How long to install an insert and liner?

[SteveT]

I am having a Hearthstone Clydesdale insert installed tomorrow. Full stainless liner on an interior masonry chimney.

I just got a call from the installer (independent contractor but does all of the installs for the dealer) and he said he could be here to start the install late afternoon (5:30 or 6:00 PM). I asked him, "how late do you guys work", thinking it was several hours of time on site. He said they'd be done in an hour to an hour and a half. I told him I thought it would be a few hours. He said that since they do this all the time, and he and his assistant work very quickly (two man crew) it was routine to do it in that time.

Even so, I was surprised that it can be done well that quickly. Does this strike anyone else as curious?

Thanks.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

If they're experienced, it should go in lickedy split unless there are complications I think. Are they adding a flue liner?

I had an insert and ful liner installed in a couple hours I think.

 

[SteveT]

Are they adding a flue liner?

Yes, a full height stainless liner. Center chimney in a two-story house (Cape style, very high pitch roof).

 

[stanleyjohn]

When they installed my insert with full liner it took about 2 hrs.

 

[Hogwildz]

Depends on if damper area will need to be cut, how straight the original flue tiles are, and how easy the liner goes in.
Make sure ya demand a block off plate around the liner just below the damper area.

 

[SteveT]

Make sure ya demand a block off plate around the liner just below the damper area.

Thanks. I think the installer said the block off plate would go on the upper end of the flue. Is this a significant disadvantage?

 

[begreen]

This sounds like an interior chimney, so the losses shouldn't be too bad without a damper block-off plate. You might even get some masonry heating if the chimney is exposed as it heads to the roof.

 

[TruePatriot]

This sounds like an interior chimney, so the losses shouldn’t be too bad without a damper block-off plate. You might even get some masonry heating if the chimney is exposed as it heads to the roof.

Be Green,

Regarding the quote, above, no offense, but what would Elk say? LOL

If memory serves, I believe you are an engineer, and I've admired your thoughtful posts here for a long time now--I also believe you market some attic door/insulation products that looked like high quality pieces to me-in short, I have a lot of respect for you.

So, it pains me to question you on your response, above, but isn't a block off plate recommended for it's ability to prevent "fire/smoke blowback" and/or leakage of CO2/MO into the living space, in the event of a chimney fire?

Is it not required by code? Or does that code vary by state? I am in NYS.

Or have I misinterpreted Elk's railings on this subject? If I have, I do apologize--and I mean no offense, in any case.

Just trying to keep up with the wonderful experts, slide-rule-types and professionals/installers like yourself, on Craig's great site.

Peter

 

[begreen]

No problem, I have a thick skin (and sometimes a thicker skull). I'm not an engineer and don't market anything at this point. I grew up the son of a mechanical contractor and worked in almost every aspect of the trades from sheet metal mechanic to electrician to plumber at one point or another. I've had wood stoves on and off for over 30 years. That said, there are certainly wiser, more experienced folk here than me. I just love wood stoves and helping folks out with the experience.

To my knowledge a block off plate is not required by code for a full liner. I think this may be confusing installations with a short stub of pipe off the insert that extends into the chimney tile liner, with full liner installations. It is required for the short pipe installation, for the safety issues mentioned, not the full liner. However, I think it's a good idea for exterior flues regardless, so that more heat is going to the house and not heating the exterior chimney.

 

[TruePatriot]

No problem, I have a thick skin (and sometimes a thicker skull). I’m not an engineer and don’t market anything at this point. I grew up the son of a mechanical contractor and worked in almost every aspect of the trades from sheet metal mechanic to electrician to plumber at one point or another. I’ve had wood stoves on and off for over 30 years. That said, there are certainly wiser, more experienced folk here than me. I just love wood stoves and helping folks out with the experience.

To my knowledge a block off plate is not required by code for a full liner. I think this may be confusing installations with a short stub of pipe off the insert that extends into the chimney tile liner, with full liner installations. It is required for the short pipe installation, for the safety issues mentioned, not the full liner. However, I think it’s a good idea for exterior flues regardless, so that more heat is going to the house and not heating the exterior chimney.

Hey, Be Green,

I must have you confused with the guy on this site who is an engineer and is marketing the attic door insulator, etc.... I apologize. And who am I confusing you with? I dunno....

Neverthess, I am not confused about the fact that I almost always appreciate your posts, for their level-headed, common-sense practicality. Clearly, your multi-trade background speaks loudly to me, as the son of a man who ran his own hydraulic crane company (which I was privileged to help out in, throughout my childhood and teen years). I don't have your depth of expertise (electrical being my weakest area, but I am trying to educate myself in that) but I do do some plumbing and, as I say, some welding and a fair amount of automotive work. (I can operate a hydraulic crane but I am not licensed--in retrospect, I wonder if I should have pursued a contruction career--running cranes was always fun, and interesting....) Bottom line: I know enough to appreciate your thoughtful posts, generally.

I hear you on the block off plate possibly being required for the "short stub" installations, but not with the full liner--if that is the case, I did not know that. And I agree-with an exterior chimney, a block off plate seems to make sense from an efficiency standpoint, regardless of the (Elk-centric) concerns involving chimney-fire saftey.

I guess I must admit that Elk has convinced me of the need for a blockoff plate, regardless, for the perceived safety benefits involved. If that seems excessive, it is probably further evidence of my undiagnosed but raging "OCD-type psychosis." I feel everyone should do a blockoff plate--but I wouldn't wish my paranoia on anyone! LOL

My OCD-ness compelled me to comment, in case the O.P. had not been privy to Elk's lectures on the subject, but I'm glad I didn't ruffle any feathers.

Now the O.P. has heard two perspectives on his issue--and that's one of the benefits of sites such as this, right? The "marketplace of ideas."

Totally unrelated: I know why I'm here, at 2:38 EST--I'm an insomniac. But why are you still up? Oh-if memory serves (which it apparently hasn't been doing so well, of late), you're on the West Coast--so it's only 11:38 now, huh? Okay, that's not so late for you, I guess.

Have a good night.

Peter

 

[bokehman]

So, it pains me to question you on your response, above, but isn't a block off plate recommended for it's ability to prevent "fire/smoke blowback" and/or leakage of CO2/MO into the living space, in the event of a chimney fire?

Before the SS liner was put in the (fireproof) chimney didn't need a block off plate so why should it now? As for being a transmission channel for fire or COx how could it be if it doesn't have multiple openings?

 

[thechimneysweep]

BeGreen is right, blockoff plates are only code-required for two very specific venting techniques into fireplace chimneys; direct connect installations as he described, and above-the-smokeshelf thimble installations. The purpose of the blockoff plates in those types of installs is to prevent room air intrusion into the flue and exhaust backflow into the room through the fireplace opening. Since that function is unnecessary with full relines, blockoff plates are not required.

I suppose the arguments for using blockoff plates at the throat of the fireplace in full reline installations may appear to have some merit, but none of the professional Sweeps or installers I know give those arguments any credence. Here's why:

One of the arguments for blockoff plates that has been posted on this forum is that they stop heat loss up the chimney, due to the fact that heat rises. Well, heat doesn't rise; heated air does. A properly installed stainless liner system incorporates a sealer plate at the top of the chimney to stop the outflow of air around the liner. If air can't flow out the top of the chimney, room air won't be drawn in at the bottom. Further, the airspace in the chimney surrounding an uninsulated stainless liner is always way hotter than the air in the room below to start with, due to the trapped heat radiated by the stainless liner itself. Any air transfer from the room into the airspace surrounding the liner would displace an equal amount of this super-heated air, which would flow back into the room and actually improve the heating situation.

Another argument in favor of blockoff plates that has been posted here is containment of CO gases in the event of a chimney fire, and that point seems equally invalid when applied to full reline installations. Once a full reline is in place, any chimney fire that might occur would happen inside the liner: there would be no CO gases or other products of combustion in the airspace surrounding the liner pipe, and no reason to seal that area from the room.

 

[BrotherBart]

Bartender, bring Tom a drink and put it on my tab.

 

[begreen]

I'll buy the next round.

We've seen cases here where inserts on exterior chimneys were improved by adding the block off plate. In these cases there seemed to be a notable improvement the heating efficiency of their inserts. In these cases the block off plate with a full liner was most effective with stoves that were at their limits when it gets cold. If theory holds true this would be because the cold mass of the two stories of chimney is no longer wicking off heat from the stove. Heat migrates to cold and increasing the mass for it to migrate to should increase the rate of loss. Cutting the loss off at the damper should make a significant difference when it's very cold outside. This seems to work in the cases where the stove was unable to heat the house at very low temps.

If correct, this would also mean that the large stove, even though it can keep up with the load, can be made more efficient with a block off plate. I'd love to do an actual test of this. It would be fairly easy with an IR thermometer checking the exterior chimney temp before and after a block off plate. Any volunteers?

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11934/P15/

 

[bokehman]

What about all the heat produced by the SS liner above the block-off plate? With an exterior chimney all that is being wasted. With my install I cut a 6" x 6" square hole just below the ceiling and according to my IR thermometer the air that pours out of this hole is just over 200 degrees. With a block-off plate that would just be trapped and eventually just be wasted to the great outdoors.

 

[thechimneysweep]

BB & BG: Thanks for the cybercocktails. Went down smooth as silk, and I'm still OK to drive.

If heat loss through an outside fireplace/chimney structure is the problem, there is a better (and easier to install) fix than an insulated sealer plate. Cut four panels out of a roll of 1" foil-backed cera blanket and place them against the sides, rear and top of the outer plenum on the insert, foil-side out, cutting a hole in the top panel just large enough for the flue collar. Tape them to each other with metal tape to hold them in place, and you've virtually eliminated any heat loss to the masonry from the insert, while leaving Bokehman's chimney heat-reclaiming invention perfectly functional (although still in violation of code).

Back in the 80's, the now-legendary Kent Log Fire Insert came with these ceramic blanket insulating panels as standard equipment, and we used them on every installation. They were attached to each other with toothed bent-metal clips that "bit" into the foil backing with a little light thumb pressure (kind of like a larger version of an Ace Bandage fastener).

The Log Fire had a secondary combustion system like today's non-cat EPA models, and burned HOT. At first, we had some concerns that the wrapper would cause the inner firebox to overheat, but that never happened: the airflow through the plenum simply carried the heat into the room. The Log Fire I installed in my house in 1982 is still heating that house for the current owner.

We still use this insulation technique for outside fireplaces in cases where the house requires the absolute maximum output an insert can achieve.

 

[IK_biker]

Here's to Tom Oyen, whose posts in this thread (and others too) made perfect sense to me!

Cheers, Tom!

 

[begreen]

Here, here, quaffing my not so cyber cabernet-merlot.

 

[RedRanger]

Here's to Tom Oyen, whose posts in this thread (and others too) made perfect sense to me!

Cheers, Tom!

Right on!! My outside chimney only is totally mortared at the top. No heat escaping there! And that kodiak bear still cooks us almost right out of the rec-room. I think if a block-off plate had been installed, we would be running around down there naked. And at our age it would problably shock both of us!!

SS liner to the top. Seal around the top. chimney cap. walla, done deal.!!

Tom never said how old he was becoming when he had a birthday recently? Hope it`s just 49--cause he is a treasure of information. And, I for one wish him at least another 49 years.

 

[thechimneysweep]

Thanks for the kind words, Forumfolks!

Sonny, I hit the double nickle this time around: I appreciate your invitation for another 49 years on the forum, but am afraid the drool will have long since shorted out my keyboard by then.

I also have a great appreciation for the often insightful postings on this forum, and this thread is a good example. BeGreen's post above about the possible advantage of blockoff plates got me thinking about them in a new way. If you look at a full-reline fireplace insert installation in an outside chimney and consider the masonry structure as a big heat sink, it makes sense that any effort to isolate the heat source at the bottom from the thermal mass of the chimney above would result in a reduction of heat loss to the great outdoors and improved heat transfer to the room.

It also makes sense that an insulated blockoff plate would perform that function to some degree.

So, cheers backatcha.

 

[begreen]

I'm glad you posted your experiences with the Kent Log inserts. This topic comes up now and again and the big concern has been whether insulating the fireplace cavity would hurt the insert due to overfiring or void the warranty. Good to know there were no issues. Insulating the cavity makes perfect sense. To me, waste is waste. Even if one has a big enough stove, why send part of your hard earned cash outdoors?

My brother in law found this out when he added a greenhouse to an ell by his dining room. The ell has a nice cut stone chimney in the corner which is fed by a wood fired pizza oven in the house. This setup also heats the house when the temps are above about 25 outside. They never thought about lost heat until they added the greenhouse. Now, even if it's 25 outside, the chimney warmth takes the all glass greenhouse temp right up to 80 degrees if there is a fire in the oven.

 

[iceman]

BB & BG: Thanks for the cybercocktails. Went down smooth as silk, and I'm still OK to drive.

If heat loss through an outside fireplace/chimney structure is the problem, there is a better (and easier to install) fix than an insulated sealer plate. Cut four panels out of a roll of 1" foil-backed cera blanket and place them against the sides, rear and top of the outer plenum on the insert, foil-side out, cutting a hole in the top panel just large enough for the flue collar. Tape them to each other with metal tape to hold them in place, and you've virtually eliminated any heat loss to the masonry from the insert, while leaving Bokehman's chimney heat-reclaiming invention perfectly functional (although still in violation of code).

Back in the 80's, the now-legendary Kent Log Fire Insert came with these ceramic blanket insulating panels as standard equipment, and we used them on every installation. They were attached to each other with toothed bent-metal clips that "bit" into the foil backing with a little light thumb pressure (kind of like a larger version of an Ace Bandage fastener).

The Log Fire had a secondary combustion system like today's non-cat EPA models, and burned HOT. At first, we had some concerns that the wrapper would cause the inner firebox to overheat, but that never happened: the airflow through the plenum simply carried the heat into the room. The Log Fire I installed in my house in 1982 is still heating that house for the current owner.

We still use this insulation technique for outside fireplaces in cases where the house requires the absolute maximum output an insert can achieve.

Tom, can you point me in a direction of where to buy it from, and what is a general price for it?

Thanks Ice

 

[thechimneysweep]

Ice, my apologies for the delay getting back to you. Our install foreman informs me that we no longer use 1" cerablanket for this application. He is stoked on Forever Flex's Super Wrap insulation, which, like the cerablanket, is foil-backed and 24" wide, but only 1/2" thick. Howard says it is easier to apply, and the fibers aren't hazardous to breathe while you work with it like cera blanket.

The downside is, Super Wrap comes in 25' rolls, and you're only going to need about 8 feet ( a 6' vertical wrap around the sides and rear, and a 2' chunk for the top).

If you want, I could cut 8' off a roll and UPS it to you. Price would be $68.00 plus freight.