Help with choosing an insert or fireplace?

[Aybolit]

Well - as you can see, we had started complete remodel in our condo in Keystone, CO at 9300 feet above the sea level with a reasonably harsh winter and in excess of a 100 inches of snow a year. It's electrical heat there and we only using condo on the weekends (but potentially more often in the future) - the rest of the week it's just being heated to 60 degrees or so. The HOA supply wood and I don't have any control over what they buy nor do we have any storage there to keep it - so most of the time it would be a small stash of wood just sitting outside on the porch.
So, the question is - would I even be able to operate those newer EPA approved inserts or fireplaces with suboptimal wood? Would I get any benefits from installing new fireplace vs insert - being that fireplace would easily be few thousands dollars more upfront?
Our condo is 2 story 1800 sq feet with cathedral ceilings and one of the bedrooms located on the second floor, while fireplace sitting in the main floor living room with the chimney located inside the building right next to the exterior wall. External opening of the fireplace is W35", D23", H20", so that eliminate most (if not all) midsize inserts and leave me with PE Summit or similar? I would rather have larger size unit there and am looking for suggestions as far as whether there is midsize unit out there that would fit in the current box or should I just get a new fireplace altogether and potentially heat with it 24/7?

 

[bholler]

I personally dont think than an insert should go in that box at all so if it were me or a customer of mine i would be looking to install a new zc unit

 

[john11756]

if it was my weekend getaway id go with a free standing direct vent pellet stove .no room for wood storage not sure of supply. stock up on a couple bags of pellets heck store them in a garbage can on the porch. wood is a job in itself, my girlfriend has a very hard time getting the wood stove fired up, pellets are much easier.

 

[Aybolit]

I will never give up that joy - minus 20 outside and lovely open fire in your living room.
BTW - would most of those newer firelaces allow you to burn wood with the door open?

 

[Grisu]

It is a point of contention here whether it is possible to put an insert into a zero clearance fireplace. ZC fireplaces are not approved for that kind of application. However, some insert manufacturers allow their units to be installed in a ZC fireplace. Since there is no testing standard for inserts in a ZC fireplace you essentially void the UL listing of the fireplace. However, quite a few members here have done it without ill effects. Since the outside of an insert won't get as hot as having a fire burning right in the fireplace, I don't see how putting an insert in there can be more dangerous. Nevertheless, should you want to go that route make sure the base of the fireplace is able to hold 500 additional pounds of weight and your HOA and their/your insurance will be ok with that kind of install.

There are two other, proper ways of installing a woodheating unit using the fireplace/space:

1. Replacing your unit with an EPA-approved ZC fireplace. There are plenty of modern, efficient units around that you could install instead of of your inefficient fireplace. It won't necessarily come cheap as most likely you will also need to replace the chimney. However, if installed according to manufacturer's specs you should have no problem to get it approved by the HOA/insurance. Some models:
Pacific Energy FP30
KozyHeat Z42
Quadrafire 7100
Napoleon NZ3000
Various RSF fireplaces: http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/rsf-woodburning-fireplaces
FireplaceXtraordinaire Elite 36
Valcourt FP9 or 10

2. Putting a rear-vented stove in front of the fireplace and duct it through the existing flue. It would look similar to this:
http://s383.photobucket.com/user/jeffesonm/media/IMG_20131016_213003_999_zps4f141ee5.jpg.html
Will be cheaper than replacing the fireplace and give you the most heat and a cooking surface during a power outage. Drawback is you will lose some space in your room. Potential stoves are:
Jotul F600 or F55, Woodstock Progress Hybrid, Hearthstone Manchester or Mansfield, Quadrafire Isle Royale or maybe the Explorer 2.

The size of the stove/fireplace will depend on how much you want to rely on woodheat (supplement or exclusively) and the insulation of your condo. Plus, an end unit will require more heat than one that has two sides covered by other condos. What is your current heating source and do you have an idea how much fuel you used during a weekend up there?

Regarding the wood: Any EPA-approved stove/insert/fireplace will need dry, seasoned wood to run properly and safely. You won't be happy burning wet wood in any of those. I would get a moisture meter to check the wood the HOA is supplying. If it is wet I would lobby for purchasing seasoned wood. It will mean less smoke and wood smell for the whole association plus less risk of a chimney fire. You will need quite a bit of wood during a weekend. 5 loads in a 3 cu ft stove are 15 cu ft. Another option is to burn either exclusively or as supplement manufactured wood logs like Eco-bricks or Biobricks. Those could also easily be stored in a garage, basement, or closet.

Most stoves/fireplaces can be burned with the door open but you will lose on efficiency. Some units offer an optional screen. However, most members here who got one used it a few times and since then it is gathering dust.

 

[Aybolit]

It does look like I would be better off with the new fireplace. Why new chimney so? Can the liner be used like with inserts? As U can see we do share a chimney with the 2 units from downstairs and getting HOA approval for the chimney rebuild would be almost impossible.
Should I be looking for one of those Washington state certified fireplaces? Or at least EPA stage 2 approved ones?
Rear vented stove in front of the fireplace was build by my neighbour - I think that set up is horrible from aestetic stand point - but its a matter of taste I suppose.

 

[Grisu]

You won't need to replace the whole chase but only the flue coming out of your current unit. Fireplace manufacturer's are usually very specific about the kind of chimney pipe that can be used with their units. I doubt the one you have would be permissible. It looks like it has a label; you can check that one and/or get an installer/chimney sweep in to go over your options. One caveat: Not sure if having 3 flues in one chase may not be a problem due to potential overheating that small space. Again, getting help from a certified installer would be the proper way to go. Also, how tall is your chase? Given your elevation you probably will need to exceed the minimum height.

Check that the emissions are less than 7.5 g/hr (4.1 g/hr for catalytic models). Washington state approved fireplaces burn cleaner and slightly more efficient but unless your local building code requires it, it is not a necessity. Stay away from EPA-exempt fireplaces.

Since you have a downstairs neighbor who will presumably be heating, too, I would look for a fireplace with a firebox of 2.5 to 3 cu ft size. That should be enough to heat your condo.

 

[begreen]

That's a tight fit. It looks like the main constraints with replacing this unit will be the chimney and the physically available space. Are there any identifying labels on the chimney pipe?

 

[Aybolit]

There is another label on that same pipe - says 18-10

 

[begreen]

Looks like air cooled 10" pipe.

 

[Aybolit]

So can I just put 6"-7" liner inside 10" pipe and connect it to Z42 for example?

 

[begreen]

I've never heard of that being done, but it's a reasonable question to ask Kozy tech support. 800-253-4904. Though I wonder how you would attach the existing chimney to the fireplace.

 

[Grisu]

So can I just put 6"-7" liner inside 10" pipe and connect it to Z42 for example?

You will need to ask the dealer or manufacturer whether that install would be permissible but I highly doubt it. How would you also support the 10" pipe when it is no longer connected to the fireplace?