Home Cheapo (Depot) Wood Stove

[laynes69]

I was at Home Depot and I was looking at the woodstoves, curious to see secondary combustion tubes. Its a neat setup, But I was wondering do alot of the new stoves have a styrofoam looking baffle in them? I know its not styrofoam, but I expected maybe to see some steel for the baffle and not this light stuff. Seems like its not too safe. If someone could let me in on it I'd appreciate it. I think it heats 2000, or 2200 square feet.

 

[jjbaer]

I was at Home Depot and I was looking at the woodstoves, curious to see secondary combustion tubes. Its a neat setup, But I was wondering do alot of the new stoves have a styrofoam looking baffle in them? I know its not styrofoam, but I expected maybe to see some steel for the baffle and not this light stuff. Seems like its not too safe. If someone could let me in on it I'd appreciate it. I think it heats 2000, or 2200 square feet.

Haven't seen that baffle but if you look up into some Hearthstone models, you'll see what looks like a Styrofoam plate...it's actually a ceramic and they tell you that if you bang it while loading a log that you'll break it..........I couldn't believe it's as unprotected as it is.....maybe this is what you also saw?

 

[laynes69]

Yeah, thats what im thinking of.

 

[BrotherBart]

It is ceramic fiber board and good for temps in the 2400 degree range. They line kilns with the stuff. Plenty safe. My Englander and many of the "high priced spread" use it. The main job of a baffle is to slow down the exit of exhaust gases long enough for the secondary burn air to combine with them and burn. My old stove did it with a 5/16 steel baffle in the top. New ones do it with either ceramic fiber board, fire brick or stainless steel baffles in the top. The ones with stainless baffles generally have the primary air passages in the baffles. The other two typically have secondary air tubes under the baffles connected to air manifolds in the side of the firebox. I am sure the Dutchwest and Harman Exception gang will weigh in soon about their secondary burn chambers which are a different, and kinda neat, arrangement.

All three are plenty safe. It is the stove that contains the fire and heat, not the baffle. I would have preferred mine be fire brick because replacement would have been cheaper but the stoves that used it didn't fit other requirements I have in a stove. Ergo, I have one with ceramic fiber board and it is working fine.

I kinda laugh at the makers that talk about a floating baffle. Heck, my baffle weighs like a feather. It can float any time it wants to but it doesn't. Even at the highest burn rate.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

these ceramic baffles are what manufactures are using to get the super clean emmission ratings. They are a great insulator and make for more complete combustion. There not to expensive to replace.

 

[BrotherBart]

these ceramic baffles are what manufactures are using to get the super clean emmission ratings. They are a great insulator and make for more complete combustion. There not to expensive to replace.

Only three times as expensive as the cost of having the 5/16" steel replacement made for my old stove last year.

I suspect that the pieces of ceramic fiber board in my baffle are something that is pretty standard with kiln suppliers and will be available for a long time and at a reasonable price.

I would be more concerned with wrecking one of my four thirty buck secondary burn tubes shoving big splits in under the influence than I would about wrecking my baffle.

 

[jjbaer]

Yeah, thats what im thinking of.

If you go here:

http://hearthstonestoves.com/wood_stoves/heritage/

then under "downloads", click on the Heritage "manual" and go to pg 6, you'll see their warning about breaking it....... As an engineer, it's my personal opinion that this stinks....the ceramic plate is a good idea but it's so unprotected that they have to issue a warning about possibly breaking it while insereting a log and thereby ruining your stoves ability to meet EPA specs!

Here's what they say from the manual:

quote,

PLEASE EXERCISE CARE WHEN
LOADING WOOD OR CLEANING
YOUR STOVE, NOT TO DAMAGE THE
Thermo-Ceramic BAFFLE

Located directly above the burner tubes in the
firebox, this white sheet of material will break if
wood or cleaning brushes impact it. Be careful
when loading and cleaning your stove to not break
this material. If this piece has been fractured or a
hole is punctured, it will cause the stove to function
improperly. You must replace the board through a
qualified HearthStone dealer.

unquote


Now...a prospective consumer has to be asking him/herself two questions:

1) the first time you throw a piece of wood into the stove the wrong way and break this ceramic plate, how much is it going to cost you to fix it and/or can you even fix it yourself or will you have to have a tech come to your house or, worse yet, have to send it back to the factory?????

2) can you imagine if, in an automobile, they told you that if the passenger climbs in incorrectly that you'd ruin the emission system .......or that if you jammed the gas nozzle too hard into the fuel port that you'd also ruin the emission system????
How long do you think people would tolerate that......? Cat converters are protected by a steel plate.......this should also be protected.....

 

[Roospike]

It is ceramic fiber board and good for temps in the 2400 degree range. They line kilns with the stuff. Plenty safe. My Englander and many of the "high priced spread" use it. The main job of a baffle is to slow down the exit of exhaust gases long enough for the secondary burn air to combine with them and burn. My old stove did it with a 5/16 steel baffle in the top. New ones do it with either ceramic fiber board, fire brick or stainless steel baffles in the top. The ones with stainless baffles generally have the primary air passages in the baffles. The other two typically have secondary air tubes under the baffles connected to air manifolds in the side of the firebox. I am sure the Dutchwest and Harman Exception gang will weigh in soon about their secondary burn chambers which are a different, and kinda neat, arrangement.

All three are plenty safe. It is the stove that contains the fire and heat, not the baffle. I would have preferred mine be fire brick because replacement would have been cheaper but the stoves that used it didn't fit other requirements I have in a stove. Ergo, I have one with ceramic fiber board and it is working fine.

I kinda laugh at the makers that talk about a floating baffle. Heck, my baffle weighs like a feather. It can float any time it wants to but it doesn't. Even at the highest burn rate.

"floating baffle" is a secondary burn chamber that sit on top of rails of sorts and is just hooked into the secondary air supply, when the stove heats and cools ( expands and contracts ) the secondary burn chamber "floats" is per its not hook into the side of the stove.

Just for the public record.

 

[Shane]

I have to agree with castiron on this one. Case & point are the refractory packages in the Cat Encore and the Acclaim. That stuff is crap. I know it insulates, I know why it's used etc. but flat out it shouldn't be. There should be constant R&D to find a stronger material with similar insulative values or a way to encase it. Really I don't care what it is and don't care to ponder it as I am not an engineer. As a sales person I hate to have to sell those refractory packages to people, and people hate to buy them.

 

[jjbaer]

I have to agree with castiron on this one. Case & point are the refractory packages in the Cat Encore and the Acclaim. That stuff is crap. I know it insulates, I know why it's used etc. but flat out it shouldn't be. There should be constant R&D to find a stronger material with similar insulative values or a way to encase it. Really I don't care what it is and don't care to ponder it as I am not an engineer. As a sales person I hate to have to sell those refractory packages to people, and people hate to buy them.

I could see problems if it's cast in place (i.e., a one piece refractory that's poured or cast in-place) because when it gets damaged, how do you fix it.....? I'd rather see pieces of overlapping soapstone laid in place or something that's easily replacable.....

 

[Roospike]

Does anybody have a picture of a delicate ceramic baffle that are being discussed ?

 

[jjbaer]

Does anybody have a picture of a delicate ceramic baffle that are being discussed ?

Go here:

http://hearthstonestoves.com/wood_stoves/clydesdale/

download the Clydsdale manual and go to pg 31....there's a primitive artists rendition of one.....

 

[suematteva]

Yeah, thats what im thinking of.[/quote

Now...a prospective consumer has to be asking him/herself two questions:

1) the first time you throw a piece of wood into the stove the wrong way and break this ceramic plate, how much is it going to cost you to fix it and/or can you even fix it yourself or will you have to have a tech come to your house or, worse yet, have to send it back to the factory?????

2) can you imagine if, in an automobile, they told you that if the passenger climbs in incorrectly that you'd ruin the emission system .......or that if you jammed the gas nozzle too hard into the fuel port that you'd also ruin the emission system????
How long do you think people would tolerate that......? Cat converters are protected by a steel plate.......this should also be protected.....

Would be interested to hear how this material gets damaged?

We have burned a hearthstone mansfield since fall of 2002 and have not had one problem with this material. Have not broken any pieces or poked any holes through it. Putting 5-6 cords a year through it with big wood and many awkward shaped pieces (some which I have not been able to wedge in and have exited the house with in my gloved hands). "What is that smoking log doing in the driveway?" Must be raining dogs and logs!

We clean our own chimney and we use a plastic flour scoop to pull any fly ash off the top this material through the flue collar on top of the stove.

 

[jjbaer]

Yeah, thats what im thinking of.[/quote

Now...a prospective consumer has to be asking him/herself two questions:

1) the first time you throw a piece of wood into the stove the wrong way and break this ceramic plate, how much is it going to cost you to fix it and/or can you even fix it yourself or will you have to have a tech come to your house or, worse yet, have to send it back to the factory?????

2) can you imagine if, in an automobile, they told you that if the passenger climbs in incorrectly that you'd ruin the emission system .......or that if you jammed the gas nozzle too hard into the fuel port that you'd also ruin the emission system????
How long do you think people would tolerate that......? Cat converters are protected by a steel plate.......this should also be protected.....

Would be interested to hear how this material gets damaged?

We have burned a hearthstone mansfield since fall of 2002 and have not had one problem with this material. Have not broken any pieces or poked any holes through it. Putting 5-6 cords a year through it with big wood and many awkward shaped pieces (some which I have not been able to wedge in and have exited the house with in my gloved hands). "What is that smoking log doing in the driveway?" Must be raining dogs and logs!

We clean our own chimney and we use a plastic flour scoop to pull any fly ash off the top this material through the flue collar on top of the stove.

Hi,

I don't know how it gets damaged other than by poking a piece of wood up into the stove and hitting it, BUT..... the important thing is that evidently it does....anytime a manufacturer prints up such a disclaimer (as Hearthstone has done) I'm always thinking that a whole bunch of people must of complained about it and tried to hit the mfg up for the replacement cost only a guess.......LOL

 

[Roospike]

Does anybody have a picture of a delicate ceramic baffle that are being discussed ?

Go here:

http://hearthstonestoves.com/wood_stoves/clydesdale/

download the Clydsdale manual and go to pg 31....there's a primitive artists rendition of one.....

Thanks castiron.

So the ceramic baffle sits above the burn tubes ? how does one get a log past the burn tubes to break the ceramic baffle ?

It it a pain to remove when cleaning the chimney ?

 

[BrotherBart]

Does anybody have a picture of a delicate ceramic baffle that are being discussed ?

Spike, it looks pretty much like a piece of white styrofoam. Weighs about the same too and I would figure about as fragile to impacts. England Stove gets sixty bucks a piece for it and my stove uses two of them. It looks like they use two so you can remove and re-install it through the door which is narrower than the baffle. Somewhere down the line I am sure I am going to put a thin sheet of stainless under it just for the hell of it.

Between the way I installed that stove halfway into a fireplace and making remarks about someday putting thin stainless under the baffle the guys in the coffee room down at England Stove Works have got to be saying "He did WHAT?!", "He is gonna do WHAT!?.".

As far as cleaning. On mine you just take out the first burn tube and slide'em out. Actually easier than getting that heavy steel SOB out of the old stove was.

 

[citizanken]

Does anybody have a picture of a delicate ceramic baffle that are being discussed ?[/quote



It it a pain to remove when cleaning the chimney ?

Looking at mine, you loosen two screws at the back of the stove, and the whole secondary burn assembly including the tubes and ceramic baffle lift out and down. It sits on two ledges, in the front.

 

[Roospike]

Here is the Pacific energys baffle sense were are on the topic.
inside the secondary burn chamber baffle there is the refactory blanket with in stainless steel.

The "stainless steel flame shield" shown is mounted to the top of the wood stove above the secondary burn chamber.

I think your on the right track brotherbart with a stainless steel plate , ya might want to some support with the plate so its less likely to warp.

 

[BrotherBart]

Here is the Pacific energys baffle sense were are on the topic.
inside the secondary burn chamber baffle there is the refactory blanket with in stainless steel.

The "stainless steel flame shield" shown is mounted to the top of the wood stove above the secondary burn chamber.

I think your on the right track brotherbart with a stainless steel plate , ya might want to some support with the plate so its less likely to warp.

I really don't think using anything other than the fiber board is going to be an issue. With the big fire box and the baffle being at least two inches above a full load if it gets hurt then there will probably be Scotch involved.

And sixty bucks would be by far the cheapest damage I have ever done when Scotch was involved.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I havent had any problems with them, in my own stove, or replacing them for customers.
Manufactures are under pressure to release the newest greatist, most efficient, least amount of emission stoves possibe. Every year its the game : " lets see who can burn the cleanist ". At this point in the game that equals ceramic fiber board. In the future we will see what material comes out. For now, thats how the marketing department can brag about 1 gram or less per hour on there stoves.

 

[wg_bent]

I havent had any problems with them, in my own stove, or replacing them for customers.
Manufactures are under pressure to release the newest greatist, most efficient, least amount of emission stoves possibe. Every year its the game : " lets see who can burn the cleanist ". At this point in the game that equals ceramic fiber board. In the future we will see what material comes out. For now, thats how the marketing department can brag about 1 gram or less per hour on there stoves.

Is that what VC uses in the ever burn stoves?

 

[velvetfoot]

While it might be easier to remove, on my last Quadrafire insert with a steel baffle, for cleaning I just removed the insulation on top of it and swept the liner down to the baffle and then vacuumed the stuff out. I wouldn't do that with the fiber baffle - too fragile.

 

[Todd]

My Hearthstone Homestead had that ceramic baffle laying on top of the burn tubes, and I had quite a few dings in it from trying to jam too much wood in there. I never could figure how to take it out to clean the fly ash out. Often wondered if you could replace it with soapstone slabs or firebricks?

 

[wg_bent]

Just went through the whole thread...My Osburn uses this stuff too, but they put a layer of firebrick above the burn tubes to prevent the ceramic boards from getting biffed. When I cleaned the stove I was super careful not to dig them as they seemed about as fragile as all get out. I'm pretty sure it's the exact same material as I used to reline my furnace a few years ago. The stuff was callled a wet pack, and was pretty flexible when I opened the package. Like a 1/2 inch thick peice of wet cardboard. Once it was dried/cured using the heat of the furnace, it was stiff as a (woops family forum) uuuhhh hmmm....peice of dry cardboard, but you could break it very easily.

The wetpack cost me 70 bucks from a local plumbing and heating supply store. I'm sure that if it's the same stuff that you could redo the top of 3 or 4 woodstoves with that single wet pack.

Research needed to see if it's the same stuff.

The furnace liner's function is to insulate the cast iron against the direct heat of the flame. Sounds similar.

 

[BrotherBart]

I think this is the same stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160017947987