Help confirming some general information

[chickenthistle]

This forum has been a tremendous resource in helping us determine if a wood gasser is right for us... and I think it is but there are some "assumptions" I'm making based on hours of thread reading here that I wanted to just outright ask.
(Yes, some of these are searchable threads - but asking them in my own words makes me sure I "get it")
1) I know the difference between a face cord and full cord - but when you use the "estimation" tools based out there on current propane consumption and other factors and the tools, spreadsheets, whatever say "8" - is that face cords or cords? (Currently we heat with 100% propane - 2800 sqft + hot water + cooking + grill - 1100 gallons a year). I would "assume" it's 8 cords based on burning wood stoves over the years... but I could be VERY wrong (hence why I'm posting)
2) Rule of thumb people keep telling me is take your current furnace BTU and double for the gasser (92K high eff propane forced air... so 200K gasser)... but then I want to heat a 1200 sq ft shop on demand (maybe 3 times a week from ambient 20 degrees to 60 degrees - worst case) in winter and a future 600 sq ft green house on the shoulders of the season only. I would assume that 200K is still more than enough to do these things. Am I missing something... and consider question 3 in regards to this, 2 here is more of a statement
3) Everything I read here (and elsewhere) tells me this is a mostly a wasted effort (wasted may be too strong - how about inefficient) without thermal storage... Am I getting a correct read on that? And then - next question - is 500 gallons "enough"?
4) This is an observation that I have made and am looking to have it validated or rebuked... seems like gasser projects never end, are always in a state of "improvement", and end up being very expensive endeavors. Looks like most of you guys ultimately end up with a dedicated shed / shack / or section of existing barn where the "boiler room" migrates to. This puts your boiler very close to your wood storage... Yes?
5) Related to question #1 - if you had a limited supply of your own wood - but the local scene of "split, 'dried' and delivered" was very active and a strong supply easily obtained for $65/fc or less... would you still do this?
6) This last one is for any dedicated gasser fan that's still reading - do you like "your brand of boiler" - pros/cons...

 

[pulse]

I can only answer question 1. To replace 1100 gallons of propane I think you are looking at 8 FULL cords.

 

[flyingcow]

I grew up never had heard of the term face cord. Just use a full cord term from here on out. And 128 cu/ft is a cord(4x4x8=128cu/ft). And don't look at a stack and guess. Get the tape measure out and measure. 8 cord x 128 cu/ft =1024 cu/ft. Thats a pretty big area. Now figure you need at least 1yrs wood ahead. So... you need 2 yrs of wood? one pile you will be using actively and the other stacked and drying for next year. NOW you got 2048 cu/ft of wood you need space for. IMO, very seldom will a wood supplier sell true dried/seasoned wood. What they consider seasoned and what you need is not the same.

Storage? Is not necessary, but for convenience it's nice. Might burn a little less wood. It will keep the gasser burning clean, so you'll have less cleanings to do. i like it.

price of wood? I was burning 1000 gals of oil. I replaced that with 6 1/2 cord of wood. At the time oil was $3 a gal. A cord of split wood delivered , up here, was $175 a cord. Oil-$3,000. Wood-$1137. But i buy my wood tree length and cut/split it ourselves. I am very lucky that i have a supplier for this wood that only charges me $95 a cord in tree length form. (BTW, a "cord" of wood delivered in this form is 5,000lbs) this wood is 95% rock maple, the rest is beech. very spoiled i am. especially since i stack my wood on pallets right off of the splitter and move pallets with a tractor. Very little handling, but a sh!tload of pallets.

as far as sizing your unit. Do a heat load calc. Don't guess. If you do storage, that should be sized correctly.

I like my Innova. Works very well. A little pricey, but before you're all done, it will get pricey. But for me, it was worth it.

Also, wood storage. Ideally, design it so you don't have to re-handle the wood. If I was building an outbuilding with a boiler in it, and you need at least 8 cords a season? 2 sections, 8 cord each? centered between boiler room. just a thought.

 

[Tennman]

Doing my early morning scan here so I have time to chime in before it all starts to hit the fan. As a regular here since being smitten with wood boiler facination, I would have to call myself a wood boiler hobbyist. It's so far removed from my profession it just somehow intrigues me. I mention this first in reference to you topic #4. Because of this facination many regular posters enjoy tinkering which probably skews the perception that endless tinkering is necessary. And remember people post here when they need to solve a problem.

1 I always think full chord when talking here because that is a defined VOLUME of wood energy.
2 Our 105 kBTU/hr propane furnace worked so I purchased a 220 kBTU/hr boiler (60 class). Looks like the 60 nailed it.
3 My take on the efficiency benefits of storage based on reading here, do not appear to be large. BUT to most here with storage the convenience is huge. I've now heated two seasons without storage to spread the install cost pain and allow me to focus on debugging the core system. Now I'm trying to decide if storage vs what we've done, which is essentially keep a fire going from Thanksgiving thru Feb is what I want to do. Being in a more mild climate affects my decision more than most users up north.
4 Be careful about being biased because of people coming here to solve their problems, to tinker or get smarter. To the VAST majority of boiler owners out there it's an appliance. This process is dirty and sometimes smoky. Some here love the boiler in the house, I will never have one in my house... period. Heaterman, who's installed many systems, recently posted that in his experience users that installed boilers outside are typically happier. I could never run mine in my home but many here will disagree.
5 That's me. I cut/split my own and buy and am still WAY ahead on my annual heating costs. #1 son is leaving the nest which reduces my slave labor so just not enough time and we're warmer at a whole lot less money than propane.
6 Have only owned one, the BioMass and am very satisfied with my decision. Down the road may upgrade if there is a big technology shift, but for the money I'm happy. If you go all the way to include storage I'd guess the boiler expense will be 30-50% of your install if you do it yourself.

OK I better go make money.

 

[b33p3r]

1. 8 full cords would be right. My oil usage was 1000 gal/year and I'm currently in the 6.5 cord range. However, this being my first year burning, I did not have the dry wood I should have for the past month. I have noticed a difference between my jan/feb dry wood and the greener wood I've been burning in March. Wood moisture DOES make a difference.
2.
3. It will be more ineffecient to burn without storage. I'm guessing i'd only burn 4.5-5 cord with storage. That's just a guess based on what I've read here. However, even burning without storage is more efficient than burning with oil. Money wise. I would have paid out $3000.00 + in oil this year. I haven't paid anything out this year. I may however purchase a load(8 cord) of logs each year at $600.00-$700.00 to get ahead on my wood piles. Every 3rd year I wouldn't have to buy a load. I would still take down a few oaks each year from my land so I know I have some real dry oak for jan/feb nights.
4. The never ending portion of these boilers is by choice mostly. I myself had to just do the bare minimum this first year. Budget restraints. So I'll add to the system each year until I'm where I want to be. Others do it complete right from the word go and never have to change another thing. Just normal maintenance. Some others on here keep tweaking their systems for convenience. And others are hard core heating fanatics that test and modify constantly to squeeze every singe BTU out of a split of wood. That's what makes this site great. You can always find help and advice about every aspect of your project. But it's not "never ending" unless that's the route you choose.
I can also get a cord of split wood locally for about $150.00 X 6.6= $975.00. Absolutely I would still burn wood instead of $3000.00 + for oil.
I have an econoburn and it has served me well this past year. A side note, my wife is a stay at home Mom who is not afraid to feed the fire when I'm not home. Otherwise I would have definately had to do storage up front or purchased a different model that could go longer on a load of wood. The econoburn 150 without storage has to tended to at a minimum of 3 times a day for a 24/7 burn. Think 7:00am, 3:00pm, 11:00pm. Hope this info helps you decide what's right for you. Beeper

 

[pwschiller]

One gallon of propane contains about 92,000 BTUs, which is quite a bit less than a gallon of fuel oil. Different species of wood contain different average BTU amounts, but I just use 20 million BTUs per cord of hardwood to keep it simple. If the wood boiler and propane boiler were equally efficient, that would work out to a little over 5 cords of wood, but most likely the wood boiler will be less efficient, so you'll be looking at 6+ cords of wood, maybe quite a bit more than that depending on the boiler, storage, how dry your wood is, etc.

Yes, you should do heat loss calculations for your house, potential shop and greenhouse. It's amazing how much it can take to heat a greenhouse covered with polyethylene, single pane glass, or even double wall polycarbonate. I did a heat loss calc for a 12' x 16' single pane glass greenhouse and the annual heat loss is far in excess of what my house uses, although that doesn't factor in the additional solar heat gain that the greenhouse would receive.

This the heat loss calculator I've been using:
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm

 

[willworkforwood]

5) Related to question #1 - if you had a limited supply of your own wood - but the local scene of "split, 'dried' and delivered" was very active and a strong supply easily obtained for $65/fc or less... would you still do this?

Welcome to the forum. Most of us don't use face cord because there seems to be no agreement on what the row width measurement is. But, if I do the math using 18", your $65 per FC, and the 8 full cord that's been suggested; it comes out to $1400. So, with that (very) approximate cost of wood per year, my answer to your question would be no. I have a 0 cost for wood, and my 12K boiler will be paid off at the end of next year (i.e. 4 years). But with anything like a $1400 wood bill, the payoff time would be more like 8-10 years, depending on fossil prices. For the time and work involved to process/handle wood, that's too long of a payoff. But that's just me - if you expect to live in that house for many years then maybe wood heat might make sense for you. Is any of that cheap nat gas that I keep hearing about likely to show up in your area anytime in the near future?

 

[b33p3r]

Willworkforwood, The only ones making out on the cheap natural gas in N.Pa and N.Y. are China,since they are the major share holders in some of the biggest drilling companies, i.e. Cabot and Chesapeake, and the politicians that are getting "Campaign Donations", you decide what campaign donations mean.

 

[chickenthistle]

My wife suggests there's enough cheap gas generated on site to heat the house... but I blame the dog.

So - this has been some really helpful information so far. Unfortunately I think without my own supply of copious timber on property (all 34 acres are field and swamp) this project falls into every single other project I have looked at for energy independence / being green / saving money... The initial cost is about $20K to "do it right", be it shed + storage + boiler + good PEX, OR $20K for geothermal for the house only OR $20K after rebates for grid tied wind OR solar...

And when I take that $20K and plug it into any spreadsheet - the paybacks on these against buying propane from "the man" in the $2.25 range (we currently pay $1.80/gal)... the "best" technology for payback is a also the one that requires the most constant intervention - wood gasser... and it's in the 11 year range (sooner if propane goes up further - longer if it stays down) - be benefit to wood gasser is - of all the technologies - it's the oNLY one that will provide heat to a greenhouse and a barn "cost free" - everything else is payback on house only. The other technologies spread out as far as nearly a 18 year playback...

And yes - I have even looked at burning corn and plating my own... but the planters, sprayers, pickers and shellers... not to mention the storage... that adds up too... and lots of moving parts there to break on me!

I guess there are no silver bullets... unless I can get cold fusion working in the barn... then...

 

[b33p3r]

Don't get too discouraged. Keep looking. I found a deal on a econoburn 150 last minute. When all was said and done it cost me $8400. That price was from start to heating my house with wood. Payback at today's oil prices ....2.5 years. After that all modifications are paid for by the savings. Of course the wood was free. Now I was told to not use anything but the expensive underground pex but my budget couldn't afford it so I did my own thing and saved about $1000.00 or more. Not as good as the top $$$ stuff but I figure I burned not more than a cord more of wood because of it. I just found out a friend of mine has an infrared heat gun so I plan on shooting my supply return within the next week. Moral of the story is do what's right for you.

 

[Como]

Is $1.80 your current price or for the last time you topped up?

I did my calcs assuming a long term average of $3, which makes wood 1/10th the cost per btu.

Here we can buy log lengths by the truck load, the price has actually fallen since last year, it is Pine but $30 per cord seems the going rate when bought in semi loads.

Logically you should pay for wood by weight.

 

[afblue]

My wife suggests there's enough cheap gas generated on site to heat the house... but I blame the dog.

So - this has been some really helpful information so far. Unfortunately I think without my own supply of copious timber on property (all 34 acres are field and swamp) this project falls into every single other project I have looked at for energy independence / being green / saving money... The initial cost is about $20K to "do it right", be it shed + storage + boiler + good PEX, OR $20K for geothermal for the house only OR $20K after rebates for grid tied wind OR solar...

And when I take that $20K and plug it into any spreadsheet - the paybacks on these against buying propane from "the man" in the $2.25 range (we currently pay $1.80/gal)... the "best" technology for payback is a also the one that requires the most constant intervention - wood gasser... and it's in the 11 year range (sooner if propane goes up further - longer if it stays down) - be benefit to wood gasser is - of all the technologies - it's the oNLY one that will provide heat to a greenhouse and a barn "cost free" - everything else is payback on house only. The other technologies spread out as far as nearly a 18 year playback...

And yes - I have even looked at burning corn and plating my own... but the planters, sprayers, pickers and shellers... not to mention the storage... that adds up too... and lots of moving parts there to break on me!

I guess there are no silver bullets... unless I can get cold fusion working in the barn... then...

How big of a Grid tied Solar system did you price thats $20K after rebates, because after I filed my taxes this year, my 4.65 KWH system cost me $8,200, so my payback is 7.5-8 years.

 

[chickenthistle]

@b33p3r - As cool as I think a setup like this would be - I just think the math speaks for itself and the numbers don't lie. This forum has been super helpful as I have learned and when people in the know (like you) say things like "the math doesn't make sense... it means something. I found a great deal on several EconoBurn models 200, 300 and the 200 outside... but that's the friggin cheapest part of the project!

@Como - $1.80/gal for the season - we do a pre-buy of all 1100 in August so our price is wholesale + a bit. BAsed on the spot and wholesale NOW - and the data over the last 10 years from the gov energy site - I imagine pre-buy this year will be about $2.20/gal for the season. My calc on payback are in a funky matrix where I have wood prices and propane prices based on local data... so I can tell you worst case is 12.1 years in payback (low propane and high wood) and best case is 6.8 years (high propane and low wood) - so in reality - it's likely about 9-10 years... and then there's the fact "things break" over time... propane can go a long way up before it REALLY makes sense to me... there's absolutely an element of the frontiersman that drives the desire for a system like this. You take that $20K in todays dollars and sink it in a stable investment... that's a LOT of propane over man, many years...
And don't make me factor in the cost of time and equipment in cutting, splitting, stacking and carrying wood...

@afblue - I don't remember exactly - and that was about 5 years ago so I would imagine prices have come down some... but some of the credits have also gone away. I had some NYSERDA dude out looking at my site and data too (we have a weather station for solar and wind historical data...

 

[willworkforwood]

Big-time kudos for the amount of research and thought you are putting into this - far more effort than most folks who wander onto this site looking at boilers. I have a feeling that whatever you wind up doing will be a good choice!

 

[barkeatr]

WHEN you said face cord i looked at your address...expecting upstate NY but I was not far off. I have been around this forum and others and it seems to me that face cord is a cord only to upstate and now western NY folks. I could be wrong but it seems that everyone else is talking real cords, as they should be, when they say cord. But round here, a cord is a face cord. sixty five dollars a face cord deliverd, split and dried is a great price. I got a load a few weeks ago of "dry" wood for my new gasser and i asked...when did you cut and split this? he says "today". I said, well there you go. He claimed since it was cherry and ash that it was dry..and maybe there is a standing dead log or two in there. Except for this load of dry wood to get me ahead, I cut my own wood since I am taking care of a sugarbush...but If i was not taking care of a sugarbush I would buy it for that price.

as far as storage..not everyone is on board with the water storage concept being critical or absoultly required. I repeat being absolutley required. Im still on the fence, but i just purchased a empyre pro 200 gassser and I dont plan on purchasing storage unless i need to. I do have a extreme high mass house so that will help. I think some of that endless tinkering that you mention has to do with balancing the storage..at least thats what Im reading. Profab, who makes the Empyre does not seem to think storage is required.

My outdoor style gasser is in process of migrating to a shed. If you know this ahead of time you can save a lot by purchasing an indoor boiler. I decided I didnt want to be totally required to heat the outbuilding and liked the saftey factor of having a outdoor boiler inside a shed and I installed the gasser in the winter and will have saved the difference in fuel oil (between outdoor and indoor units) in a couiple of months at the prices we are paying now for fuel. I have some sweet plans for a shed that I have built in the past that I can show you. I will post a picture later on.

good luck and welcome.

 

[barkeatr]

On the subject of boilers migrating into sheds, This is the last woodshed my last boiler was built around. Sadly, weeks after finishing it, it burned to the ground, taking the Central boiler with it. This was a greenhouse also. We think it was a failed zero clearance chimney...I had been cleaning it several time a year with a wire brush (vs nylon) and that may have contributed to its failure but who knows.

Rising out of the ashes and the insurance payment is a new gasser installed 7 weeks seven hours and fourteen minutes and 1200 dollars in fuel oil later. I will rebuild the barn/slash greenhouse/wood storage/deer stand/man cave around it, again. THis one will very simliar but longer to house my tractor. I even had a log cutting rack on the back side of this thing. I would roll the logs up on a ramp with my tractor, onto a flat top and buck up the logs. from there they went right into the wood racks. Minimum lifting of logs off the ground was the goal. That burned also. The empyre pro is UL listed and Ok by code folks.

barkeatr