Help with my first wood burning fireplace

[kbcarolina]

Hi. Just joined, but I've been reading on this forum in ALL of my spare time as I've been doing my research.... GREAT stuff.

I have had a conventional masonry fireplace that I've used for years and, generally, love. I recently bought a home in Western NC not so high in the mountains that it gets really cold, but remote enough that I'm going to be more or less screwed if there is a power failure because it will likely be out for several days. The home has currently a ventless gas firebox 42" that will kick out some heat but I find that it smells (not leaking, just a "combustion smell"). Propane has come down recently, but it's still damn pricey and hard to swallow when there is an abundance of wood as far as the eye can see... and it only heats the immediate vicinity to the FP. Plus, there is the fact that I generally hate gas FPs because I've grown up with the conventional masonry set up and like the ambiance of real fire.

I've decided a wood burning insert is the way to go because a) I like and am comfortable with real fire; and b) it's far more practical than my propane sucking, soul-less, gas FP for heating and winter storm outages. The current gas FP is installed in a firebox with an empty chase so I can do an insert and chimney without a massive renovation (there will be some, but it's manageable) and I prefer this look to a hearth stove.

I have 3BR on the main level with an over head loft over the great room/kitchen that has a room off each side. 23' ceilings over the greatroom/loft. There are 2 ceiling fans in the great room and one in the loft that I can use to move the rising warm air around. Total square footage off the top of my head is probably 2200+. There is a basement that the previous owner did some finishing on, but it more or less needs to be ripped out and redone, so I'm not concerned about heating the basement too, but I'd like the option to "someday" running something down there from the existing stove (i.e. an additional duct or heat dump), but I could potentially put a different stove down there too. I've read mixed reviews on the various "heat dump" features. I'd be interested in someone's actual experience heating a basement.

Okay, with all of that preamble, here are my issue and considerations and please understand I'm as GREEN as that tree you cut down last week and here to learn. Please speak slowly and use small words! Actually, seriously, I have been a "big city" girl most of my life and have recently moved to a very small town about 30 minutes from a not much bigger town and we're really having a lot of fun shifting our lifestyle from one where everything we needed was a phone call or a delivery service away to one far more remote that really requires us to be self-reliant and have some skills. The boyfriend has spent the better part of this winter getting some hatchets and axes and he's like a little kid about what we can do to get wood and we have plenty and have some awesome outside bonfires, but we want to bring the whole party inside to the comfort of our living room sofa, so here are my parameters:

1. I live in Western NC. I do have access to hardwoods, but there is MUCH more free pine as far as the eye can see. I've read and read and read all that I can about creosote and it seems to me that if I burn hot, ensure it's well seasoned, and clean/inspect annually, I shouldn't have issues with pine. In general, I should be able to mix the pine with other wood so that I can maximize BTUs on a cold day, but I had two 50'+ pine taken down last year that is too green now to burn, but and I would hate to pay to haul it off if I could use it next winter so please let me know your thoughts on pine in a wood burning insert. I get the sense it's not as bad as with a masonry fireplace simply because it burns hotter, but I'm a newbie so I don't know.
2. I am by no means done pouring through the comments and reviews here, but I have still on my list of choices the Quad 7100 and the RSF Opel3. I've ruled out the Elite 44 because it's a catalytic system and because, from what I can gather, it's got some issues when the blower isn't on and one of my real reasons for getting a wood burning insert is that I need to not freeze to death if the power is out. Plus, I'm all city-fied and this just seems like more maintenance.
3. We have very long Spring and Indian Summer here where a screen option would be great -- we can enjoy the snap, crackle, pop of the fire on more mild evenings when we don't actually need it for heat so I want some versatility in what I purchase that I can use from about late September through about late April. 24h heating would be a smaller fraction of that window but it would be a minimum of 3 months. We travel some, so we'd burn 3-4 days only a lot of the time.
4. Ideally, I'd get a model that I can mount at "eye level" with the bottom at about 3' or so. We don't have television and LOVE to sit around and watch the fire anyway so it seems that putting it a higher level would be both pleasing and practical. We're not getting any younger so bending down to refuel has less appeal that doing it standing up (and yes, I'm working on surround designs that allow us to stock the wood at this level too with cabinets underneath). Can this be done with an wood burning insert? I see a million photos of gas FPs installed this way, but I wasn't sure if a 500lb behemoth could be mounted in this way. If someone has done this, a picture would be great!

So, are the two that are in the hunt reasonable choices based on my parameters? What else should I be considering that fits my other needs: burns pine, good for mild weather via a screen, little/low maintenance, mounted 36" or so above floor?

Thanks for reading and your comments are appreciated! In the meantime, I've got a few more models to research... thanks to those that went before me already that got me this far!

-K

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

Be sure that a wood burning insert can go into the place where the current gas burning appliance is installed now . . . I should be upfront and say inserts and zero clearance units are not really my thing though . . . other folks are a lot more qualified to speak on them and what works and doesn't work.

1) Pine is fine. I burn some every year . . . mostly in the Fall and Spring when I need a quick, hot fire to take the chill out of the air and don't need a long burning fire. I also use some pine for kindling. That said, there are folks who have/will burn pine all winter long . . . depending on the species some burns longer than others. Don't believe the whole "pine causes creosote" hype.

2) No opinions on the inserts . . . as mentioned . . . inserts aren't really my "thing." I prefer free standing woodstoves and tend to know more about them.

3) Screen for the stove . . . get one if you want one . . . but most folks who have bought a screen for stoves/inserts say they try them out a few times and then revert back to burning without the screen since using the screen in effect turns the woodstove/insert into a fireplace which is less efficient for heating the place . . . that and many say with the large "glass" in most inserts and stoves they can see and hear (albeit a little more muted) the fire just fine.

4) Raising the insert . . . not sure if I've seen any stoves or inserts raised up that high . . . but I suspect you could do so . . . as long as any R values were met and the base was beefy enough.

 

[jeff_t]

Inserts are 'inserted' into an existing fireplace. Zero clearance fireplace is not an insert. Helps to get the terminology correct at the beginning so people aren't confused.

The OP is looking at high efficiency zero clearance fireplaces, which is good. They met EPA standards, and are capable of heating a home. I don't think they would do so well without electricity, though. If emergency heat is important, a freestanding stove is much better. Or a generator.

Sounds like the gas fireplace will be removed, the opening framed to the required dimensions, and the fireplace and correct chimney installed? Many of these units require a specific chimney system.

Those fireplaces are expensive. Do you have a budget?

 

[kbcarolina]

Thanks so far...

Here's more to address some of the comments and points raised:

1. I will have to demo the current set up. I have plenty of room and the builder put in a framed out chase/accent wall so the chimney installation should be easy -- it's wide and hollow (something like 25"d x 65" w) and goes straight up to the roof so I won't have to put any bends in my chimney. I will have to take out the existing hearth and firebox and do some construction around that and don't plan to find something that "slips right in" to the existing space. So yes, to jeff_t, I do plan to have it installed by a professional with the right chimney, etc. I'm still shopping my local dealers and haven't picked one at this point.

2. I don't have any formal quotes yet, but I've seen ranges in the $3500-$4500 range for these kinds of FPs so I'm prepared for that. Plus, I have to have demo, installation, and some new stonework done for the hearth and surround. I've not begun pricing this yet, but I know it won't get done for free. I'm not looking for a project just throw money needlessly, but I expect that to have what I want in terms of features with it looking nice in the end, I'll have to invest some cash. The bigger factor for me is the long term enjoyment and heating capability. I think some of my cost will be recouped in propane bills and I think this will definitely add value to the home. So, yes, budget is a factor because the home doesn't have a money tree in the backyard, but I don't want that to be the biggest factor in my decision. I could literally spend every night with a glass of wine in front of the fire -- I don't have TV -- so the money I would spend on movies and cable can go right in to this project! :D A year or two from now, I won't regret the money spent if I'm enjoying my lovely awesome fires and my perpetually frozen feet are toasty warm all winter. If I do this big project and the fireplace isn't right, I will have lots of regrets. I'd rather invest up front than do the project twice. The payback is there for me in multiple ways.

3. Terminology. Some of the manufacturer/dealer sites don't help with this. jeff_t is correct that an "insert" per se isn't what I want, but that seems to be the "descriptor" in the common vernacular to distinguish the high efficiency zero clearance FPs from the free standing stoves. Good to know that my understanding and perhaps jake's above is potentially confusing. So, to be precise: I'm shopping for a zero clearance high efficiency fireplace that would be used for heat abpit 2200 sqft in the winter months.

4. I do have a generator too for power outages so I could theoretically connect the blower to that and it would probably not be a huge draw on the available back up power. My concern is that the house is pretty remote and it could be some days in the event of a major storm -- hurricanes that hit land via the gulf and snow are reasons to be concerned about significant power outages in these parts. I just want to be sure I'm warm even if I run out of fuel for my generator. Pacific Energy seems to claim they have a design that works well even if the blower isn't powered. I don't particularly like the look of their fireplaces as much as some of the other ones but maybe there are other models that work as well too? I'm still digging on this but if someone has some experience on this, please share.

 

[Simonkenton]

Hello, neighbor! I am in the NC mountains, five miles west of Marshall.
I completely agree with your idea of not having a unit that needs a fan. A fan is more complicated, and simple is better than complicated. Also, some fans are noisy.
Also, as you pointed out, when you need wood heat the most, during a power outage, you are going to run a generator? You want to listen to that noise 24 hours a day?


I had a wood burning fireplace in a trailer I once owned in Georgia. It had glass doors and a fan, the little rascal put out some pretty decent heat.
However I am now a big fan of the free standing wood stove. Don't use a fan, they look great, and with the big glass doors you get a great view of the fire.

 

[begreen]

I was going to suggest the Pacific Energy FP30. Another thought would be to make an alcove out of the space and install an attractive freestanding wood stove. That would definitely provide more heat, with or without a blower and still afford a nice fireview and would probably cost less.

 

[Simonkenton]

Now, look at this beauty. The Jotul Oslo.
You can join the Western North Carolina Oslo club, I will be getting my Oslo this summer from that wood stove store in Asheville.

 

[GENECOP]

I did not read the entire thread but if I am correct you are looking to have a wood burning insert installed , We have done a few for customers over the years...They are for the most part Zero Clearance, you create the proper RO and basically slide it in.....The interior should have a fake Brick package, have the install done by a proffessional, the ducting will cost almost as much as the unit...The process for us breaks down into a few parts,,,part one framing, this includes the opening, and any and all provisions for the ducting, cutting through roof, chases, etc...Next the FP installer will do his thing, mostly about hooking up the pipe....Lastly and most important for the full effect is the front face, elevation, stone, mantle, etc.....This part will really make or break the job, our goals are always to create a FP that looks traditional. If done well, at a quick glance the average person will think they are looking at a real masonary FP...Technically they will put out heat, but not as much as traditional FP because you do not have a good thermal mass....traditional F places are not good in general, but the insert is a step down for sure....Fans that are available as options will definately improve the heat output significantly....remotes that are wireless are nice to adjust the fan speed....some of the larger units can really deliver the BTUs with the fan option...Lastly, if you are worried about power outages and heating specifically, you can just accept the natural radiant heat that the FP will put out without the fan, or you can back up the power to the fan with a deep cycle battery and a "STOVE DEFENDER" type setup, this will at least allow you to run the fan for a few days on and off until the power goes back on....Generators, Solar panels, all options, but the simple Stove Defender might be enough to ease your mind....

 

[bholler]

I did not read the entire thread but if I am correct you are looking to have a wood burning insert installed , We have done a few for customers over the years...They are for the most part Zero Clearance, you create the proper RO and basically slide it in.

Ok the terminology is wrong here inserts are not zero clearance units inserts are meant to go int a working firebox that is built to code and you could have a fire in. Some inserts can go into some zero clearance units as well and any insert needs a liner hooked to it. A zero clearance unit is what you are referring to and there is a wide rage of them available from basic builders boxes that are very inefficient to ones that are zero clearance woodstoves and are very good heaters and allot in between.

 

[GENECOP]

This is what I thought he was referring to

 

[bholler]

Yes that is a zero clearance fireplace not an insert they are very different things and are not interchangeable at all. I have seen an insert installed as if it was a zc unit and i have no idea how they did not burn their house down. Most people including you i am sure can tell the difference but confusing the issue by mixing up the names doesn't help any.

 

[Dix]

Welcome to the forums, KB !!

Get your terminology settled, then get back to us.

A floor plan, even rough drawn will help a lot !!

Always nice to see another Sistah here

 

[kbcarolina]

Welcome to the forums, KB !!

Get your terminology settled, then get back to us.

A floor plan, even rough drawn will help a lot !!

Always nice to see another Sistah here

I do believe my terminology is right.... In my last post, I wrote, "So, to be precise: I'm shopping for a zero clearance high efficiency fireplace that would be used for heat about 2200 sqft in the winter months." Perhaps I misstated in my first post back before I got it, but I've caught up now thanks to some of YOU, I appreciate it. I can't be responsible for people not reading all the way through and realizing I'm with ya now on terms.

At any rate, I left town today for business but will work on some pictures/sketches of what space I have to work in. Space, really, is not the issue. I have TONS. The current set up is something like 65" wide and 25" deep. The spot I want to put something has a cathedral ceiling so I have some 20+ feet of vertical space. My imagination is more or less the only limit. Budget to a degree too, but I wrote about that last time.

I haven't ruled out the alcove/freestanding idea entirely, but, generally, it doesn't appeal as much to me as a traditional looking FP. But, maybe that's just because I've had the masonry types for so long and used the hell out of them. I'll poke around the interwebs while traveling. Maybe I've just too many "rustic" type set ups and I'm not crazy about the log cabin-y type feel. That's not the style of the home. It's more "traditional" I guess. Not modern. Comfortable, but not lodge-y or rustic.

And to Simon, yes I called that FP store in Asheville today and had a lovely conversation with them about lots of things. Fortunately, I've read so much on this site that we actually had a productive chat! If I end up using them, I'll post those details for other Western NC-ers. If don't use them, I'll post the details of who I do chose and why, etc.

Any particular thoughts or feedback on the Quad 7100 or Opel3? Others I should throw in the hunt?

Thanks everyone. I'm having so much FUN with this. I HATE home renovation/decorating projects but, this project has really got my interest. Who would have thought?!

-K

 

[bholler]

I do believe my terminology is right.... In my last post, I wrote, "So, to be precise: I'm shopping for a zero clearance high efficiency fireplace that would be used for heat about 2200 sqft in the winter months." Perhaps I misstated in my first post back before I got it, but I've caught up now thanks to some of YOU,

i saw that and was not referring to you I was referring to some one else

 

[begreen]

A few others to look at would be the Kozy42, BIS Tradition, and FPX 44 Elite