Help me figure out how to hook up Wood Gun AHS e140 with my current system

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Diesel Cal

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Hi all,

I'm new here. I see a lot of great information on the site and was excited to join, hoping for some good ideas for my heating situation.

My wife and I built a 4000 sq. ft. home (2000 basement, 2000 main) and we utilize slab heat downstairs, which is warmed by a 22 kw tankless boiler, that runs only at night and at a max a couple hours per day. I've got storage built in to that since all the tubing is buried on top of insulation in about 8 inches of sand and then 4 inches of concrete. I have a 4/12 vaulted ceiling throughout most of the upstairs level and my plan was to utilize hot water baseboard, but I haven't gotten around to installing them yet...so a few years ago I opted for a pellet stove to blow some hot air around upstairs, which works fine, mostly. (50,000 btu max. output)

The original goal was to put in some kind of high efficiency propane boiler to make up the difference upstairs and to make sure I wasn't dependent solely on electric power (I have a 30'x30' shop also that has slab heat that I warm with a separate 12 kw boiler too), which is fairly reasonable in price, but I wanted options. Years later now it seems that the cost of energy will continue to trend upward and I would like a central option - like a wood gasifier - that I could heat both buildings with. I already have the space in my insulated garage to add the boiler there with relative ease, I am now wondering how best to control the water temps for the two level house and garage slab, not to mention I would definitely want to heat my potable water, which also is now being warmed by off peak electric.

So...

Circulating pumps? Zones? Plate exchangers? I already have a vendor in mind for the buried line to the house: that will be Insul-Seal for sure. I have friends and family with outdoor boilers and all of them burn way, way too much wood! I should also mention that my entire home is constructed of Insulated Concrete Forms (even the three gable ends) and has a 71' southern exposure that helps a bit to warm us inside.

Do's and Don'ts will be noted and appreciated. I'm sure you'll have other questions for me as well. My insurance company wants me to be sure all is installed correctly and that I have a secondary system in place, which I do want to keep the off peak boilers waiting and ready, so that is an operating factor as well.

Thanks in advance! Cal
 
Hi all,

I'm new here. I see a lot of great information on the site and was excited to join, hoping for some good ideas for my heating situation.

My wife and I built a 4000 sq. ft. home (2000 basement, 2000 main) and we utilize slab heat downstairs, which is warmed by a 22 kw tankless boiler, that runs only at night and at a max a couple hours per day. I've got storage built in to that since all the tubing is buried on top of insulation in about 8 inches of sand and then 4 inches of concrete. I have a 4/12 vaulted ceiling throughout most of the upstairs level and my plan was to utilize hot water baseboard, but I haven't gotten around to installing them yet...so a few years ago I opted for a pellet stove to blow some hot air around upstairs, which works fine, mostly. (50,000 btu max. output)

The original goal was to put in some kind of high efficiency propane boiler to make up the difference upstairs and to make sure I wasn't dependent solely on electric power (I have a 30'x30' shop also that has slab heat that I warm with a separate 12 kw boiler too), which is fairly reasonable in price, but I wanted options. Years later now it seems that the cost of energy will continue to trend upward and I would like a central option - like a wood gasifier - that I could heat both buildings with. I already have the space in my insulated garage to add the boiler there with relative ease, I am now wondering how best to control the water temps for the two level house and garage slab, not to mention I would definitely want to heat my potable water, which also is now being warmed by off peak electric.

So...

Circulating pumps? Zones? Plate exchangers? I already have a vendor in mind for the buried line to the house: that will be Insul-Seal for sure. I have friends and family with outdoor boilers and all of them burn way, way too much wood! I should also mention that my entire home is constructed of Insulated Concrete Forms (even the three gable ends) and has a 71' southern exposure that helps a bit to warm us inside.

Do's and Don'ts will be noted and appreciated. I'm sure you'll have other questions for me as well. My insurance company wants me to be sure all is installed correctly and that I have a secondary system in place, which I do want to keep the off peak boilers waiting and ready, so that is an operating factor as well.

Thanks in advance! Cal


What you have now is a separate system for DHW and heating. If you want to supply both with the same input (your Wood Gun) you are going to have to design a main manifold and then mix your water temp for the lower temp zones. (multiple temp system) This is usually done with either mixing valves ar an injection loop.

Offhand, I think you'll find that you will need some liquid based storage for the heat from your wood fired equipment. Sand is not a real good medium for heat storage as it is more or an insulator than a "heat sink". Think of walking on the beach on a hot sunny day......the top of the sand burns your bare feet but an inch or two underneath it is cool.
 
Thanks for the input, Heaterman.

I should add that the 'storage' part of my equation was intended to help with the off-peak power setup, and it does work fine - in other words, I would not be looking, in any way, to use that storage to store energy for the rest of the house. The slab is several loops of tubing, but they are all one 'zone', and the electric boiler i have on that is for slab heating only, so it limits out at 125 degree output temperature. That being said, I'm sure I could use a higher input temp since I don't have tubing directly in the concrete (I was told by heating guys that it is best for the temperature to be a max of 140 so you don't break down the concrete over time). Conversely, my understanding about baseboard heat is that the water temp should be around 180 for effective heat transfer. Does that make sense? Anyway, I want to find the most efficient way to connect those two systems and DHW to the Wood Gun(when I can afford it) and have control of them independent of each other.
 
Will you put your water storage tanks in the basement? Or in the garage with the boiler? If you use, let's say 1,000 gallons of well insulated, pressurized water storage, you could go for a while between flat out (most efficient) burns. You could use an indirect hot water tank and heat your DHW from your storage all the time. If you use a coil in the boiler you would only get heat to your DHW when the boiler was running. Kinda depends how you want to do it and where you want to use space for storage, etc. Got anymore info of what you are thinking of doing? Storage? Location of everthing.
 
Welcome to the forum. Stick around, ask a lot of questions and you"ll find a lot of good advice and experience here.
I found pictures are truly worth a thousand words here. Post pics and ask to see others systems.

I did a primary/secondary loop system. All of my heat piping stayed the same. The only difference is the source of energy that heats it can vary.
In my case oil or the Wood Gun.

If the Wood Gun water is above 150* it will feed the system, if it is below 150* the oil burner will turn on.
That is the basics of it.

Here is a picture of the loop.

1002981b.jpg


The oil burner supply and return is on the left side (uninsulated copper) and the Wood Gun supply and return is on the right (black insulated pex tube).
 
Will you put your water storage tanks in the basement? Or in the garage with the boiler? If you use, let's say 1,000 gallons of well insulated, pressurized water storage, you could go for a while between flat out (most efficient) burns. You could use an indirect hot water tank and heat your DHW from your storage all the time. If you use a coil in the boiler you would only get heat to your DHW when the boiler was running. Kinda depends how you want to do it and where you want to use space for storage, etc. Got anymore info of what you are thinking of doing? Storage? Location of everthing.

I guess I wasn't thinking about mass water storage, but the part where you can get DHW all the time using that large tank with a coil would be pretty awesome. The efficiency of the 'flat out' burn would be nice, but based on the advertising for the Wood Gun, I was under the impression that it could shut down effectively between burns and the advantage of a shorter cycle between burns could be that it will always 'relight' itself without difficulty. I see you have a Wood Gun boiler...Are their claims substantiated, in your opinion?

In regard to storage for DHW, I do have my main water heater, which is a Marathon super insulated 105 gallon. It has a lifetime plastic tank and high density foam, so any thing I could store in it will last nicely. I also have a beautiful family, consisting of my wife and 7 kids. The kids are starting to wash themselves more often, which is good for them ( and us! staying away from the 'great unwashed' category), but the downside is the hot water consumption. I am using the off peak for that water heater as well, but by the end of the day it is starting to cool down, due to increased demand. I do have a tempering valve on it, so I keep the water maybe around 150 and mix down from there. Lately I've thought of increasing the temp and buying a better quality tempering valve, since the one of have is a bit cantankerous.

Keep the ideas (and pics or diagrams) coming! Cal
 
Will you put your water storage tanks in the basement? Or in the garage with the boiler? If you use, let's say 1,000 gallons of well insulated, pressurized water storage, you could go for a while between flat out (most efficient) burns. You could use an indirect hot water tank and heat your DHW from your storage all the time. If you use a coil in the boiler you would only get heat to your DHW when the boiler was running. Kinda depends how you want to do it and where you want to use space for storage, etc. Got anymore info of what you are thinking of doing? Storage? Location of everthing.

Forgot locations. I'd like the Wood Gun in the garage, and it's about 50' from the house, but then the utility/existing boiler room is another 25-30' at the far end of the house. I see the boiler has an optional in tank coil for DHW, but I suppose I'd have to run an extra two lines all the way to the garage to utilize that coil, and the fluctuation in temperature would be unbearable.
 
Welcome to the forum. Stick around, ask a lot of questions and you"ll find a lot of good advice and experience here.
I found pictures are truly worth a thousand words here. Post pics and ask to see others systems.

I did a primary/secondary loop system. All of my heat piping stayed the same. The only difference is the source of energy that heats it can vary.
In my case oil or the Wood Gun.

If the Wood Gun water is above 150* it will feed the system, if it is below 150* the oil burner will turn on.
That is the basics of it.

Here is a picture of the loop.

1002981b.jpg


The oil burner supply and return is on the left side (uninsulated copper) and the Wood Gun supply and return is on the right (black insulated pex tube).

Hey, nicely done! So you zone using circulating pumps. Looks good. Are they variable speed, or fixed?

One hangup I have is that I can't 'open' my small boiler system up and have the Wood Gun 'inline' since at the first temperature dip the boiler would then be trying to heat my indoor slab and all the tubing back out to the garage, and since it's only off-peak, I can only count on night time and weekend electric boiler activity. Even so, there wouldn't be a crisis if the temp dips down, since the basement will carry its temp fairly steady for a couple days since so much materiel is already heated. The downside is slow recovery on air temp, but it is never a big swing.

Are you well satisfied with your Wood Gun? I want to believe...
 
I was not speaking of a large tank with a coil. I was speaking of a large tank(s) that are pressurized. You can go with a large tank with a coil in it as well. There are different ways to do it. If you store a large amount of water in well insulated tank(s) you basically dump the energy from the boiler into the water and hold it there. Your heat demand is then meant by drawing the hot water out of your storage when needed. I have a pressurized system with a 400 gallon buffer tank. I use an indirect hot water tank to heat my domestic hot water. The water from the large storage tank, or boiler, goes into the indirect tank and heats the water in the inside tank. It is a tank insider of a tank. That way the water from your boiler/storage system does not mix with your domestic hot water(dhw). That would not be good. My indirect is one of these. http://www.triangletube.com/TriangleTubeProduct.aspx?CatID=6&PID=2 There are different sizes you can get. I have a 40. I believe it has 36 gallon capacity. I have a wife and four children. It supplies plenty of hot water. All of us can take a shower back to back and it does not run out. So your storage is for heating your house and your domestic hot water. That is one way to do it. And if you are going to burn wood. Why not heat your hot water with it as well and save that extra money. The price fuel just keeps going up.

As far as the Wood Gun being able to "re-light" the fire. It can go for several hours and cycle back on and get the fire going again. It does this by closing off the burn chamber very tightly and holding the heat in. Keeping the coals warm for as long as it can. Then, the fan turns on and blows a lot of air into the chamber, getting the embers or coals going again. It works great, as long as there is some heat demand from the house/DHW. If there is too little heat demand, and it goes to long, the fire will not be able to get going again. If you have a large amount of storage you can burn for several hours a day and heat all your storage up. Say, 800-1000 gallons. Then you can turn the boiler off and wait until the next day and do it again. This way your boiler is running flat out all the time. This is when it is most efficient. The length of time you can go between firings depends on many things. Heat demand, insulation quality of the structure(s) being heated, insulation quality of the storage tanks, etc.

You should do a heat loss calculation of everything to be heated. Do a search on that, fill in the fields, then run the calc. and let us know what you come up with. You may be able to get by with an E100 and storage. What is your insulation like? Poor. Fair. Good. Excellent?

Oh. Welcome. Keep asking questions.
 
How about staple up radiant instead of baseboard under you living floor, that will keep all of your water temp needs about the same and should help simplify things. Also the WG will throw some heat on it's own, it might be more of an advantage in the bsmt. I will get the heat of the WG "fooling" the t-stats and the slab can get cold because the t-stats are satisfied from the warm air off the WG. In your bsmt that would be ok for the upstairs.
Now if you don't have good (wood) acess to the bsmt., that's another thing. I don't have storage, but am considering it for these reasons as well as the "shoulder" seasons. (right now)!
 
How about staple up radiant instead of baseboard under you living floor, that will keep all of your water temp needs about the same and should help simplify things. Also the WG will throw some heat on it's own, it might be more of an advantage in the bsmt. I will get the heat of the WG "fooling" the t-stats and the slab can get cold because the t-stats are satisfied from the warm air off the WG. In your bsmt that would be ok for the upstairs.
Now if you don't have good (wood) acess to the bsmt., that's another thing. I don't have storage, but am considering it for these reasons as well as the "shoulder" seasons. (right now)!

Hey 711,

I thought about stapling tubing up like that , but I have too many other utilities already to make that very convenient. I have a friend that did it, and it worked great for him, but to have control and to get enough heat from that design he had to put a thin layer of r-foil throughout the basement. I don't want to put up all that foil since I want to keep my ceiling accessible in case i switch things up later, or have a leak between levels or something. As for the WG being in the house: Almost my entire house is living space. I didn't plan on a wood burner early on, so I really don't have the room, even though the house is large. It is six bedroom, with basically space for two kitchens, dining rooms and living rooms.

I think I may still run my little pellet stove on the "shoulder seasons" although if I get DHW hooked up to the WG, the pellets will be but a bygone memory.

Thanks for the input!
I see you run the 7.3 diesels! I have a '97 crew cab and a '98 E350 fifteen passenger with almost 500,000 between the two. I run a 2003 VW Golf TDI for my commuter car, (also with 200+) and I love it! Cal
 
Hey, nicely done! So you zone using circulating pumps. Looks good. Are they variable speed, or fixed?

One hangup I have is that I can't 'open' my small boiler system up and have the Wood Gun 'inline' since at the first temperature dip the boiler would then be trying to heat my indoor slab and all the tubing back out to the garage, and since it's only off-peak, I can only count on night time and weekend electric boiler activity. Even so, there wouldn't be a crisis if the temp dips down, since the basement will carry its temp fairly steady for a couple days since so much materiel is already heated. The downside is slow recovery on air temp, but it is never a big swing.

Are you well satisfied with your Wood Gun? I want to believe...

I'm not understanding why you cant "open" your boiler system. A Primary loop can have several boilers feed it. Then the zones get fed from the primary loop. With proper wiring, aqua stats and t-stats you can pretty much control which heat source will heat the loop and when it heats it.

As far as the Wood Gun I like it.
I have nothing else to compare it to.
It is very basic. Stick wood in, light fire heat house repeat as needed.
There are other units that have more electronic controls and sensors.

It does "re-light" itself after being shut down for several hours. It's quite amazing.
I even had it re-ignite after 8 hours, only a couple times though. I have no idea how that happened because usually after 5 hours the unit cooled down to much to re-light.

I highly suggest you install a low temp shut-off control. You can have AHS install it before you buy it or you can buy the parts and do it yourself.
It is a dual temp aqua stat and a regular single pole light switch. What happens is if the unit does not re-light itself and cools down below a temp that you set on the aqua stat then the unit will shut off. With out it, the fan will run indefinitely only cooling the unit even more and wasting electric.

I think I got most of the newbie learning issues out of the way this season.

One little trick I learned is I use a small lpg torch to light the fire. You know the kind of torch tip you screw on to one of those mini tanks.
When the wood would not re-light because it sat to long I used to put kindling in then a bunch of newspaper and light that with the torch.
What I found is the all the little charcoal pieces and even the big splits that have charcoal on the edges will re-light with the torch (and the fan on)in about 30 seconds and be blazing hot in a minute. No need for kindle and paper.

Another thing I learned is not to stuff it completely full of splits, unless you know that the house will be calling for heat for a long period of time.
I kinda know how many splits to put in for a given period of time.

This was a really challenging season for me.
It was my first time heating my house , my wood was not "seasoned" it was cut and split only a few months before I was burning it and it was a very mild season so the unit would shut down and sit to long for it to re-ignite, so I had to go out and re-light it myself.

All in all I am very happy with it. I had a 100 gallons of oil delivered right after the WG was installed(Nov) and had another 100 gallons delivered in mid Feb. I am still heating my potable water with oil. But not for long I just have to hook up the indirect hot water storage tank.
In years past I would have used at least 1200 gallons of oil to heat the house and domestic water.

Also I am SOOO glad I put it the garage. It does get messy with the firewood, dirt, bugs and the fly ash. Plus its real easy to bring the firewood into the garage with a wheelbarrow. I built a rack next to unit that holds 200 splits. It was about 10-12 days worth.
1008713t.jpg



Oh yeah GET the smoke hood. Thats another reason my garage is full of soot (and another reason I'm glad its in the garage), when I reload smoke would billow out, I never used that dumb smoke flap, it gets in the way of loading.

Make sure you get a return temp mixing valve I got the Danfoss esbe series vtc510. It keeps the return water from entering the unit below 140*
 
I've been able to retstart a fire after a few hours but never 8. You must have had some really hot coals sitting in there that caught again when the draft started back up. A fellow member suggested getting the 4 hour cycle timer when I purchased my WG and I'm glad I did and would suggest the same for anybody going w/o heat storage. I set mine to turn on every 60 minutes to assure I still have hot coals and how water in the morning on those nights when temps are fairly warm(35-45). I wish I would have purchased the low temp shut off...future improvement I guess.
 
I emailed AHS earlier this winter & didn't get a reply - so I'm going to ask here. Can one of you WG fellows throw a ballpark cost figure out for say an E100, with coil & oil burner kit?
 
I emailed AHS earlier this winter & didn't get a reply - so I'm going to ask here. Can one of you WG fellows throw a ballpark cost figure out for say an E100, with coil & oil burner kit?

I do not know what they run with the oil unit. I had heard that the oil units on them were not very efficient, but I do not know that for sure. I already had a nice oil boiler that I was happy with. So I decided to keep the units seperate. Nice if you have a problem with one, the other is there. An E100 with S.S. and the ASME stamp must be up around $9500-$10,000. That is without the low temp shut down option and the cycle timer. The S.S. adds $1000 more, and the ASME stamp runs another $500. So a base E100 with carbon steel would be around $8000.
 
I paid
I emailed AHS earlier this winter & didn't get a reply - so I'm going to ask here. Can one of you WG fellows throw a ballpark cost figure out for say an E100, with coil & oil burner kit?
I paid $8,950. That Included a S.S. firebox, hot water coil and shipping from PA to Long Island.
After I received it I asked what the oil set up would be. They said around $2,000.
Honestly I wasted $350 on the hot water coil, since I am setting up an indirect hot water tank like a zone off my primary/secondary loop.
I should have spent the money on the smoke hood.
I bought the parts here for the low water temp shut off and installed it myself. It is simple. It is a dual temp aqua stat and a single pole light switch. The wiring diagram is in the manual. I think it might have worked out to be a little cheaper than if they did it.
 
I've been able to retstart a fire after a few hours but never 8. You must have had some really hot coals sitting in there that caught again when the draft started back up. A fellow member suggested getting the 4 hour cycle timer when I purchased my WG and I'm glad I did and would suggest the same for anybody going w/o heat storage. I set mine to turn on every 60 minutes to assure I still have hot coals and how water in the morning on those nights when temps are fairly warm(35-45). I wish I would have purchased the low temp shut off...future improvement I guess.

It only re-lit twice after 8 hours I was blown away. Really don't know why or how but it was pretty cool. Or should I say pretty hot:).

I want to do the cycle timer but was a little concerned. Heres my thinking, correct me if I am wrong.
The unit shuts down when the my aqua stat hits 190*, sometimes it will swing a little higher up to 200* just because of residual heat. Now 1 hour later, the water temp may be still around 190* if the unit turned again wouldn't the water get hotter and possibly blow the pressure valve off?
I guess it doesn't since they sell it and you have it, but thats just the way I am thinking, so please tell me your experience with it. Thanks
 
I paid
I paid $8,950. That Included a S.S. firebox, hot water coil and shipping from PA to Long Island.
After I received it I asked what the oil set up would be. They said around $2,000.
Honestly I wasted $350 on the hot water coil, since I am setting up an indirect hot water tank like a zone off my primary/secondary loop.
I should have spent the money on the smoke hood.
I bought the parts here for the low water temp shut off and installed it myself. It is simple. It is a dual temp aqua stat and a single pole light switch. The wiring diagram is in the manual. I think it might have worked out to be a little cheaper than if they did it.

Thanks - that about answers all the questions I had on the WG. Kinda wonder why my inquiry to them went unanswered - but no big deal. My biggest issue I'm still trying to resolve is what to go with for backup heat. I like the thoughts of everything in one unit, like I have now, but lately the idea of doing away with oil all together & going electric for backup is winning. With a gasser & storage, back up should see very little use. I still haven't rattled my insurance agents cage.

Sorry for the slight derail...
 
Maple1 for backup I was going to put in a new fossil boiler from Weil-McClain or one of those, but when I saw a possible bill of $2500 just for the unit I backed off and started looking on the classifides. Found a Liberty 3 section boiler only 7 years old for $350 and 50 miles over in Vermont. Long story short, I put a few new parts on it, cleaned the firebox, reset the points, changed the nozzle and when tested, it fired right up, no leaks and works great. Since then I haven't burned a gallon of fossil in it, but it's there.
 
It only re-lit twice after 8 hours I was blown away. Really don't know why or how but it was pretty cool. Or should I say pretty hot:).

I want to do the cycle timer but was a little concerned. Heres my thinking, correct me if I am wrong.
The unit shuts down when the my aqua stat hits 190*, sometimes it will swing a little higher up to 200* just because of residual heat. Now 1 hour later, the water temp may be still around 190* if the unit turned again wouldn't the water get hotter and possibly blow the pressure valve off?
I guess it doesn't since they sell it and you have it, but thats just the way I am thinking, so please tell me your experience with it. Thanks

You are correct, the timer will turn on the unit for apprx. 3 minute burn regardless of the current water temp. I never had a problem with blowing the pressure valve though.
 
Thanks - that about answers all the questions I had on the WG. Kinda wonder why my inquiry to them went unanswered - but no big deal. My biggest issue I'm still trying to resolve is what to go with for backup heat. I like the thoughts of everything in one unit, like I have now, but lately the idea of doing away with oil all together & going electric for backup is winning. With a gasser & storage, back up should see very little use. I still haven't rattled my insurance agents cage.

Sorry for the slight derail...

I have found that if you want an answer from AHS you are better off just calling them. They are fairly prompt in returning calls but I guess they don't check emails often.
 
Wood gun installation help!

Okay my boiler guy was here today and got my new e140 all plumbed in, the boiler should be ready to fire, except we couldn't figure out where the thermostat (tt) from the house wires in.
I was under the impression the thermostat was wired right into the control panel. (I have auto oil, low temp shut down, and cycle timer). We could not find anywhere that this was indicated in the wiring diagram.
Is there an external relay that needs to be installed on the outside of the unit? We tried calling AHS but I guess the tech guy isn't in the office. :(
I just want to get my new boiler fired up.
Craig
 
Hey Craig. Did you get that figured out? Sorry I can't help you. I paid two knowledgeable HVAC guys to hook mine up and had them follow NoFossil's instructions. Hopefully someone can chime in here for ya. If you don't already have it done.
 
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I assume you have a circulator installed. Where did you connect the power leads coming from it?
 
Wood gun installation help!

Okay my boiler guy was here today and got my new e140 all plumbed in, the boiler should be ready to fire, except we couldn't figure out where the thermostat (tt) from the house wires in.
I was under the impression the thermostat was wired right into the control panel. (I have auto oil, low temp shut down, and cycle timer). We could not find anywhere that this was indicated in the wiring diagram.
Is there an external relay that needs to be installed on the outside of the unit? We tried calling AHS but I guess the tech guy isn't in the office. :(
I just want to get my new boiler fired up.
Craig

Craig,

A typical fossil fuel boiler will use TT to only fire when there is a call for heat.

The WG doesn't wire in like a typical boiler. Basically you give the WG 110 power and it "runs". The aquastats will control the boiler and keep it "hot". It's up to you and the rest of the system to take care of the rest. I installed an ice-cube relay to turn on my circulator pump when the end switch on my zone valve closes after the thermostat opens the valve.

You can see the relay here:

IMAG0425.jpg

ac
 
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