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Help me choose a Stove!

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Machria, Nov 7, 2012.

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  1. btuser

    btuser Minister of Fire

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    I was told this is one reason old cast iron stoves did so well. The ornate castings and dimpled surfaces would add a lot of surface area, but people attributed it to the stove material rather than the engineering. A fan blowing over the metal creates accelerated convection so it's not a deal killer for me, but there's definitely an elegance to no power at all.

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  2. MarkinNC

    MarkinNC Minister of Fire

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    My 2 cents:

    Since you are installing it in a corner I would get a heat shielded convective stove and not a pure radiant stove to push the air to the other end. My convective stove pushes the air from one corner of my 1600 SF house to the other without the use of fans.

    I know folks on here will say you can cook on a rock stove but the plate/cast stoves are going to be better for cooking. Perhaps you have a gas stove and this is not an issue? I installed my stove after loosing power for several days when my kids were 2 and 3. I did not enjoy going outside to cook on my grill or what have you. I started out looking at Hearthstone stoves and ended up with a pragmatic steel stove. Cooking was one of my primary considerations. We got the pewter door and the fancy legs to make it better.

    Oh good on you for getting a stove too. May I suggest making a cardboard cutout of the stoves you are looking at and placing it where you want to put the stove. The stove we were being steered toward had to be 16+ from the wall. It was a top loader and had numerous gaskets to maintain (or fail) and would have been tricky to clean. The stove we selected was able to be about 4" from our wall and tucked into the room nicely (one door gasket and easy to clean).

    I think Browningbar's point about burning 24/7 is particularly cogent.

    You have a lot of glass and if your house could use some insulation I would upsize some.

    I bet stove sales will be brisk in your area for a while:)
  3. Waulie

    Waulie Minister of Fire

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    Unless of course, you get the Progress Hybrid with the cook top.

    I love this thing. :)

    Attached Files:

    ditchrider likes this.
  4. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    I do wonder about this. My experience seems to agree with several others, that a bigger stove - due to it's larger surface area, can keep a place warmer at a lower surface temperature. However, theory disagrees, for the following reasons:

    1. Volume goes up much faster than surface area. Volume is x*y*z, whereas Area is only 2xy+2yz+2zx, or s cubed versus s squared. For example, the Jotul 600 is almost 2x the volume of a Jotul 400, but has only 22% more surface area, using rough envelope dimensions.

    2. Radiated power is [​IMG], meaning there is a much higher dependency on surface temperature (to the fourth power) than surface area (to the first power). So much so, that surface temperature should completely dominate, regardless of area.

    I'd like to hear from a real physist on this, as I'm sure I'm missing something. Me? I'm heating a similar space to the OP with a stove the size of a 1970's TV console (only a slight exageration), and have been running surface temps of 250 - 350 F, versus a lot of people I see posting 550 - 650 F. My room is a toasty 70 - 73 F at those low surface temp's, so I do think there must be something to BAR's surface area statement.
  5. mfglickman

    mfglickman Minister of Fire

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    Just send me, BAR and Waulie stoves to try out every few years...we'd be happy to send you reports! :)

    Money no object, make sure you have the clearances and get a firebox at least one size bigger than you think you need.
    ditchrider and BrowningBAR like this.
  6. Machria

    Machria Minister of Fire

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    Thanks all, and keep the info coming!! You guys have a wealth of Stove info!! :cool:

    MarkinNC, thanks, good insight. I can't do a mock-up "yet", because I will be removing the corner wall where the current fireplace is, which is where I will put the freestander. I'm going to leave the top part, and put some decrateive (and heat shield) stone on it and the underside, but the bottom part under the white shelf/strip is coming out. And your right, LI stoves sales is going WAY up!! Each showroom I walk in, they tell me they have been swamped.

    Speaking of cooking, my dream was always to be able to cook wood fired pizza's on a hotplate slid into the top area of a stove, and bake a turkey or bread.... but I'm finding there are not many cook type stoves, other than the full blown old fashioned kitchen type ones. The ONLY one I really see is the Vermont Bun Baker, which is a pretty small stove. I'm REALLY surpised after searching, there are not more stoves with ovens attached. Why is that, no market for it? Seems like there should be, it's a free oven!!

    What do you folks think of the Enerzone Destination 2.3? 2.3 cu ft firebox, is that going to be large enough? My lean to this one is, I saw an Enerzone (the big 3.4) burning in a showroom, and it really burned nice, seemed well made, and had the simple look I like. But the Destination is even more modern looking, and I really like the log storage under it. I'm just not sure it's big enough for this large, drafty window room??

    Keep in mind, this is really not a full time heater, it's more of a nice supplimental heat source, and ornamental fireplace. But I think once i start burning in a stove compared to my current fireplace (which throws very little heat), I'm going to be more on the heat side of things!! ;)

    Here's a better picof 1/2 the room...

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  7. Machria

    Machria Minister of Fire

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    Not sure what you mean about the 70's TV? Meaing it is large? OR meaning it is small? Screen sizes of TV's in the 70's if you recall were alot smaller than today. 20" was a very good size TV. But on the other side, they were not 1" thick!! So you see my confusion on your reference, are you saying your stove is small heating a big space? or large, heating a big space? I do like the Jotul stoves of course, they are nice quality. What size / which model Jotul would you recommend if I wnt that route?
  8. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    Okay, then why does the 30, which weighs less than the Defiant, is able to heat the same room from the same chimney just as well at a low temperature? And why does the 30 heat better at lower temperatures than the Vigilant did which weighs about the same. All three stoves were in the same room using the same chimney and liner.

    These questions aren't to prove that the science is wrong, but more to find out what other factors are in play.
  9. Machria

    Machria Minister of Fire

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    Clearances are a non-issue. After removing the lower part (white part and below) of the corner wall pictured, I have the entire corner which will be durarocked, with a stone finish floor to ceiling. I'll simply place the stove at minimum clearance from each side.

    So what size would you recommend, money no object and plenty of space?

    .
  10. Waulie

    Waulie Minister of Fire

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    Because it's not cold yet? ;)

    Is it possible the temps on the 30 are higher all around than on the VC's? Meaning, maybe the VC's registered higher top temps but lower side/front temps. It's a thought. Also, maybe the window on the 30 is bigger, letting more heat escape the stove?
  11. Waulie

    Waulie Minister of Fire

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    Machria, I would get about a 3 cft firebox for that large space. I prefer more radiant type stoves for open/loft areas myself, but opinions do vary on this. I have cathedral ceilings with a loft and used to have a convective stove. Now I have a radiant stove and it does a better job at warming the lower level faster without quickly sending all that hot air toward the ceiling. Again, opinions on this vary. Just my experience.
  12. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    I'm taking that into account.

    At lower temps the sides and front of the stove temps seem comparable, but I will monitor that to see if there is a difference. Also, the amount of glass seems about the same, if not a slight edge to the Defiant.
  13. Machria

    Machria Minister of Fire

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    How about the difference in design, shape of firebox, secondary burn tubes, air intake sizes and location... seems to me there are ALOT of factore to be considered.

    Back to what I need?? It's COLD on Long Island with no heat!!! ::-)
  14. Waulie

    Waulie Minister of Fire

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    I would pick out some models you find appealing that have largish, say 2.5+ cft firebox's. Try to narrrow it down to a few of your favorite choices. Then, create a new post asking for opinions on those models.

    As you've no doubt gleaned, the answer to steel, cast, or soapstone is "yes".
  15. Waulie

    Waulie Minister of Fire

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    Yeah, I know. My internet humor sucks.
  16. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    Ah! wasn't sure.
  17. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I had the Quad IR down but after seeing the room I changed my mind. I would go with a mid-sized convective stove. There are lots of choices. You will have to tell us your preference for style and design. For staters look at the Enviro Kodiak 1700 line. If you want it in a nice cast iron jacket, the same firebox is in the Enviro Boston.
  18. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Much greater efficiency?
  19. BrowningBAR

    BrowningBAR Minister of Fire

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    But, if mass plays a bigger part and both stoves have the same surface temp, shouldn't the stove with more mass provide more heat at lower temps (based on the previously mentioned theory)?
  20. Machria

    Machria Minister of Fire

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    Thanks.... that Enviro looks very similar (if not the same?) as the Enerzone Solution 3.4... Enerzone and a few other brands are made by SBI, I wonder if Enviro is as well?? Sure looks the same.....?

    What is meant by "Convective"? Aren't they all?

    My house and preference style as you can see in pic is mostly modern/contemporary.
  21. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    All stoves are not convective. Many cast iron stoves are radiant. They heat by radiating heat in all directions. Unjacketed steel stoves and some soapstone stoves behave similarly.
  22. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    You must be young! In the 1970's, the common family room TV was installed in a big wooden console, just shy of a Volkswagon Beetle in size and weight.

    Good questions, and I wish I knew! Like I said, hopefully someone who knows physics / thermodynamics better than I will chime in with an authoritative answer. I'm just throwing out the theory I do know, which is limited.

    Some stove have jackets around them to intentionally create a temperature gradient between two plates (hot stove side or top, and cool outer jacket). This temperature gradient causes a pressure gradient, and thus air movement. These stoves are called convective, because they intentionally induce more air movement than the natural convection that happens around any other stove.

    I didn't mention anything about mass.
  23. Machria

    Machria Minister of Fire

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    Would you consider the Enerzones radiant or convective?

    Un-fortunitely, NOT young!! Although I still think I am!! I built TV's in the 70's! I jsut didn't know which direction you were referring to, screen size, cabinet size.... ;)
  24. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Enviro is not part of SBI, Enerzone is. Both of their stoves are convective.
  25. Waulie

    Waulie Minister of Fire

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    Hey Begreen: I see you often recommend convective stoves for cathedral ceilings. I'm just curious why. In my experience (having had both with cathedral ceilings) I've found that the radiant stove does a better job of keeping the heat down and warming the lower "stuff". It seems physics would agree. Radiant heat = line of sight. Hot air (convection heat) rises.

    Not trying to argue. Really just curious.
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