House Fire

[Other Mike1]

Hi, I'm somewhat new to this site. We had a house fire on Dec 14th, and it was a complete loss. Thankfully we were able to make it outside in time, and nobody got hurt. The fire inspector for the local department has listed the cause of the fire as not determined, and as far as i know, there isn't an on going investigation, as they have determined it wasn't a crime.

The insurance company has continued with their investigation, and the latest from them is that they've ruled out everything but the pellet stove. We had a Classic Bay 1200, which was professionally installed in November of 2011. We cleaned it weekly, and kept the ashes in a metal can, 200 ft from the house. I'm a bit stumped that the stove could have been the cause, as the stove and exhaust pipes were never hot to the touch. The investigator seemed to share this opinion, but he can't find anything else that would have caused it.

Is there a history of malfunctions with that stove model? I'd just like, if at all possible, to sleep at night knowing what actually caused the fire.

Please make sure you have working smoke detectors. We had 6 in our basement, and one went off at 3 in the morning, giving us time to get out. Another 2 minutes, and we probably wouldn't be able to say that.

Thanks for any help.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Has the fire department determined the general area of the house where the fire started?

 

[glenc0322]

so sorry for your loss and glad everyone is ok. have not heard of pellet stoves causing fires but i am sure it can if there is a problem. there could be many reasons for a fire i hope you find the answer but again glad noone was hurt and sorry you lost everything. hope your community is helping out with your needs and the insurance company reimburses you good luck

 

[Lousyweather]

sometimes, even though there might not be alot of evidence, folks want to blame SOMETHING....a pellet or wood stove is a convenient culprit.....afer the F3 tornado we had cruise through here 1-1/2 yrs ago, folks are still fighting with insurance companies.......dont trust em.....

 

[imacman]

First of all, as long as nobody was hurt, that's more important than anything.....that's great news.

Was the pellet stove in the basement? Did the insurance company know about the stove? If not, they will try to pin it on that, and try to possibly not pay the claim.

AFAIK, there have not been a history of "malfunctions" with that stove any more than any other....they have so many safeties built in. Unless the inspector can point to one of the safety systems in the stove as having been bypassed, I think that is going nowhere. Hope you didn't bypass anything.

 

[Ricks]

I am sorry to read of your loss, but glad to read you made it out safely.

This website / users may be biased, but in all the years I have been reading this site none of the members have reported a house fire caused by their pellet stove. If it would have happened I think we would have heard about it.

The insurance company wants to find a reason to deny the claim or get someone else to pay for it. If they can prove (in their mind) that the pellet stove was improperly installed (by a professional installer) then your insurance company can collect the money they paid you from the installer's insurance company. Keep in mind insurance companies don't want to pay your claim.

The fire marshal should be able to determine where the fire started, not necessarily why the fire started, but at least where it started. That should help to point the finger at the stove or at something else.

Good luck.

Rick..........

 

[Other Mike1]

Smokey,

The fire started outside of our basement, near the pellet stove. The exhaust pipe traveled through a cinder block wall, into an enclosed walk out area, turned 90 degrees, and vented outside another wall (2x4 construction, no insulation). On the outside, there was a cement block retaining wall about 3 feet away, and underneath was a cement slab. We were pretty diligent about keeping any leaves or debris from collecting in this area. Like i mentioned, we cleaned the stove weekly, and were safe with the ashes.

When the smoke detector went off, we searched the basement for the cause of the fire, with extinguishers in hand. The pellet stove, which operated off a thermostat, wasn't running at this time, nor were there any signs of fire inside the basement. When we opened the sliding glass door to the walk out, it was an inferno. We couldn't put it out with our extinguishers, and just got everybody out as fast as we could. I'm tempted to think the fire was electrical in orgin, but the investigator for the insurance company says he's ruled that out by inspecting the remains. His quote to me last week, "i've ruled everything out, but the pellet stove". Like the fire dept investigation, he says his bosses have not made this case a priority, and from the sounds of it, my claim is going to be processed next month. That's good, i guess. But i have to admit i lay in bed at night wondering what caused it, and my nature leads my thoughts eventually to question if we failed to do something.

As it stands, we might never know, but i was hoping the vast knowledge of this board may be of some help. Here's some additional observations.

The enclosed walk out had a concrete slab floor, and the two inside walls, were cinder block. The two exterior side walls were simple 2 by 4 construction, one housing an additional sliding glass door (directly opposite the other sliding glass door).

We used this room to store things, but were pretty careful about not having anything near the venting tube. My wife would sometimes complain that when the stove kicked on, and the big cloud of smoke erupted from the vent, that she thought she'd sometimes witness smoke coming from the pipe into the "walk out" room (from mid pipe). I'd usually suggest that since that outside wall wasn't constructed very sturdily, the odor was just coming through from outside.

The pipe itself is discolored at the 90 degree corner (post fire). Its a funny shade of orange.

 

[Other Mike1]

To date, we have not heard anything from the insurance company (State Farm) leading us to think there are any problems with the claim/settlement. It looks like the cause of the fire is going to be listed as not determined. We didn't do any of the install, it was through the company that we bought the stove from.

The fire's place of origin is not in question, i tried to fight it. I am not looking to build a case for the insurance company, or against the stove manufacture. I'm really just looking for some peace of mind knowing my ignorance didn't almost kill my family. From the sounds of it, its very possible that we won't know what started it.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I have a lot of questions, you don't need to answer any of them if you don't want to. I too am glad that everyone got out unhurt and I'm certain that a lot of folks on here would like to understand what happened.

How far above the ground was the vent terminated outside and was the venting level, going down hill, or going up hill away from the stove?

How were the vent pieces connected?

Did they find any that were no longer sealed together?

Was a thimble used to pass through the 2 x 4 construction?

Do you remember exactly what the venting was made up of in terms of pieces of vent, lengths, size of vent, and orientation?

How many bags of pellets had been burned in the stove since the venting was last cleaned?

That orange color could be a number of things from a fire in the venting at the 90 degree bend to sealant that leaked out from the joints or even a silicone seal that some vent makers use.

This kind of looks like the fire started completely outside of the house from the description. That puts it out of the pellet stove itself and more towards the vent installation or outside conditions.

 

[MikeG]

Mike, sorry to hear about your loss. Would you happen to know the name of the insurance company's fire investigator? Would it happen to be Tim Frew? Usually a business card will be left with the home owner with their name on it. The only reason I ask is became I am also a fire investigator, and if I recall correctly I remember Tim talking about a case almost identical to this just last week that happened around mid December. If it is him I might be able to pick his brain and see what in his mind is pinning this to the stove. I have always been taught that if you are not 100% certain of the cause or could not defend your opinion with out a doubt on the witness stand, then you rule the cause as undetermined. If he rules that the pellet stove did cause it, your insurance company should still pay you for your loss (as long as they knew the stove was in the house and installed properly before hand). Your insurance company would just try to sue the manufacturer of the stove then to recuperate their cost to pay you and their investigators. Then the manufacturer will hire their own expert investigator to examine the stove and form his own opinion. If he says it did cause it too, then they will probably settle. If he said if didn't cause it, then it cause be in court for a long time while the 2 fight it out to see who investigation holds the most weight.

 

[Bioburner]

If fire was outside the exaust could be suspect. No fault if it was a blown out ember. Can happen to most solid fuel and some oil burners with right conditions. My uncle did odd case investigations, primarly fire. I was Asst. fire marshall as well. I always like seeing a bit of snow when I fire the pellet stove up. Amazed at how many places burn because of cigs. MN passed a law against Chineese floating lanterns. I could probably go on for pages listing odd fires. Good luck, been there

 

[DexterDay]

Sorry about your loss. The Classic Bay has been in use at my home for 5 yrs and been a pleasure.

There are a few safeties designed to stop the stove from self destruction. But these safeties only help the fire within.

If the fire was outside the home and the stove wasn't running?? (Do you remember hearing the combustion blower/Had it just shut down, or been down for awhile?)

I hope your situation gets resolved and the culprit is found. Keep your head up and be glad you got out with your family. Material things are nice. But those we love mean the most. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[hoverfly]

You might need to get a third party insurance adjuster to get the maximum funding you deserve. Also they might be able to help you find the actual cause of the fire since no one else wants to find out.

 

[Bioburner]

Get your insurance policy and take a good look at how long the insurance co has to get things wrapped up. If something is not right depending on the state may go to Attorney Generals office. I found some major leverage against Insurance Co in thier adhearance to what they were required to do. Got things moving when the AG was on the three way phone conversation.

 

[smwilliamson]

It is possible that something that was stored under the walkout area rested against the pipe. If your stove was smoking at start up there was most likely an obstruction. Elbows are certainly a way to turn a corner but also become a hotspot on the vent. Perhaps whatever rested against the pipe, if anything, ignited and led to the incident. Sorry for your loss.

Commonly people use pipe that may or not may need to be sealed with silicone via the manufacturer's instructions but in an area where the vent is hidden...ALWAYS glue and screw. If they ever come apart no one would ever know.

 

[Other Mike1]

The fire did start outside, not near the stove. We tried our best to keep anything from touching the exhaust pipe. The pipe exited the back of the stove, proabably about 6 inches or so above the floor, and maintained that height all the way through the basement, and through the walk out. It did have the thimble protecting the wall as it left the walk out room. Talking with my wife last night, because of the time she saw smoke coming from "mid pipe", she had the company that installed it come back out and re seal the junction where she say the smoke. She says it was after the 90 degree turn, but before the exterior wall. The pipe is still pretty well intact, and under a tarp. Next time i'm over there, i'll try and get more details on how many peices were used, and if there were screws involved in putting them together.

We've considered the third part adjuster, and have a contract offer from them. But the insurance company has been pretty prompt with everything, and have verbally told me that my settlement is on schedule for the first part of Feb, and will be at my coverage limit. So, i'm holding off on the public adjuster, unless i feel it is needed.

The fire was in Traverse City, the investigator for the insurance company is Joe R.

As many have mentioned, we consider ourselves very fortuneate that nobody got hurt, and that this story isn't a million times worse.

Smokey, a couple more answers from your post:

I believe the pipe is still completely intact. It isn't in pieces.

We burned approximately a bag a day from about early november until April of last year, and probably about that rate starting again in November of this year. So maybe 200 to 250 bags.

 

[jlupi]

The pipe exited the back of the stove, proabably about 6 inches or so above the floor, and maintained that height all the way through the basement, and through the walk out.

so outside the home it terminated 6" off the ground?

 

[Other Mike1]

Just going off of memory, i don't seem to think there was much rise as it progressed out from the stove to the interior wall, to the bend, to the outside wall. It certainly didn't go down hill at all, but i can't remember if it rose at all as it went that 6 to 8 feet.

Approximately how far off the bottom is the "exhaust exit" on a standard Classic Bay 1200? The floor in the basement was at the same level as the ground outside.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Thanks for providing more information MIke.

I've got two one more question was the stoves vent and exhaust passages ever cleaned out during that 4 to 5 tons of pellets you burned?

Most stove makers have a maximum recommended length for horizontal venting.