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Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by sydney1963, Nov 14, 2008.

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  1. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    western Ma , close to NY state border
    Can`t it be said that the pellet industry as a whole stuck it to us too?
    Think! Don`t you really think the pellet industry wants as much of our money too?
    Or do you have blinders on?
    You now have an option to pick who you want to stick it to you.

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  2. imacman

    imacman Guest

    Maybe you can explain that....how?
  3. itworks

    itworks New Member

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    Southwestern CT
    I agree it's the principle, but we all have different principles. Five years ago I decided to hopefully save money by burning pellets. I also changed virtually all my light bulbs to CFL's , purchased only energy star appliances, signed up with my electricity supplier to a time of usage plan, and added a ton of insulation to our home. We try to use our appliances only during the "off-peak" hours, and have been running our pellet stove 24/7. I keep pretty good records, and I know at this point our plan has paid off. I truly love our pellet stove, and will never put it in mothballs, but with the current price of pellets compared to HHO we plan on using oil as our main source of heating. I was hoping that this past spring/summer's run up in oil prices would have been a wake-up call for our nation to develop more fuel efficient cars, and alternate energy sources so that we could continue to be the greatest country in the world that is energy independent, but unfortunately it wasn't. Maybe it's because of the housing crisis that caused a global slowdown that we haven't seen since the great depression, or maybe because our elected officials just don't have the vision of seeing beyond the next day. This is not a political forum, so enough said on this factor. The bottom line is that we are all feeling the financial pinch, and I'm not going to spend additional money to heat my home with pellets. I guess I was fortunate to buy this seasons supply at $225 a ton, and I plan on using some of them. I'll probably try to buy more at a reasonable price in the future. My stove has paid for itself, and I've learned it's great to have choices. When pellets are cheaper than oil I'll burn pellets.
  4. Hammerjoe

    Hammerjoe Member

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    Hear hear!
    Actually I think that pellets manufacturers are sticking it to us worse than the oil companies.
    Think about this, the raw material is abundant, close by and not subject to monkey with suits in some office in New York speculating on the price and yet pellets have almost doubled in less than three years!
    So whos sticking it to us again?
  5. ces001

    ces001 New Member

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    Loc:
    Rhode Island
    No blinders here. We always have the option of deciding who will stick it to us with any product we choose to buy; not just with heating oil or wood pellets. I have no choice but to heat my home when it gets cold and choose to keep my $$$ in the USA by buying wood pellets instead of sending my dollars to the Middle East. Yes, wood pellets have increased in price due to the increased demand, but they have not tripled in price like oil did over the past year.
  6. itworks

    itworks New Member

    Joined:
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    Southwestern CT
    No blinders here. We always have the option of deciding who will stick it to us with any product we choose to buy; not just with heating oil or wood pellets. I have no choice but to heat my home when it gets cold and choose to keep my $$$ in the USA by buying wood pellets instead of sending my dollars to the Middle East. Yes, wood pellets have increased in price due to the increased demand, but they have not tripled in price like oil did over the past year.[/quote]

    All binders off. At this point HHO is currently less than it was a year ago, and pellets are almost twice (if you're lucky to get them) compared to last year.
  7. homebrewz

    homebrewz Minister of Fire

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    Price isn't really an issue, as the furnace never really did the job that the pellet stove does in the kitchen. Its either run the pellet stove,
    or bake some bread to warm up the kitchen. Of course, if the price of pellets went way higher for some reason, that might give me some
    pause. Perhaps then it might be time to look at solar options.
  8. itworks

    itworks New Member

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    Maybe it's time to look into a more efficient furnace, and when can I come over for that homemade bread.
  9. trogers

    trogers New Member

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    Hear hear!
    Actually I think that pellets manufacturers are sticking it to us worse than the oil companies.
    Think about this, the raw material is abundant, close by and not subject to monkey with suits in some office in New York speculating on the price and yet pellets have almost doubled in less than three years!
    So whos sticking it to us again?[/quote]

    Raw material is abundant? Pellets are made of saw dust and processed wood chips for the most part. The housing market came to a screeching halt a while back, so the wood waste (sawdust) market has been anything but "abundant". I agree that pellets are priced high right now, but let's not forget that there was a run on new stoves this summer like no other time in history. Sure, we could also say that the pellet manufacturers could/should have predicted the increase in demand and planned accordingly, but it also fair to say that this is a relativly new industry and the pellet companies will get better at responding to the market.

    I get that everybody with a stove is pissed about higher pellet prices this year, but to compare the pellet industry to the oil industry, as far as thrust-worthyness goes, is insane. OPEC is a group of oil producing nations that gets together regularly to "set" the price of oil by manipulating production. We have seen this some a few times over the past two months. Demand is down...the price goes down...OPEC slows production to artificially drive up prices. The consumer loses every time. I have seen no evidence of colusion between the various pellet manufacturers.

    Big Oil (& Propane & LNG) has a long history of market fixing. Enjoy the prices right now, because as sure as the tide goes out and comes in, they will go up. The worst part about the Oil issue is that the prices most likely go up from demand next month, but rather from a decision by OPEC to further reduce production. By the way, I got a automatic propane delicery today and I have saved about 60% over the same quarter last year.

    Viva Le Pellet Revolution! :)
  10. trogers

    trogers New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
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    183
    Loc:
    Southern NH
    Hear hear!
    Actually I think that pellets manufacturers are sticking it to us worse than the oil companies.
    Think about this, the raw material is abundant, close by and not subject to monkey with suits in some office in New York speculating on the price and yet pellets have almost doubled in less than three years!
    So whos sticking it to us again?[/quote]

    Raw material is abundant? Pellets are made of saw dust and processed wood chips for the most part. The housing market came to a screeching halt a while back, so the wood waste (sawdust) market has been "abundant". I agree that pellets are priced a little high right now, but let's not forget that there was a run on new stoves this summer like no other time in history. Sure, we could also say that the pellet manufacturers could/should have predicted the increase in demand and planned accordingly, but it also fair to say that this is a relatively new industry and the pellet companies will get better at responding to the market.

    I get that everybody with a stove is pissed about higher pellet prices this year, but to compare the pellet industry to the oil industry, as far as thrust-worthiness goes, is insane. OPEC is a group of oil producing nations that gets together regularly to "set" the price of oil by manipulating production. We have seen this some a few times over the past two months. Demand is down...the price goes down...OPEC slows production to artificially drive up prices. The consumer loses every time. I have seen no evidence of collusion between the various pellet manufacturers.

    Big Oil (& Propane & LNG) has a long history of market fixing. Enjoy the prices right now, because as sure as the tide goes out and comes in, they will go up. The worst part about the Oil issue is that the prices most likely go up from demand next month, but rather from a decision by OPEC to further reduce production. By the way, I got a automatic propane delivery today and I have saved about 60% over the same quarter last year.

    Viva Le Pellet Revolution! :)
  11. trogers

    trogers New Member

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    Southern NH
    Sorry for the double post...I get so excited!
  12. ces001

    ces001 New Member

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    Loc:
    Rhode Island
    The point I was trying to make was that HHO tripled in only one year, pellets did not. Pellets went up in price because of increased demand which is a basic concept. The bigger picture is that we need several alternatives to heating oil, but they are very slow in coming. I contemplated my pellet stove purchase for two years before finally taking the plunge. Natural gas is not available where I live and I don't want to hassle with stacking and splitting wood. That leaves me with pellets.(and did I mention that buying pellets is buying "American") Heating oil may be cheap today but don't bet on it staying that way. Now that we have established the fact that both the pellet and oil industries are in it for the profit, I am sure that we can agree that the more choices we have, the better off we will be.
  13. MrKLeen

    MrKLeen New Member

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    Loc:
    So. NH
    I really don't think the pellet companies are sticking it to us there was a true supply/demand issue coupled with ridiculous gasoline prices, and I dont believe there was anything more to it than that. There was a huge boom in Pellet stove sales due to just under $5 a gallon heating oil in July (It got to 4.59 at my oil co. and they are typically the cheapest around). Construction was down so there was a lack of sawdust and beyond that, the facilities just have not been in place to pump out any more pellets. I know of 2 other pellet mills that have just come online or will be soon in NH alone so hopefully next year, supply will not be as much of a factor. Oil is a much more complex commodity. We got screwed hard by speculation in the markets, refining issues, and many levels of extremely greedy people. Thats not to say the people who deal in pellets aren't greedy, after all we are in a capitalistic society. Personally I dont consider HHO at $2.60 cheap fuel by any stretch. if it gets <2.00 bucks a gallon that might be a different story. At the end of the day having a choice is truly a great tool, at that point we vote with our wallets and let the markets do what they do.


    ***EDIT*** - Holy crap this thread active, there were 6 posts in the time it took me to write this :)
  14. welshcob

    welshcob New Member

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    Capital District, NY
    Oh, let me stick my neck out here.<G> I don't think the pellet companies (either manufacturers or dealers) are "stickiing it" to anyone. When the price of crude oil hit $140 a barrel, the price of EVERYTHING was forced upwards. Raw materials don't magically beome pellets, nor do they jump into the bag on their own - it takes energy to manufacture and transport, not to mention all those plastic bags which I'm sure are more expensive than they were two years ago. I just opened a pallet of pellets this weekend, and I can tell you the Clean Energy folks did not stint on the wrapping - I'm sure it cost them for all that plastic, but I feel comfortable that my pellets have been well protected. My brother is an independent trucker, so I have a good idea what it costs to transport those pallets of pellets.

    Let me see.....horse feed, chicken feed, baled wood shavings, hay. All of these things have doubled in price in the past 18 months because the costs of production and transportation have doubled. And you folks are whining because pellets have increased less than 50% ???

    I just jumped on the pellet stove bandwagon this year because I literally could not have paid to heat this 200 year old house on $4.39 a gallon HHO. As the price of oil has come back down (to last year's inflated levels) the payback on the pellet stove will take a bit longer than the one year I originally calculated. But even with $300 a ton pellets versus today's $2.69 a gallon HHO, my FUEL costs are much cheaper running the pellet stove.

    Remember, the reduction in the price of crude has only been within the past few weeks. It will take some time for that to trickle down.
  15. itworks

    itworks New Member

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    Yes the pellet and oil industries are both in it for the profit, forgive me but what industry's business model is targeted at a loss or even a break even? I too did a lot of research before buying my pellet stove, and I think I made the correct decision. I'm just sure burning pellets at this time makes economic sense.
  16. sydney1963

    sydney1963 New Member

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    I think we are very smart to have a couple of options.
  17. MrKLeen

    MrKLeen New Member

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    ...and thats the bottom line.
  18. ces001

    ces001 New Member

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    Loc:
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    I agree with you. Even if the price of oil keeps dropping, I will stick with my pellet stove. The oil companies are just waiting for the chance to jack the price back up again.
  19. hoverfly

    hoverfly Minister of Fire

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    I will be holding on to mine and using it once in a while if oil goes lower, can't beat constant heat in a drafty home. If oil delivery guys are smart they better get in to the business of delivering pellets to homes as well.
  20. mjbrown

    mjbrown Feeling the Heat

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    Hartland,Me.
    i dont care if they drop the price of oil to $1 per gallon....which we will never see again.the big oil companies are only going to get what it takes to fill my car with gas to get to work. i have a full barrel of oil, and 4 tons of pellets, and the pellets should get me thru the winter . if not, i will buy more pellets. the oil WILL go back up.imho, it was only brought down because the oil companies were not making any money, and once they suck people back in, the price will go back up.

    mike
  21. jeff6443

    jeff6443 New Member

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    Thats an easy one I have NG I froze last winter in this house and paid
    . Spent 4500.00 for woodstove complete w install . So far free wood . Tis year
    not dry enough . But next year thanks to you guys . I m ready
    so I ll switch back when I recover my 4500.00 and think burning sucks .
    Ever see a person s face when they walk into your house and see it feel it
    I like this way of life the scroung the cut the split the stack . just my 2 cents PS I am a cheap guy when its daily cash
    I m always looking for the free lunch JM
  22. Catfishjack

    Catfishjack Member

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    Loc:
    Northern NY
    I use kerosene. It is currently $2.90 per gallon where I reside. I paid $230.00 a ton for pellets/ no tax...Kerosene would have to be $2.30 per gallon for me to heat cheaper than pellet. Pellet heat is better in my family's opinion than kerosene...I don't see kerosene going down that far...if it does ..oh well..it will go back up again..it will follow the economy...so will pellets.....Hmmmmmmmmmm..Pellets...I like em!! My 2 cents: I will give my money to the pellet people..I'm tired thatsgiving my money to some sheik in a country where I don't live.....
  23. Hammerjoe

    Hammerjoe Member

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    What do you guys think will happen if oil goes up?
    Do you think pellets will stay at the price they are?
    No of course not, they will go up even more.
    I only pray that comes spring oil has not increased by a whole lot and then maybe we will see a drop in the pellets price.
    If oil goes up I can almost guarantee you that pellets will go up as well.

    Less than three years ago a bag of pellets here in the Maritimes Canada cost $3.70.
    It is being sold these days at $6.49. Do the math.

    You guys strike me funny with the excuses that theres a shortage of raw material, isnt it the same with oil crude?
    Doesnt it cost alot to extract it from the ground?
    Doesnt it have to be transported as well? I dont recall shipping pellets from Saudi Arabia, do you?
    Doesnt it take energy to convert it to fuel? I wonder who uses more energy?
    Doesnt it have to be transported to your tank? Do you get your pellets delivered or do you drive your pick up truck to pick them up? If yes how much does that cost in gas?

    So again whos sticking it to us?

    I am sorry but comparing pellets to oil I think pellets lose in every economic aspect, theres no justification why pellets are not cheaper than oil.
  24. sydney1963

    sydney1963 New Member

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    Not enough sawdust.
  25. Lobstah

    Lobstah New Member

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    "I am sorry but comparing pellets to oil I think pellets lose in every economic aspect, theres no justification why pellets are not cheaper than oil. "

    First, I think they are cheaper than oil?

    Second, of course pellets will go up if oil goes up. That's what a free market does. Anyone who produces goods or services should be able to sell those goods or services for whatever the market will bear, as long as there is no monopoly involved. Price is dictated by supply and demand. The oil market got screwed up because of speculators impacting supply. In effect, they "locked up" a major portion of future oil, and held onto those contracts, forcing the price higher and higher. Get the speculators out of the market and you'll see steadier prices. Not flat...but steadier. Want prices to drop?...open up the shale oil fields in Wyoming that more than equal the total field size of Saudi Arabia. Open up ANWR.

    On a side note, most electricity companies are not free market, as their prices are dictated by the government. They are usually allowed about  profit on their "goods", which is electricity. This is what makes taxing coal-fired powerplants so funny, because the government SPECIFIES that they pass their costs on to the consumer with a garaunteed  profit. So by taxing them, the government will actually INCREASE their profits.

    Any idea who'll be paying for that? yeah...that's right.

    Us.

    Lob
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