the temp gauge in the same spot as you, on the door frame.

I saw something recently about info about over firing being added to the manuals. If I think of it or see it again I will have to read it, or maybe post some info if its public info.

I would not worry too much about it, you will know if you are over firing. If the tubes up top get REALLY red or white hot.... then its too hot. Otherwise you will be OK. Just make sure the top baffle and insulation blanket are installed properly at all times. That is the leading cause of problems with the steel because it lets the fire burn hotter in places its not supposed to.

Also FYI, I have done warranty repairs on units that probably were over-fired. But, it is hard to tell when there are only slight problems. The clause in the warranty would probably only come into play if there is very obvious signs of abuse. There would have to be some serious warped metal from heat damage.

 

[njkev]

Yes I was saying I put the temp gauge in the same spot as you, on the door frame.

I saw something recently about info about over firing being added to the manuals. If I think of it or see it again I will have to read it, or maybe post some info if its public info.

I would not worry too much about it, you will know if you are over firing. If the tubes up top get REALLY red or white hot.... then its too hot. Otherwise you will be OK. Just make sure the top baffle and insulation blanket are installed properly at all times. That is the leading cause of problems with the steel because it lets the fire burn hotter in places its not supposed to.

Also FYI, I have done warranty repairs on units that probably were over-fired. But, it is hard to tell when there are only slight problems. The clause in the warranty would probably only come into play if there is very obvious signs of abuse. There would have to be some serious warped metal from heat damage.

I would think that the factory installed the baffle & blanket properly before shipping? I did not remove the baffle to inspect it after the install last month; should I have? I can see the baffle and the insulation over it, and reach up as far back as I can....and it seems to be ok.

BTW....I noticed that when I load that baby with wood...and open up the damper for 10-15 minutes, it quickly becomes like an inferno.....and temperature rises quickly to 500 degree! What I notice is that once it burns like an "inferno", adjusting the damper to the minimum position seems to have little effect to reduce the flames much. The temperature remains in the 500 - 550 degree "inferno" mode until a good chunk of the wood has been burned! I would imagine this is due to a strong flue draft caused by excessive flame because I did not close/reduce the damper early enough? I am concerned that my damper does not CONTROL the flames once the unit enters "inferno" mode.

I thought I should mention that Heatilator and sister, HeatNGlo, had just updated their manuals this past week on their sites for the Constitution and Northstar respectively. The new manuals are twice as as many pages as the previous one. They have included A LOT more information with regard to install, maintenance, and repair of the unit! (Probably because they were tired of me sending 10 e-mails a day with question after question!! LOL) It's about time they re-vamped their manuals. Note, they have included all specifications...EXCEPT for the MOST important ones.....NOMINAL OPERATING TEMPERATURE...and ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM TEMPERATURE!!

 

[jtp10181]

They probably odnt include temps because there is no good way to get a reading. Peronsally, I think all wood units should come with temp guages built in.

Anyway... when you load it are you sliding the air handle far right and engaging the startup air? It takes like 60 minutes for the startup air the close and during that time the air control will have little effect.

 

[njkev]

They probably odnt include temps because there is no good way to get a reading. Peronsally, I think all wood units should come with temp guages built in.

Anyway... when you load it are you sliding the air handle far right and engaging the startup air? It takes like 60 minutes for the startup air the close and during that time the air control will have little effect.

No, the AAC (Automatic Air Control) was not engaged at all. The unit was loaded with VERY seasoned oak though.

BTW...I got a response letter from one of the Managers at" Hearth and Home, Inc." to my request for "Nominal Operating Temperature Range" and "Over Firing Temperature information! It was a load of BS. I responded back to him telling him it was a load of BS. I told him that it is beyond comprehension to sell a product and then refuse to inform the customer how to operate it SAFELY! I think I will post the back-and-forth e-mails here once the correspondence with them cease; I am sure the Hearth community will be amused

Kev

 

[oars69]

A few observations:
I too have experienced the "inferno" effect. On two or three occasions the fire has burned out of control. I closed the damper and the outside air intake and the fire continued to burn. Now I’m very careful when I load the stove and have the damper fully open, especially when I have loaded small pieces of very dry wood.

I removed my fascia and placed a thermometer on the pipe above the stove. It’s difficult to see without shining some light in there, but that’s where most free standing stove owners place their thermometers so I went with that.

After about 3 months, I noticed my snap disk had melted! The fan wasn’t coming on at all so I had to manually operate it. I replaced it with one from White-Rodgers and it works fine now. When I found the original snap disc, it was located towards the right front under the firebox. I’m going to take jtp’s advice and place it in the direct center of the firebox. I too have experienced the late response of the snap disc. I usually manually operate the fan for a few hours and then keep putting the switch on “auto” until it keeps running. Then I know the snap disc has engaged and I can go to bed knowing I won’t be blowing cold air into my house if the fire goes out. I have also noticed that it is much harder to get the snap disc to go on than it is to keep it on. The stove has to get pretty cold for it to shut off, so keeping it going is not a hassle.

I do have one complaint, maybe someone can help me with. After about a season and a half, my baffle cracked – in half! I replaced it (something like $100) at the beginning of this season and it has cracked again! Does anyone have any thoughts as to what I’m doing wrong? I really don’t think I’ve ever over fired the stove. Even when I had my run away infernos, the pipes never got really red and definitely never turned white.

Thanks.

 

[jtp10181]

You are probably hitting it with a log or something. Also FYI those baffles are limited lifetime warranty if you read the old warranty (from before sept 1 2008).