High Valley heating problems

[dr01allen]

I have a High Valley model 2500 want to make sure it's working correctly. It doesn't seem to be putting out much heat.
I placed thermocouples in both catalyst temperature ports and at the air outlet on the top of the stove, in front of one catalyst port.
The catalyst temperature (after lighting off) ranges from 600 to 1000 F. The air temperature ranges from 130 to 160 F. The air temp tracks with catalyst temp and blower setting.
I have the flue bypass closed so the outlet is through the catalyst, the primary air vent open full, and the other vent either open or closed (not much difference in either position).
I'm burning either oak or cherry that has been cut and split for 1 to 2 years.
The dealer says it's working as expected.
The stove barely heats the room it's in, much less the 2500 sq. ft. specified in the literature.
Is this air temperature reasonable?
Any suggestions on improvements?

 

[webbie]

You cannot judge anything by the air outlet temperature. The cat seems high enough in terms of temp, although if the probe is actually inside or right above the cat, it would seem it should go higher than that at some times.

Is this in a fireplace with the panels around it? Tell us about the fireplace and the installation? Is the chimney lined with ss? Is the fireplace on an exterior wall?

 

[HotCoals]

How cold outside has it been?
From reading your post things sound ok.
The only thing that bothers me is your primary open all the way..most shut them almost all the way down when the fire has been established.
I do not know your stove though.

 

[webbie]

I too suspect the weather to some degree - if this is in an exterior masonry fireplace, 1/2 the heat could be soaking through to the outside!

One solution, if that's the case, is to remove the panels around it and make sure there is a very tight sealing plate (sheet metal) below the damper area - that wall all sides of the stove are exposed to some degree.

More serious modifications are insulating the firebox so cold doesn't wick through as much. This could eventually be done from either the inside or the outside.

 

[dr01allen]

You cannot judge anything by the air outlet temperature. The cat seems high enough in terms of temp, although if the probe is actually inside or right above the cat, it would seem it should go higher than that at some times.

Is this in a fireplace with the panels around it? Tell us about the fireplace and the installation? Is the chimney lined with ss? Is the fireplace on an exterior wall?

It is a fireplace and chimney that looks like it was added to the exterior wall after the house was built. (I've been in the house for about 1.5 years.) I had a Craft Stove insert in it last year and it would run you out of the room with the heat output but used a lot of wood and I wanted to see the fire so I bought the High Valley for the glass doors and long burn time.
It does have the panels around it. I thought it might be a draft problem so I sealed the panels to the brick fireplace front with high temperature caulk and closed the ash cleanout from the outside. That improved fire start up but not the heat output.
The brick face around the fireplace covers the whole wall. None of it gets warm so I'm assuming there's insulation behind it. The outside chimney is a bump-out off the exterior wall (which is why I assume it was added later). The outside of the chimney gets warm (warmer that the other parts of the wall but not too warm).
It's not lined with ss. I took the cap off and looked down it. It's standard beige firebrick lining and clear to the smoke shelf.
The installation was performed by someone recommended by the dealer as a professional. He looked like he knew what he was doing.

 

[dr01allen]

How cold outside has it been?
From reading your post things sound ok.
The only thing that bothers me is your primary open all the way..most shut them almost all the way down when the fire has been established.
I do not know your stove though.

Lately the weather's been cold but a week ago it was in the 40's and the room with the insert didn't get warm.

 

[dr01allen]

I too suspect the weather to some degree - if this is in an exterior masonry fireplace, 1/2 the heat could be soaking through to the outside!

One solution, if that's the case, is to remove the panels around it and make sure there is a very tight sealing plate (sheet metal) below the damper area - that wall all sides of the stove are exposed to some degree.

More serious modifications are insulating the firebox so cold doesn't wick through as much. This could eventually be done from either the inside or the outside.

There is no seal plate below the fireplace damper. The damper is open all the way and the control handle was removed so it couldn't be closed.
There is space between all of the sides of the fireplace and insert.

 

[webbie]

Sounds like it is installed wrong. You cannot install newer stoves by just slipping them in. The code, laws and standards changed long ago. You are effectively heating the outdoors and also short on draft.

At the very minimum, the insert should have a 5-6 foot flexible ss tube which extends from the flue up to the first flue tiles. Even that probably does not meet the current NFPA standards, unless your flue is 8x12 (a flue can't be too much bigger then the stove flue collar)....

See this:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/install_insert

 

[mellow]

To really put some heat out the cats should be at around 1500, I have a feeling with the lack of an insulated stainless liner your draft is suffering and the insert is not running as it should.

Exterior chimney = insulated liner especially for a cat stove that burns low and slow.

Once you get that installed you will see a world of difference, the craft stove can get away without a liner as it is non-epa and doesn't need the added draft as much.

And yes even the install instructions for the High Valley say it is ok to slide right in, not sure how they are getting away with that.

 

[begreen]

An insulated liner for cat stove is good advice, but also put in the damper sealing block off plate to keep the stove body hotter.

 

[dr01allen]

To really put some heat out the cats should be at around 1500, I have a feeling with the lack of an insulated stainless liner your draft is suffering and the insert is not running as it should.

Exterior chimney = insulated liner especially for a cat stove that burns low and slow.

Once you get that installed you will see a world of difference, the craft stove can get away without a liner as it is non-epa and doesn't need the added draft as much.

And yes even the install instructions for the High Valley say it is ok to slide right in, not sure how they are getting away with that.

Thanks, that's what I was afraid of.
When it was installed, there was very little space above the insert and I'm not sure if I could get my hands in there to attach the liner to the stove adapter.
I don't remember if there is enough room in the back to use an ell. I guess I'll have to get some flex pipe and see.

 

[webbie]

I think this is how they get away with it - quotes from their manual - not really the way I'd do it, but it results in easier sales for them and excuses for their installers.....

sort of a "wink wink" type of instructions....

 

[mellow]

The 2500 is a big insert, I wanted to get it but couldn't fit it in my fireplace. Installing the liner is always fun when it is a tight fit, you can sometimes move the insert to one side and then wiggle in the appliance adapter into the hole.

So your next steps will be to see if you can fit an 8" liner with insulation down your chimney, you will need a good amount of space for it to fit, if your chimney is taller than 20ft you can possibly get away with downsizing to a 6" insulated liner, Stoll told me it is OK to run the 2500 on 6" but will not put that in writing.

Don't try to skimp on not getting the liner insulated, you will regret it, trust me.

You can read some of the other threads on here about building a block off plate and how to cut out your damper to get the liner to fit.