how long has econoburn been in business??

[cvanhat]

i installed my eko 60 myself with 500 gallons of storage. i have had no problems with the eko, and no reason to call for support. what little info i did need came from this site or searching the web. i am very happy with the unit. the only complaint i have had is from the misses who says the house is too hot now!!

 

[heaterman]

Its all about insurance. They figure they will pay out less claims if built to certain standards.
Will

In Michigan it is illegal to install and/or operate a non ASME pressurized system. Every EKO, Tarm or other brand installed here without the {H} stamp is a code violation and I'm just waiting for the day when someone has a property loss and that fact comes up in court. I'll bet my bottom dollar that the homeowners insurance company bails out and leaves their customer high and dry.

 

[stee6043]

Its all about insurance. They figure they will pay out less claims if built to certain standards.
Will

In Michigan it is illegal to install and/or operate a non ASME pressurized system. Every EKO, Tarm or other brand installed here without the {H} stamp is a code violation and I'm just waiting for the day when someone has a property loss and that fact comes up in court. I'll bet my bottom dollar that the homeowners insurance company bails out and leaves their customer high and dry.

I'm not sure I would go crazy on this point. "Illegal" and "non-compliant/non-code-conforming" are two very different terms. If you install something that is not to code it is not a crime. You risk not being covered by your insurance policy, you run the risk of civil action should someone be harmed due to the non-compliant work and you run the risk that the municipality will find out about your non-conforming installation and force you to remove it. But the local PD isn't going to be knocking on your door because your EKO isn't stamped with an "H". No different than installing something without a permit....

All that being said I still think you make a good point!

 

[heaterman]

Its all about insurance. They figure they will pay out less claims if built to certain standards.
Will

In Michigan it is illegal to install and/or operate a non ASME pressurized system. Every EKO, Tarm or other brand installed here without the {H} stamp is a code violation and I'm just waiting for the day when someone has a property loss and that fact comes up in court. I'll bet my bottom dollar that the homeowners insurance company bails out and leaves their customer high and dry.

I'm not sure I would go crazy on this point. "Illegal" and "non-compliant/non-code-conforming" are two very different terms. If you install something that is not to code it is not a crime. You risk not being covered by your insurance policy, you run the risk of civil action should someone be harmed due to the non-compliant work and you run the risk that the municipality will find out about your non-conforming installation and force you to remove it. But the local PD isn't going to be knocking on your door because your EKO isn't stamped with an "H". No different than installing something without a permit....

All that being said I still think you make a good point!

I wish that was all there was to it. Our friendly Michigan boiler code rules provide for fines and/or jail time to a person installing a non rated "pressure vessel" along with the same for an unlicensed installer who may do the work himself. Not saying I agree with those rules 100% being somewhat Libertarian in nature myself but I know of a couple people that have become far more familiar with those laws than they wanted to be through personal experience.

 

[stee6043]

Its all about insurance. They figure they will pay out less claims if built to certain standards.
Will

In Michigan it is illegal to install and/or operate a non ASME pressurized system. Every EKO, Tarm or other brand installed here without the {H} stamp is a code violation and I'm just waiting for the day when someone has a property loss and that fact comes up in court. I'll bet my bottom dollar that the homeowners insurance company bails out and leaves their customer high and dry.

I'm not sure I would go crazy on this point. "Illegal" and "non-compliant/non-code-conforming" are two very different terms. If you install something that is not to code it is not a crime. You risk not being covered by your insurance policy, you run the risk of civil action should someone be harmed due to the non-compliant work and you run the risk that the municipality will find out about your non-conforming installation and force you to remove it. But the local PD isn't going to be knocking on your door because your EKO isn't stamped with an "H". No different than installing something without a permit....

All that being said I still think you make a good point!

I wish that was all there was to it. Our friendly Michigan boiler code rules provide for fines and/or jail time to a person installing a non rated "pressure vessel" along with the same for an unlicensed installer who may do the work himself. Not saying I agree with those rules 100% being somewhat Libertarian in nature myself but I know of a couple people that have become far more familiar with those laws than they wanted to be through personal experience.

I checked this out a while back and found the following statement which made me feel okay about just about everything...

What is the Boiler Code?
A boiler is the fired pressure vessel used to produce steam or hot water. The boiler code regulates the use, construction, installation, and repair of boilers in all locations other than residential. In addition, the boiler code regulates the design, installation and repair of piping associated with high pressure boilers. The boiler code consists of P.A. 290 of 1965, as amended, the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel codes, 2004 edition with addenda, and the National Board Inspection Code, 2004 edition with addenda.

This can be found here:

http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-10575_17394_17410-42934--,00.html

 

[Hansson]

Here is the EU Pressure Equipment Directive
I have work whit this and is really hard to meet the standards.
Hard to se that it sholdnt be compare to the US standards
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/pressure_equipment/ped/index_en.html

 

[cvanhat]

these posts are so far off track from the original its not even funny

 

[Der Fuirmeister]

these posts are so far off track from the original its not even funny

Yes it's strayed a bit. I guess the correct short answer on the original post would have been "4 years".

I had asked pybyr about his Econoburn and you provided some helpful information on your EKO 60. As someone new to this site, and boilers in general, I really appreciate your information. I'm learning there are huge cost, maintenance and operational differences between the gasifier boilers like the Econoburn, EKO etc. and my old forced air wood furnace. I'm not sure that I would be considering a boiler if not for the unbiased information like that which you provided.

Thanks

 

[pybyr]

I looked really closely at the Tarms on-site, assembled and pre-assembly at their USA importer; well made, but they were already back-ordered into September when I visited in June, so it was moot. I also looked very closely at the Econoburns at the dealer that I am getting mine through, both the one he has installed in his own home and some that had arrived for other customers-- the degree of ruggedness and precision of construction looks much more like industrial/commercial than consumer equipment. Looked like it would survive anything short of a large artillery strike...

I have nothing bad to say about EKO- I've heard nothing but happy customer reports here on this group- but anyone who's bashing Econoburn isn't dealing in facts or merits. Sounds more like the Chevy/Dodge/Ford truck dealers and owners who incessantly dump on each other, when they'll all basically get the job done, and it's all mostly a matter of taste and which set of trade-offs you prefer on the minor details of design, interface, and trade offs of minor strengths and minor weaknesses.

Since my original post in this thread, above, my Econoburn arrived, and I hope to be hooking it up in the coming weeks (that darn day job that pays the bills has been standing in the way of doing so)

I should say as background that i'm pretty infamous among family and acquaintances for adhering to a perspective that when it comes to design/ construction/ workmanship, "overkill is just enough" As in, when I've framed floors, I look at the joist size and span tables and err, hugely, on the side of shorter spans, bigger wood, closer spacing. My carpenter friends chuckle to witness it, but for relatively modest increases in cost, my floors could support a vehicle, and they never sag/ shift/ bounce.

with that hard to please background disclosed, and having no stake in the company or any dealer, I am THRILLED with the design and build quality of my Econoburn unit- from the workmanship on the welds to the lacing of the wires in the relay rack and the connection box on the back. Loose and haphazard wires are not unsafe, but this thing shouts pride in design and manufacture in even the lengths of the wires and how they're meticulously loomed/ lengthed/ swept together. About the only things I've owned and seen of similar over-the-top build quality and workmanship have been electronic/comm devices from the Cold War Era, when Uncle Sam spared no expense at the taxpayers' behest.....

Now that you've had your unit for a few months how has it worked? Has the factory been helpful? I'm considering a few brands and would appreciate an update on your experience.

excuse my delay- long story short, other parts of life got in the way of moving forward as quickly as planned with the install, and the last few days, I have been working like mad on the install. I have not done a first burn yet, but continue to be impressed with the design and construction of the Econoburn, and VERY happy with their support whenever I have asked them a question.

 

[NNYorker]

Just loaded up the 100--predicted low of 1* tonight--wind chill -9*. Unlike many companies/people, they will return your call to answer your question/s. Issue with the upper combustion chamber door---gasket leaks a little. Sound familiar?? Seems like a recurring theme with most gassers.

Trevor, I think your gonna love that 150--especially with your storage. Get your wood drying......

 

[heaterman]

Its all about insurance. They figure they will pay out less claims if built to certain standards.
Will

In Michigan it is illegal to install and/or operate a non ASME pressurized system. Every EKO, Tarm or other brand installed here without the {H} stamp is a code violation and I'm just waiting for the day when someone has a property loss and that fact comes up in court. I'll bet my bottom dollar that the homeowners insurance company bails out and leaves their customer high and dry.

I'm not sure I would go crazy on this point. "Illegal" and "non-compliant/non-code-conforming" are two very different terms. If you install something that is not to code it is not a crime. You risk not being covered by your insurance policy, you run the risk of civil action should someone be harmed due to the non-compliant work and you run the risk that the municipality will find out about your non-conforming installation and force you to remove it. But the local PD isn't going to be knocking on your door because your EKO isn't stamped with an "H". No different than installing something without a permit....

All that being said I still think you make a good point!

I wish that was all there was to it. Our friendly Michigan boiler code rules provide for fines and/or jail time to a person installing a non rated "pressure vessel" along with the same for an unlicensed installer who may do the work himself. Not saying I agree with those rules 100% being somewhat Libertarian in nature myself but I know of a couple people that have become far more familiar with those laws than they wanted to be through personal experience.

I checked this out a while back and found the following statement which made me feel okay about just about everything...

What is the Boiler Code?
A boiler is the fired pressure vessel used to produce steam or hot water. The boiler code regulates the use, construction, installation, and repair of boilers in all locations other than residential. In addition, the boiler code regulates the design, installation and repair of piping associated with high pressure boilers. The boiler code consists of P.A. 290 of 1965, as amended, the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel codes, 2004 edition with addenda, and the National Board Inspection Code, 2004 edition with addenda.

This can be found here:

http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-10575_17394_17410-42934--,00.html

Hang with me here. It's a typical government mess so things are not always as they seem. You are correct in saying that the boiler division of code enforcement does not regulate residential boiler installs, HOWEVER the mechanical division does. And in typical gov't fashion rather than rewrite all their own rules and regs they refer back to the boiler division parameters for requiring ASME and installation according to the boiler code and apply them to residential applications. You can check this out with construction codes at 517-241-9334. Just ask for one of the mechanical division inspectors. Another way of saying what I just said.......Residential boilers fall under the inspection of the Mechanical division which uses most of the Boiler division rules and regs. About the only ones that don't apply are the CSD-1 standards for yearly testing of all safety's on the system. As always, it's what you don't know that will bite you in the butt.

 

[heaterman]

Heaterman,
I would be surpries/shocked if it wasn't legal to install a EKO in NY since there are a couple dealers here and who knows how many EKO already installed. If it makes a difference it is going to be installed in a boiler shed about 60' away from the house.
From my understanding when the EKO meets the heat demand and goes into shut-down (idle) the controller shuts off the fan completely and then every approx 6 mins it turns on for several seconds to give the coals a puff of air to keep them ready to fire back up. On the other hand the Econoburn when it meets the heat load it slows the fan way down but not off. This seems like it going to "waste" wood, (and possible lead to incomplete combustion?).
Our house (currently being constructed) is very well insulated (SIP panels) and 1,700 sqft, heat lost estimate is 40-50k/hr max, so until I get my thermal storage installed I figure there will be plenty of time when the boiler is just idling.

Not exactly correct on the Econoburn. It has a two stage control for blower speed on the 150,200 &300;which will bring the unit to low fire when it gets within 5 or so degrees of setpoint. The fan runs on low until a second aquastat actually shuts the blower off. When water temp comes down it will initiate another caut for heat and burn cycle. Works good from what I have seen.

 

[heaterman]

these posts are so far off track from the original its not even funny

Off topic but none the less contains a lot of useful info. I like rambling discussions of this nature. They often get everyone's noggin working off the beaten path and deliver some very useful insights.

 

[pybyr]

these posts are so far off track from the original its not even funny

Off topic but none the less contains a lot of useful info. I like rambling discussions of this nature. They often get everyone's noggin working off the beaten path and deliver some very useful insights.

I agree- it's called lateral thinking- that's how most invention happens.

Hearth, at least the Boiler Room, is like invention by collective virtual mind, where many peoples' experience, insights, and creativity is greater than the sum of the parts.

 

[Willman]

Hang with me here. It’s a typical government mess so things are not always as they seem. You are correct in saying that the boiler division of code enforcement does not regulate residential boiler installs, HOWEVER the mechanical division does. And in typical gov’t fashion rather than rewrite all their own rules and regs they refer back to the boiler division parameters for requiring ASME and installation according to the boiler code and apply them to residential applications. You can check this out with construction codes at 517-241-9334. Just ask for one of the mechanical division inspectors. Another way of saying what I just said.......Residential boilers fall under the inspection of the Mechanical division which uses most of the Boiler division rules and regs. About the only ones that don’t apply are the CSD-1 standards for yearly testing of all safety’s on the system. As always, it’s what you don’t know that will bite you in the butt.

One thing I do know is that an insurance company doesn't just stroke out a check to a homeowner in the event of a loss.They will fly in if they have to a forensic engineer to determine the cause of loss. The codes and regs and stamps are what they will be looking for. Lack of any could negate ones claim for damages. Homeowner could then be liable for paying of mortgage as well as rebuilding. Ouch. :-(
Will

 

[pybyr]

Hang with me here. It’s a typical government mess so things are not always as they seem. You are correct in saying that the boiler division of code enforcement does not regulate residential boiler installs, HOWEVER the mechanical division does. And in typical gov’t fashion rather than rewrite all their own rules and regs they refer back to the boiler division parameters for requiring ASME and installation according to the boiler code and apply them to residential applications. You can check this out with construction codes at 517-241-9334. Just ask for one of the mechanical division inspectors. Another way of saying what I just said.......Residential boilers fall under the inspection of the Mechanical division which uses most of the Boiler division rules and regs. About the only ones that don’t apply are the CSD-1 standards for yearly testing of all safety’s on the system. As always, it’s what you don’t know that will bite you in the butt.

One thing I do know is that an insurance company doesn't just stroke out a check to a homeowner in the event of a loss.They will fly in if they have to a forensic engineer to determine the cause of loss. The codes and regs and stamps are what they will be looking for. Lack of any could negate ones claim for damages. Homeowner could then be liable for paying of mortgage as well as rebuilding. Ouch. :-(
Will

Yep- unless you want to and can afford to roll the dice, DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT and PRESERVE DOCUMENTATION to show the folks who will have an incentive to deny your claim (that equals advancement in their role) so that they have _only_ one reasonable thing to do- which is to treat you as you should be treated

If you wait until the worst-case scenario to develop your documentation, you'll be a sitting duck