Here’s what I’ve got... looking for a new small stove

[MaintenanceMan]

I do more lurking on here than posting, but I have posted a few questions on here in the past about an eventual addition I would be adding on to my house with a wood stove. Well, that time has come. I finally got the addition framed up and finished outside. I know how well everyone likes pics so in the interest of answering some questions and gathering some opinions I'll post some pictures of my project and plans.

I had a carport on the side of our house that was in bad shape. The flat roof leaked pretty bad before we bought it and the structure wasn't in very good shape.

The slab was in good shape so the plan was to tear down the carport and frame in a new family room. It measures 12' x 20' I got a permit from the town and got to work.

In less than a month I framed up, roofed and sided, our new family room.
The plan is to remove the larger window on the left and create a doorway to the rest of the house.
I will remove the window on the right to make an opening over the kitchen sink.

Here is where I am at now. Finished outside and a blank pallet inside.

 

[MaintenanceMan]

My plans were to add a small stove in the corner. At this point I was thinking of putting in an Englander 17vl. Class A and double wall straight out the roof for the chimney. My intention is to add some supplemental heat here. Not a 24/7 whole house objective. I'm not very concerned about short burn times.

I installed a PTAC in the back of the room and have what I hope is just enough room in the corner for a safe install for a small stove.
I held the sleeve for the PTAC as tight as I could out of the way. That leaves right at 47" from the corner of the room to the edge of the PTAC.
Basically I will be able to lay up a stone veneer or brick wall (with a 1" air gap) in the corner just under 4' each way on each wall.
The hearth will be ceramic tile over a concrete slab.
This is where I'd most like to install the stove, in this corner, but the close proximity to the PTAC concernes me a bit.

I guess I am posting this to gather opinions about putting a stove in this small of a room. It is 240 sq ft, and even though it will be open to the rest of the house I am still questioning myself about it. The house will end up being 1350 sq ft after this is done.

I'm also wondering if it will just be too close to the PTAC. Measuring out the clearances for the 17vl I should be able to exceed clearances in every direction.

I do have a plan B and C as far as the wood stove goes, but this is really where I want it for several reasons. Comments and opinions are appreciated.

 

[begreen]

That's a huge change. It really improves the look of the house.

If you are trying to improve house heating with the stove it can be done. I would make the opening into the new space as large as possible. And I would consider locating the stove on the far wall, between the two windows in order to achieve maximum flue height and still have it look good outside. Otherwise you'll need a big silver rocket sticking out of the roof.

 

[MaintenanceMan]

Thanks for the reply. Affecting the rest of the house isn't really the primary objective. Here we are just trying to keep the living space toasty during the day as opposed to keeping the furnace thermostat set to a bare minimum. It will supplement the rest of the house somewhat obviously, but full coverage isn't necessarily the goal. Just focused on the living are and the kitchen somewhat.

Here is a rudimentary floor plan.

The room all the way to the right is the addition. It's right next to the Kitchen and dinning room.

The top right icon, plan A, is where I want to put the stove.

The bottom right icon is plan B. I'd like to avoid this in order to keep the chimney away from the front of the house. It would be better if Plan A is too close to the PTAC I suppose, but I am liking this spot less and less.

The icon to the left in the middle of the house would be plan C. Obviously it is more central but would interfere with our current plans for a new dinning room. To me it beats having no stove at all, but the ambiance would be removed from the living area. It would also be a little more of a traffic flow obstacle. I also loose the common sense approach to having the stove in the addition over the concrete slab. Plan C would be over a wood subfloor and require a suitable hearth. Ultimately if we decided that Plan A is just too tight/close I'm thinking Plan C might be the way to go. Something like a 13nc more toward the center of the house would heat the entire home better obviously.

The rest of the floor plan in the new addition is taken up by furniture and entertainment. We really don't have a lot of wiggle room in there other than those two outside corners.

Really I want to keep a small stove in the plan A corner in order to keep it close to the back door where I plan on keeping my wood pile. I'd have tile all the way across from in front of the door to the stove. My chimney would be in the back of the house this way too. I'm just concerned about the size of the stove vs the size of the room and the closeness to the PTAC unit.

 

[certified106]

I agree with Begreen on the location of the stove. As far as the stove you put in there I would highly consider a keystone from woodstock since it's such a small room. You should ask Todd what he thinks about putting one in a room that small but I think the soapstone would help keep from running you out of the room and you would be able to burn that stove pretty low which will also help keep the heat from blasting you out of the room.

 

[begreen]

With a basic box or table fan on the floor in the main house, blowing cooler air into that room, I think a larger stove (with longer burn times) would work. The Keystone is what I had in mind or a mid-sized non-cat like the PE Super 27 or a Napoleon 1400. However, if this is considered overkill for their needs, I think the Englander 17VL is a nice choice and would work out well.

PS: I like plan C. What is the room above the A in the dining/kitchen area?

Also, consider using foam instead of fiberglass to beef up the insulation in the addition. 2x4 walls are only R 13.5 with fiberglass I think.

 

[MaintenanceMan]

With a basic box or table fan on the floor in the main house, blowing cooler air into that room, I think a larger stove (with longer burn times) would work. The Keystone is what I had in mind or a mid-sized non-cat like the PE Super 27 or a Napoleon 1400. However, if this is considered overkill for their needs, I think the Englander 17VL is a nice choice and would work out well.

PS: I like plan C. What is the room above the A in the dining/kitchen area?

Also, consider using foam instead of fiberglass to beef up the insulation in the addition. 2x4 walls are only R 13.5 with fiberglass I think.

The room above what I labeled the plan c icon is the actual kitchen now. The room where the plan c icon is is where our current living room is. I really wish I could of figured out how t o label stuff with the website I used, but I just ain't that smart LOL. The plan here is to move the living room out into the addition and create a larger dining area. We were thinking of opening up the wall between the kitchen and new dining room and giving my wife that bar/island that she has always wanted,. Plan C would pretty much kill that option. We'd still get a larger dinning area, but wouldn't be able to take down that wall or create an opening there.

As far as stoves go, I started a thread here in the past about soapstone stoves and cast iron stoves. I really like the idea of a slower gentler heat. Woodstocks lineup is out though. Just don't like the look (no offense to anyone). The Hearthstone Tribute has a better look and clearances. I thought heavily about it in the past. If I talk my wife into moving the stove into the dining/kitchen area we will definitely be considering different stoves. For my current preferred Plan A location in the addition the stoves I were thinking of were the 17vl, Jotul F100, or possibly a Tribute. I ultimately chose the 17vl as the front runner at this point because of Englanders excellent reputation on this forum, the price, and really 48robs glowing report on that stove was in a similar sized room to mine also. That thread pushed me over the edge for the 17vl. But everyone should feel free to point me in the right direction. That's why I posted this thread. This project is finally coming to life for me and heating with wood is something I always wanted in my own home. I was around it a lot as a kid but never had a stove myself. I should also mention that I spent several years as a heating and cooling contractor. To me there is no better heat than the radiant heat from a stove. This addition will give my wife the bigger kitchen dinning room she has always wanted and I will finally get my woodstove.

 

[begreen]

Before changing everything, don't rush into this. Keep all options on the table. Take your picture and bring it into the paint program on the computer for additional graphics and labeling. Or just sketch it out on paper and scan or take a picture of it.

 

[leeave96]

The small Englander you mention might be OK, but I don't know about long burn times. I have a Woodstock Keystone and your application screams for this stove. It is VERY easy on the eyes, and being a cat stove, you can get a loooong clean low burn and still turn it up for a nice flame/fireplace look or just more heat. One of my biggest surprises with the Keystone was easy 8 hr burns (full load to enough coals rekindle w/o match) and going literally for weeks without having to restart the fire from cold. The soapstone will dampen the temperature spikes and give-up stored heat to the room as the fire dies down - another plus for a small room install. The Keystone also has a nifty ash pan too. This stove doesn't take a lot of room realestate and you can go down to 14-1/2 inch clearance to your wall. The stove will vent top or rear too. I had mine vented top, then 90 degrees to a thimble, but when I re-did my chimney, vented horizontally straight out the back into the chimney. This also made the stove look less intruding on the room. Here in July, the stove LOOKS great in our living room vs a steel plate stove - another reason we chose the Keystone, VERY easy on the eyes year round.

Nice addition. I'm putting one on my house with an Englander 30-nch in the basement part of it. The Keystone will remain on the main floor of the old part of the house which is at the other end of the home. We'll burn them both this winter.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[Hiram Maxim]

Looks really nice!

Kind of off subject but... I would insulate that room with closed cell spray foam so that the heat transfer through the exterior walls is minimal and the heat will have a better chance to flow to the rest of the house. Just a thought :coolsmile:

Closed cell foam is R-6 per inch. 3.5"x 6= R-21 + the additional bonus of being "air sealed"

That concrete slab may act as a heat sink?

(EDIT: Sorry BG didn't see your post above)






http://www.sprayfoamdirect.com

http://www.tigerfoam.com

 

[certified106]

With a basic box or table fan on the floor in the main house, blowing cooler air into that room, I think a larger stove (with longer burn times) would work. The Keystone is what I had in mind or a mid-sized non-cat like the PE Super 27 or a Napoleon 1400. However, if this is considered overkill for their needs, I think the Englander 17VL is a nice choice and would work out well.

PS: I like plan C. What is the room above the A in the dining/kitchen area?

Also, consider using foam instead of fiberglass to beef up the insulation in the addition. 2x4 walls are only R 13.5 with fiberglass I think.

The room above what I labeled the plan c icon is the actual kitchen now. The room where the plan c icon is is where our current living room is. I really wish I could of figured out how t o label stuff with the website I used, but I just ain't that smart LOL. The plan here is to move the living room out into the addition and create a larger dining area. We were thinking of opening up the wall between the kitchen and new dining room and giving my wife that bar/island that she has always wanted,. Plan C would pretty much kill that option. We'd still get a larger dinning area, but wouldn't be able to take down that wall or create an opening there.

As far as stoves go, I started a thread here in the past about soapstone stoves and cast iron stoves. I really like the idea of a slower gentler heat. Woodstocks lineup is out though. Just don't like the look (no offense to anyone). The Hearthstone Tribute has a better look and clearances. I thought heavily about it in the past. If I talk my wife into moving the stove into the dining/kitchen area we will definitely be considering different stoves. For my current preferred Plan A location in the addition the stoves I were thinking of were the 17vl, Jotul F100, or possibly a Tribute. I ultimately chose the 17vl as the front runner at this point because of Englanders excellent reputation on this forum, the price, and really 48robs glowing report on that stove was in a similar sized room to mine also. That thread pushed me over the edge for the 17vl. But everyone should feel free to point me in the right direction. That's why I posted this thread. This project is finally coming to life for me and heating with wood is something I always wanted in my own home. I was around it a lot as a kid but never had a stove myself. I should also mention that I spent several years as a heating and cooling contractor. To me there is no better heat than the radiant heat from a stove. This addition will give my wife the bigger kitchen dinning room she has always wanted and I will finally get my woodstove.

I hear you on not really liking the looks of the Woodstock as I am not real keen on them either however the reason I mentioned it are for the same reasons as Levee mentioned. When you have a stove in a small room they can over heat them pretty quickly and the soapstone will help the heat feel softer and the cat will let you burn a little slower. However if you are really just looking for an evening fire and you want to see some really cool secondary flame action while sitting there than the Englander 17 or PE that BG mentioned would give you that. The PE Vista would also give you a 7" rear clearance to combustibles with double wall pipe which would help keep it from sticking out in the room. I'm not trying to push you one way or the other just tossing out ideas and whatever way you go I'm sure you will enjoy it.

Edit: There is also the Hearthstone Tribute It's small and soapstone.

 

[dafattkidd]

Maybe I missed this in the thread somewhere, but do you have a fireplace in the existing livingroom or anywhere else?

 

[48rob]

The room my 17 is in is 288 square feet.
It is perfect running on low.
I have a door to another part of the building that we open if it gets too warm.

A little off topic...
Your addition looks very nice, but I'd sure watch the seal between the bottom plate and the slab.
You have a lot of water washing against that area.
Also would be concerned to know if the footings the patio slab was poured on are as deep as the rest of the homes footings...if not, could create some unwanted movement with ground heave if you are in a climate with cold winters.

Rob

 

[MaintenanceMan]

Maybe I missed this in the thread somewhere, but do you have a fireplace in the existing livingroom or anywhere else?

No, there is not a fireplace or stove elsewhere in the house. The rest of the house is heated by a forced air gas furnace.

 

[MaintenanceMan]

The room my 17 is in is 288 square feet.
It is perfect running on low.
I have a door to another part of the building that we open if it gets too warm.

A little off topic...
Your addition looks very nice, but I'd sure watch the seal between the bottom plate and the slab.
You have a lot of water washing against that area.
Also would be concerned to know if the footings the patio slab was poured on are as deep as the rest of the homes footings...if not, could create some unwanted movement with ground heave if you are in a climate with cold winters.

Rob

Yeah, I had to dig down and find the footer before I could get a permit. It's code for this area. All good.

If your talking about where the bottom plate and the driveway meet possibly taking on water, then I was also concerned about it. The driveway is pitched away from the house, but I didn't want to build it right off the slab. I laid up some 4" blocks and raised the front wall up to help with any possible standing water or snow. The rest of the slab is up away from the ground. There is a bit of a dip in it that I had to seal, but it is good to go.

If you look under the front wall you can see the block that I laid up to lift the wall up.

 

[MaintenanceMan]

The small Englander you mention might be OK, but I don't know about long burn times. I have a Woodstock Keystone and your application screams for this stove. It is VERY easy on the eyes, and being a cat stove, you can get a loooong clean low burn and still turn it up for a nice flame/fireplace look or just more heat. One of my biggest surprises with the Keystone was easy 8 hr burns (full load to enough coals rekindle w/o match) and going literally for weeks without having to restart the fire from cold. The soapstone will dampen the temperature spikes and give-up stored heat to the room as the fire dies down - another plus for a small room install. The Keystone also has a nifty ash pan too. This stove doesn't take a lot of room realestate and you can go down to 14-1/2 inch clearance to your wall. The stove will vent top or rear too. I had mine vented top, then 90 degrees to a thimble, but when I re-did my chimney, vented horizontally straight out the back into the chimney. This also made the stove look less intruding on the room. Here in July, the stove LOOKS great in our living room vs a steel plate stove - another reason we chose the Keystone, VERY easy on the eyes year round.

Nice addition. I'm putting one on my house with an Englander 30-nch in the basement part of it. The Keystone will remain on the main floor of the old part of the house which is at the other end of the home. We'll burn them both this winter.

Good luck,
Bill

I am not too concerned about the burn times. I am sure you guys hear that and are rolling your eyes at this newb, but the fact is I am home a lot to tend the fire. Overnight burns or 24/7 burning isn't my primary goal either. Fact is I am up about three times a night as it is. I know longer burn times are more desirable, but right now I'm just concerned more about putting a stove in there that won't overpower the room.

The real reason the Keystone won't work is because of the clearances. Unless I can talk my wife into throwing out the TV and entertainment center, I am confined to the corner where the keystone would just stick too far out due to it's clearances and increased footprint.

 

[MaintenanceMan]

Looks really nice!

Kind of off subject but... I would insulate that room with closed cell spray foam so that the heat transfer through the exterior walls is minimal and the heat will have a better chance to flow to the rest of the house. Just a thought :coolsmile:

Closed cell foam is R-6 per inch. 3.5"x 6= R-21 + the additional bonus of being "air sealed"

That concrete slab may act as a heat sink?

(EDIT: Sorry BG didn't see your post above)






http://www.sprayfoamdirect.com

http://www.tigerfoam.com

Spray foam insulation is something I am looking into. I'm just not sure it's going to fit in the budget, but I am exploring it.

 

[MaintenanceMan]

I hear you on not really liking the looks of the Woodstock as I am not real keen on them either however the reason I mentioned it are for the same reasons as Levee mentioned. When you have a stove in a small room they can over heat them pretty quickly and the soapstone will help the heat feel softer and the cat will let you burn a little slower. However if you are really just looking for an evening fire and you want to see some really cool secondary flame action while sitting there than the Englander 17 or PE that BG mentioned would give you that. The PE Vista would also give you a 7" rear clearance to combustibles with double wall pipe which would help keep it from sticking out in the room. I'm not trying to push you one way or the other just tossing out ideas and whatever way you go I'm sure you will enjoy it.

Edit: There is also the Hearthstone Tribute It's small and soapstone.

The Tribute looks like it would juuuust work. I was highly considering one in the past, but really my train of thought was to try the 17vl. I hate to spend the money on a Tribute up front. I could try the 17 for a few years and if soapstone or longer burn times are what I truly desire then save up for a Tribute or maybe PE. Really I just keep going back to the thought that the 17vl is just right for the size room considering that it is open to the rest of the house. It's more affordable and would fit in the corner I'm wanting. I know it would take more time to tend a 17 vs something else, but I don't feel that's a deal breaker.

 

[MaintenanceMan]

Before changing everything, don't rush into this. Keep all options on the table. Take your picture and bring it into the paint program on the computer for additional graphics and labeling. Or just sketch it out on paper and scan or take a picture of it.

This is a little better.

The hallway is all screwed up, but it's really not that important.

Our plan was to remove or open up the wall between the kitchen and new dining room. Plan C would prevent that. I still plan on discussing it, but I don't think it will be met with high praise.

 

[Danno77]

The Tribute looks like it would juuuust work. I was highly considering one in the past, but really my train of thought was to try the 17vl. I hate to spend the money on a Tribute up front. I could try the 17 for a few years and if soapstone or longer burn times are what I truly desire then save up for a Tribute or maybe PE. Really I just keep going back to the thought that the 17vl is just right for the size room considering that it is open to the rest of the house. It's more affordable and would fit in the corner I'm wanting. I know it would take more time to tend a 17 vs something else, but I don't feel that's a deal breaker.

I think the 17 would be a decent choice, but don't be surprised if you get addicted and decide you need to go bigger.

I have a finished porch room that is about 15x30 and I thought I'd supplement the heat in there with a stove (weak duct line to that portion of the house and poor insulation) I bought a stove that can easily heat that space, but the heat flowed out to the rest of the house (my room is kinda like a split level, so is lower than the rest of the house) now I have a bigger stove, so we'll see how it works.

If you insulate well, the size of your room would be conducive to temporary/supplemental electrical heat, which is nice, because inevitably you'll be sick or just not in the mood to play with the fire. My room was too big and drafty, so on the coldest of days two 1500 watt heaters could barely keep the room in the 50s. The supplemental heat could be nice because it would allow you to go longer between reloads. What you'll find is that when it's really cold you'll go through a load faster and therefore wil have wilder swings in temps if you aren't constantly tossing wood in there.

That 17 is just so sexy, too. If I had a good reason to get one, I would.

 

[Hiram Maxim]

The Tribute looks like it would juuuust work. I was highly considering one in the past, but really my train of thought was to try the 17vl. I hate to spend the money on a Tribute up front. I could try the 17 for a few years and if soapstone or longer burn times are what I truly desire then save up for a Tribute or maybe PE. Really I just keep going back to the thought that the 17vl is just right for the size room considering that it is open to the rest of the house. It's more affordable and would fit in the corner I'm wanting. I know it would take more time to tend a 17 vs something else, but I don't feel that's a deal breaker.

I think the 17 would be a decent choice, but don't be surprised if you get addicted and decide you need to go bigger.

Could not have said it any better. :lol:

It doesn't matter if your home a lot....feeding a stove gets old, and you might find that you are saving so much money that you start to burn 90% or more of the time during the Winter?

Sometimes saving money up front is a false economey?

Always go a little bigger than what you think you need ;-) You'll thank yourself later

Also as to spray foam, you can also get closed cell polystyrene foam in sheets of different thicknesses for half the price of spray foam, but you loose the advantage of air sealing.


http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

 

[MaintenanceMan]

The Tribute looks like it would juuuust work. I was highly considering one in the past, but really my train of thought was to try the 17vl. I hate to spend the money on a Tribute up front. I could try the 17 for a few years and if soapstone or longer burn times are what I truly desire then save up for a Tribute or maybe PE. Really I just keep going back to the thought that the 17vl is just right for the size room considering that it is open to the rest of the house. It's more affordable and would fit in the corner I'm wanting. I know it would take more time to tend a 17 vs something else, but I don't feel that's a deal breaker.

I think the 17 would be a decent choice, but don't be surprised if you get addicted and decide you need to go bigger.

I have a finished porch room that is about 15x30 and I thought I'd supplement the heat in there with a stove (weak duct line to that portion of the house and poor insulation) I bought a stove that can easily heat that space, but the heat flowed out to the rest of the house (my room is kinda like a split level, so is lower than the rest of the house) now I have a bigger stove, so we'll see how it works.

If you insulate well, the size of your room would be conducive to temporary/supplemental electrical heat, which is nice, because inevitably you'll be sick or just not in the mood to play with the fire. My room was too big and drafty, so on the coldest of days two 1500 watt heaters could barely keep the room in the 50s. The supplemental heat could be nice because it would allow you to go longer between reloads. What you'll find is that when it's really cold you'll go through a load faster and therefore wil have wilder swings in temps if you aren't constantly tossing wood in there.

That 17 is just so sexy, too. If I had a good reason to get one, I would.

I suppose I should clarify. In the pics the sleeve next to my proposed hearth location is for a PTAC unit. Actually its a PTHP. A Package Terminal Heat Pump. There will be electric heat in the room. The less I use it for heat the better, but I am not trying to solely heat this room with wood. Just supplement with wood. We want the ambiance, radiant warmth, piece of mind for an emergency and any cost savings will great as well.

I do hear everyone about getting addicted to wood heat and possibly regretting picking a small stove. But as far as putting a bigger stove in such a small room I'm very reluctant to. We are just going to have to weigh plan A and plan C carefully.

Thanks for the input!. Keep it coming.

 

[begreen]

What is the old kitchen to become? Is there a mudroom attached? If so, maybe enlarge the opening between this area and the proposed kitchen space and put the stove in there?

 

[Danno77]

I suppose I should clarify. In the pics the sleeve next to my proposed hearth location is for a PTAC unit. Actually its a PTHP. A Package Terminal Heat Pump. There will be electric heat in the room. The less I use it for heat the better, but I am not trying to solely heat this room with wood. Just supplement with wood. We want the ambiance, radiant warmth, piece of mind for an emergency and any cost savings will great as well.

I do hear everyone about getting addicted to wood heat and possibly regretting picking a small stove. But as far as putting a bigger stove in such a small room I'm very reluctant to. We are just going to have to weigh plan A and plan C carefully.

Thanks for the input!. Keep it coming.

I totally understood the PTAC/PTHP, guess I shoulda clarified. I was trying to say that the 17 may be hard to get long burns out of, but it won't be bad because you have supplemental. I don't think you'll regret the stove, I think you may change your mind later, but that's not the same as regret. I don't regret having had a smaller stove one bit. And now I have two nice stoves!

 

[velvetfoot]

It seems to me that with the door and window to the addition, and nothing to freeze in there, you could close it off until the stove in there brought the room up to temperature, maybe using a thermometer with a lead in there.

Could you move it away from the corner some? It depends on how you figure your furniture would fit.
How about a natural gas unit? Would that be easier? Wood can be a pain.