HELP! Don't know which to go with

[begreen]

I'm surprised the bank and insurance agreed to mortgage/cover the house without a heating system.

So now we need some real data to help. It's impossible to recommend anything without knowing the details of the house and what your budget is for this year. Nothing, short of electric heat is going to be cheap to install and electric would depend on how well the house is wired. Was the house inspected before you purchased it?

Wood will require a good stove to heat the house 24/7 and it will need you to be feeding it regularly (no vacations here). It will also need you to have several cords of DRY wood, cut, stacked and ready to burn by say Sept. A cord of wood may cost around $200+, and you may need 4-6 cords. We need more info before advising what is feasible to install.

A pellet stove will need to be fed 1-2 times a day depending on the weather. The pellets must be stored in a dry location. They are delivered on a pallet in one ton lots. You can expect to go through at least 5 tons. Depending on the size of the house, a single pellet stove may not heat the place well when it gets near zero degrees. Given that the stove will be mission critical, I would not consider a used pellet stove. If considering a new one, we don't have enough information to advise yet on what or whether it will work.

Given there is no heat at all, I suspect that you'll be in for at least $2-3,000 to get the house properly heated. Even a basic wood stove is going to cost at least $1500 installed and then you still need wood, a lot of it. Pellet stoves are a lot more expensive, figure at least $3,500 installed. Figure $1000-$1500 for electric baseboard heat if the service is large enough to support the load, otherwise maybe double that figure. That's why I keep asking about budget. It may be more practical to have a central furnace or boiler installed by Sears or the gas company because they may finance it. That will certainly add the most to the house's value and will give you peace of mind. In this case, unless your budget supports it, the woodstove may need to wait for another year.

How many sq ft is the house?
How is the 1st floor laid out? Is it an open floorplan or one with many small rooms?
How large is the room where the woodstove was installed?
Do you have any pictures you can post of the existing stove installation or the previous one?

 

[emergencymom]

I will post some pics of the woodburner. The house is 1600 sq. ft. 2 bdrms downstairs regular size nothing big. 1 room upstairs, open loft. I don't want to go to high on either one but if it will be better in the long run I will spend the money. The sellers had a propane tank there but had it removed. They said that the woodburner heated the whole house, sometimes she would have to open the windows bc it was so hot. Hopefully they will be moving out by the end of this month so I can get in there and really look. Im worried bc she lied to me about the woodburner so I hope nothing else changes.

 

[Harley]

They used a woodburner. But the woodburner that was in the house when I went to look at it was not the woodburner that was in there when my insurance showed up to take pics. The sellers did not say anything about switching them out. The old woodburner that they put back in was the original one from when the house was built. Talk about a shock when insurance said they wouldnt' cover me.

Sorry for going off topic, EM, but I think in most states.... what they did sounds like a problem (no - I'm not an attorney). Unless it was disclosed to you that they were taking out the (assuming newer) stove, then I would think it should still be there (the same with the propane tank, unless it was leased from a gas company). If owned by the seller, both the stove and the tank would certainly qualify under most state's real estate law's that they were both "attached" to the house you bought, and should stay there.

I'd give a call to your closing attorney just to get the opinion there... especially if the seller is still in the house - you may have some leverage there.

 

[Hogwildz]

I apologize if someone already mentioned this.....but....
If you go with a pellet stove, and its your only source of heat. Have you given power outage any consideration?
With a wood stove you would at least get some heat in the event of power failure.
With a pellet stove, I believe you are in a predicament. No electric, no pellet stove burning. If I am wrong someone please correct me.

 

[GVA]

I apologize if someone already mentioned this.....but....
If you go with a pellet stove, and its your only source of heat. Have you given power outage any consideration?
With a wood stove you would at least get some heat in the event of power failure.
With a pellet stove, I believe you are in a predicament. No electric, no pellet stove burning. If I am wrong someone please correct me.

Nah you're right....
But many have battery backup's now.
And alot of people have generators now.
Regardless pellet stoves are easier to run during a power failure that the good old fashioned furnace or boiler, which also needs power to run.

 

[Cath]

...
Sorry for going off topic, EM, but I think in most states.... what they did sounds like a problem (no - I'm not an attorney). Unless it was disclosed to you that they were taking out the (assuming newer) stove, then I would think it should still be there (the same with the propane tank, unless it was leased from a gas company). If owned by the seller, both the stove and the tank would certainly qualify under most state's real estate law's that they were both "attached" to the house you bought, and should stay there.

I'd give a call to your closing attorney just to get the opinion there... especially if the seller is still in the house - you may have some leverage there.

Harley,
I'm glad you brought this up. I was resisting the urge to say something since she already has a lot going on. I think you are right but it may depend upon whether they were "permanently affixed", which is a definition that might vary from one jurisdiction to the next.

Additionally, she may be stuck in a bit of a grey area where she did know (or should have known) that the heating system most people would expect (the propane) was gone. Presumably that was acceptable because of the back up heat (the stove). However, depending upon state law the stove may be considered as something more along the lines of an appliance which is not expected to go with the house. In fact, some Buyers expect the Seller to take those with them. A couple of the used stoves I'm looking at are ones that house sellers need to get rid of before they close on their house.

On the other hand, common sense suggests that there is a reasonable expectation that a house will have some sort of heat, one way or the other. In an odd sort of way switching the stoves --rather than simply removing the newer one-- is arguably evidence that the Sellers knew the buyer expected there to be a stove. If Em had a home inspection that could document the stove she was expecting to receive. In fact, if her inspector included it as part of the inspection that would suggest she expected it would go with the house.

At a minimum she should ask her attorney about it. If she doesn't get any satisfaction (e.g. a concession in price) but she has to go through with the sale she should ask her attorney about making a claim against against the Sellers and possibly their agent. In fairness to the agent they may have known nothing about this and can't really make the Sellers return the stove. But the agent should have insurance and it's possible their carrier may pay nuisance value or more.
~Cath

 

[elkimmeg]

Cath and Harley are on to something Check with the local permitting dept to see which stove is the permitted installation Stove A or Stove B
now if either are un permitted boy do you have grounds to leverage the buyers to make right along with your bank and mortage co. The Realator also has to present the conditions of the home they are selling Do they know the stove was switched? Is it legally installed code compliant? I would find out and leverage your findings in a form of reducing the selling price to replace an illegal stove.. I don't know about you but if the did a switch I would start wondering what else was not disclosed or what they could be hiding Make a call to your inspections office and start doing research Better to find out things before you own them. Do not rely on your home inspector concerning stoves and chimney conditions. I hate to tell you this most home inspectors have a hard time determining the rear end from their elbow.

 

[karl]

Do you know what type of stove they took out? If not the model number the size of it? Also, to clarify, have you bought this house, are thinking about buying, put earnest money down? What stage are you in? If you're thinking about buying it then you may be screwed on the stove they took out. If you put earnest money down on it, I would ask for it back. If you have already bought it and the stove was gone when you took possession of the house, I would call your mortage company and tell them you're not going to pay for house. My grandfather was an attorney and he used this tactic with alot of clients who got screwed over. If you put alot of money down on the house you could run into problems, but if you only put a minimal amount down you have the bank in a very bad postion and you can easily make them fight for you. They have attorneys as employees so it's just the cost of doing business to them. Tell them you didn't receive what was promised from the seller and you're not paying for it. They don't want to forclose on a house. They always lose their ass when they do that. There is a house two doors away that they foreclosed on. It had a $300,000 mortgage on it and the house is probably worth that much or atleast close to it. I talked to a friend at the bank about it and he said," The bank would take less for it. Alot less." I am considering offering them 180 for it and then doing some work to it and flipping it, but that's another story.

Check your state law and see where you stand. If it falls in a grey area, tell the bank where to go. They will either get you some money from the seller or eat it themselves. A couple thousand dollars for a stove is chump change compared to what they stand to lose.

 

[Cath]

What stage are you at: 1)Offer, 2)Acceptance, 3)Inspection (if any), 4)Purchase and Sales, or
5) Closing? Do you have an attorney?

Conventional heating systems (in this case probably the propane) are likely ususally considered to be an integral part of the property. (see the legal definition of fixture at the bottom). However, from the limited info here it seems you knew that system was gone when you agreed to buy it.

It's still possible the stove was also a fixture. The litmus test might be whether anything was damaged when it was removed. Despite the fact that the old stove is there now there may still be some damage from the removal.

On the one hand if it is a fixture then the Seller's should not have removed the existing stove. On the other hand if it isn't a fixture then it is personal property they should not have left behind the old stove (installed or otherwise) and you can insist that they remove it. Since there is some inconvenience and expense involved that gives you some leverage, but probably not enough to get a new heating system, or stove, or even a sustantial contribution towards a new one, but at least it would offset part of the expense of having it removed.

The Sellers cannot have their cake and eat it too. However, I would start from the position that it is a fixture, that they should have left the good stove, (and taken the old one) and take it from there. Either way you may have some leverage if you haven't closed. Although it's tough to try to negotiate after the Purchase and Sales.

Depending upon what stage you are at, going to the bank may be helpful if the sale was contingent upon obtaining financing. However, you may still be at risk for a breach of contract claim if the bank has approved --or was on the verge of approving-- the financing.

Elk may have a point about whether the stove is permitted or not. If the Sellers are still the legal owners then they may have compliance issues. If the local authorities got involved quickly enough they might force the Seller to bring it into compliance. I don't know how motivated they'll be since since it isn't burning season. Depending upon whether you are committed to buy or not the local authorities may simply take the issue up with you as the cold season approaches. In which case going to them may put pressure on you to replace the stove more quickly than you would like.

Good luck and keep us posted.
~Cath

FIXTURE - Legal Definition
Noun: a piece of equipment which has been attached to real estate in such a way as to be part of the premises and its removal would do harm to the building or land. Thus, a fixture is transformed from a movable asset to an integral part of the real property.

Essentially a question of fact, it often arises when a tenant has installed a lighting fixture, **a heater**, window box or other item which is bolted, nailed, screwed or wired into the wall, ceiling or floor.

 

[emergencymom]

Yes I talked to my laywer today, he looked at the purchase agreement and it does not state "original wood-burner." It is up to me if I want to pursue. The sellers said that the wood-burner that I saw when I looked at the house was his fathers. It was not on the property anymore as of yesterday. I have pics of the original and the insurance won't cover this one bc of the mark that is on the water heater. I am getting weery here, tired of living in hotel and just want in the house. I will talk to lawyer Monday and let him know what I want to do and he will let me know what he will do for me. The sellers did offer yesterday to put a propane tank back on the property, told them I wasn't sure yet (tired of thinking). I really want to go with a wood-burner I think. I have been checking the ones out that everyone has been telling me about.

Thanks again

 

[karl]

How much are you paying for the house? How much is a wood burner? At the least I'd make the home owners meet you halfway on the price of a new one. That seems fair. Actually, I think you'd be getting the short end of the deal. That thing looks like a furnace and it is the main source of heat for the house. If I sold my house and took the furnace out of it when I left. There is no way I'd get away with it. A quick google search showed that propanes tanks can run two to three thousand dollars new. How close will that come to buying a wood burner?

 

[GVA]

I don't know about you but if the did a switch I would start wondering what else was not disclosed or what they could be hiding Make a call to your inspections office and start doing research Better to find out things before you own them.

Maybe thepeople selling live next to bhodie and want to send the smoke onto his property with the old polluting stove, as a final farewell

 

[begreen]

Em, I need to see these pictures a bit larger. PM me if you need help. That looks a lot more like a wood furnace, not a common woodstove. What is that grey appliance to the left of the wood furnace? Is that a propane warm air furnace?

 

[Cath]

Yes I talked to my laywer today, he looked at the purchase agreement and it does not state "original wood-burner." It is up to me if I want to pursue. ... I am getting weery here, tired of living in hotel and just want in the house. I will talk to lawyer Monday and let him know what I want to do and he will let me know what he will do for me. The sellers did offer yesterday to put a propane tank back on the property, told them I wasn't sure yet (tired of thinking). I really want to go with a wood-burner I think. I have been checking the ones out that everyone has been telling me about.

Of course you want to pursue it. The question is how far. You don't say whether your attorney gave you a legal opinion on where you stand or what your the ball park figure on your damages are if they don't return the stove you were expecting. The fact that they offered you a propane tank suggests that you are in the right here and they know it. I realize you're tired but you need to stay strong long enough to get what you're entitled to, or at least as much of it as possible. As far as the hotel stay, if they are in breach of contract they may also be responsible for any expenses you incur as a result of that breach. So if you wind up staying there beyond the closing date because of that breach they might be legally responsible for reimbursing you. So they should feel that pressure as much or more as you do.

My suggestion is to price a replacement for something comparable to what you were expecting, including labor and incidental materials. Depending upon the age of it take 10% to 25% for depreciation. I'm guessing by the time you're done with the math you'll be looking at $5,000 to $6,000 or more. If you can provide larger copies of the pictures I'm sure someone here can help you place a realistic replacement cost on it.

I'm placing a low depreciation percentage on it since they probably wouldn't have bothered taking it if it weren't in good condition.

Do not settle short on this. If you accept their offer I suspect your cost of heating will be higher than it would have. That's why you want a wood heater, isn't it? If you try to negotiate what I'm suggesting you'll still be out of pocket but you'll probably recoup that expense over time if you get a efficient heating system.

Please post back here with more info --hopefully including better pictures-- so someone here can help you put a reasonable figure together. It would be great if you could go over that info with your Attorney on Monday.

By the way, where does the Seller's agent fit into all of this? Have your attorney ask them for the name of their malpractice carrier. See if that doesn't motivate them to encourage there client to do the right thing. Remember they haven't gotten paid yet so it wouldn't hurt to ask them to reduce their commission to contribute to the cost of a new heating system.

Stay strong and don't let them take advantage of you. You have all the morale support I can offer you from a behind a keyboard half a cyber space away.
~Cath

 

[Harley]

Yes I talked to my laywer today, he looked at the purchase agreement and it does not state "original wood-burner." It is up to me if I want to pursue. The sellers said that the wood-burner that I saw when I looked at the house was his fathers. It was not on the property anymore as of yesterday. I have pics of the original and the insurance won't cover this one bc of the mark that is on the water heater. I am getting weery here, tired of living in hotel and just want in the house. I will talk to lawyer Monday and let him know what I want to do and he will let me know what he will do for me. The sellers did offer yesterday to put a propane tank back on the property, told them I wasn't sure yet (tired of thinking). I really want to go with a wood-burner I think. I have been checking the ones out that everyone has been telling me about.

Thanks again

EM - sorrry if this is bringing more stress to an already inherently stressful situation. - if what was there when you looked at the house and agreed to buy - then it should stay with the house. I believe any permitted stove would be considered "attached" to the property, unlike most other appliances (which would be spelled out in the P&S. That being said, you can either close on the house the way it is now, push that issue, or maybe get other concessions. In any event, you should make sure the stove there is permitted (as Elk said) and inspected. I think you need to make sure there is a good reliable source of heat for the home - don't let the sellers take advantave of you because you want out of the hotel.

 

[begreen]

I get the feeling that we aren't seeing the full picture with the house in regards to heating. It's very hard to advise when we don't have the details. Get the issues with stove and propane tank resolved. If and when you move in, take lots of pictures and post them together with descriptions of layouts, room dimensions and other details and we can advise you better.

If that is a propane furnace in the basement and there's natural gas in the street, that would be where I'd looked hardest for the first year. Very often these furnaces can be converted to natural gas. If that is a wood furnace alongside of it, there will be little aesthetic satisfaction and a lot of work to keep it fueled and running well. This is not something I'd take on lightly. FWIW, the wood furnace in the picture doesn't look like it's had the best life. It could be more of a liability than an asset. You might be much better off with a smaller stove in the living room if that is possible.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Em, I need to see these pictures a bit larger. PM me if you need help. That looks a lot more like a wood furnace, not a common woodstove. What is that grey appliance to the left of the wood furnace? Is that a propane warm air furnace?

hey , is that the stove that is there now? or the one that left? also, are those horseshoes on the top door? the unit looks like a furnace that we built , probably in the early 90's if its what i think it is, hard to tell from the pictures , im with BG , can we blow em up a bit? if nothing else , i can help you with that unit if its what i think it is and its the one still there. being a furnace , its epa exempt but its been through testing for UL compliance at intertek testing and is actually a pretty good unit , my dad has one in his basement , heats his whole 3000 sq ft house with it except when its bitter cold (not often it gets that way here in Va.)

 

[BrotherBart]

It looks like that 24-G I always wanted Mike.

 

[begreen]

Mike, do they normally grey out in the front like that or does that unit look overfired?

 

[elkimmeg]

Begreen exactly what I noticed when I blew up in photo shop. I suspect either the door is warped or the gasket is gone but I concure evidence is there to indicate overfiring.
I also concure with NBE green it appears to be another furnace to the right of the picture.


I also concure with Begreen we are not getting the entire story or picture of this situation. I do not agree with the lawyers comment .
You are paying him to protect your interest, it seems to me he just passed the buck. I know if it were me I would not take it sitting down , but demand he earn his pay.

Personally I gave you the first course of action see if any wood burner was permitted and get the model number. If you fill me in, I know code better than any lawyer and can advise
steps to leverage your position If you won't do it Pm me the address of the home and the tell number of the insppections dept. I will call and get it straightened out..
the way I feel is I almost want to reach threw the computer screen and shake sense int to you and your lawyer and tell him to do his job

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Mike, do they normally grey out in the front like that or does that unit look overfired?

actually BG it either badly needs gasketing , or it has been rode hard and put away wet. no they normally do not gray out like that. looking at the smaller photo's it kinda looks like its been repainted with somthing , is the stove painted brown??? if not , if thats my unit , it is painted with 1400 degree tolerant stove paint (charcoal gray) to do that means the skin temps were above 1400 degrees on a regular basis, baffle is probably missing , stove is definately sucking air from somewhere, tough as that unit is though i'd say its likely gaskets , or they were burning wood with the lower door draft open ( its for coal mix as well as starting if there is a sluggish draft) or with the lower door cracked. i guarentee they were getting MONDO heat out of it, that stove was rated at 300 ft heating capacity, running it that hard in a 1600 square ft house , it mucta been like an oven in there!

 

[stoveguy2esw]

It looks like that 24-G I always wanted Mike.

actually the 24-g was a single door on legs , was a heck of a unit though. but didnt have an ash pan and worked through ductwork with a 450 cfm blower plugged into a mag thermostat heated up to about 2500 sq ft , and took a 26 inch log length

 

[BrotherBart]

It looks like that 24-G I always wanted Mike.

actually the 24-g was a single door on legs , was a heck of a unit though. but didnt have an ash pan and worked through ductwork with a 450 cfm blower plugged into a mag thermostat heated up to about 2500 sq ft , and took a 26 inch log length

Old guy can't remember his numbers. The one I walked around once a month for a least a year looked pretty much like the current furnace without the glass. Should have bought is and put it in the basement and saved 21 years of lugging wood up the stairs.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

if it was a solid door it was either built before 1996 or it was not ours. to the best of our knowledge we have the only wood furnace that has a glass door (dont hang me if im wrong , i just havent seen another one) turned out to be a nice selling feature , you can just go down a few steps and check your fire instead of opening the door to see whats happening in there.

 

[BrotherBart]

if it was a solid door it was either built before 1996 or it was not ours. to the best of our knowledge we have the only wood furnace that has a glass door (dont hang me if im wrong , i just havent seen another one) turned out to be a nice selling feature , you can just go down a few steps and check your fire instead of opening the door to see whats happening in there.

It was solid door and it was 1985. The big giveaway was the word Englander on it. :coolsmirk: