How low can you go w/ a non-cat stove?

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I'm on my first winter with my non-cat Jotul F 500 after burning a cat stove for many years. I want to make sure that I'm not creating more soot in my chimney so I have been careful to keep the primary air adjustment open so that I get a good solid secondary burn flames during the first couple hours of my cycle. My wife has remarked that I am spending more time adjusting and fooling with the stove than I did with the old cat stove. So I am looking to see whether I can simplify my routine.

I know I'm on a learning curve in how to operate this stove. I also know that some of my wood may not be perfectly dry (parched), but most is good enough that it burns nice and hot, getting up to temp within acceptable time frames (20 - 35 minutes on a cold start; 10 - 20 minutes on a resupply). Sometimes I may be fighting a piece or two that gets its final seasoning during the first 15-30 minutes in the stove. Next year I will have all my wood split by the end of this winter, and some will be at least 18 months split and 2+ seasoned. I burn mostly red oak. I have also learned that using smaller splits provides a faster hotter fire. However, the smaller splits are consumed faster and are not very good for an overnight (or gone to work) burn. So I use larger splits, 6"+, when I am setting the fire for a long untended burn.

My concern is that I want to turn down the primary air before I leave, but I do not want to turn it down too early, thereby generating excessive creosote. And I do not want to have the air too far open and burn up the wood too quickly and not have coals left for the morning resupply. When I around for the weekend or holiday, and it is cold out, I will run it up so the center will registered 500 - 550+ F with the blow furnace secondaries. But I am asking about a long burn set up.

So the questions are:

If I am getting some ghost flames above the wood as my secondary burn is that sufficient if they seem to be sustained for at least 10 minutes? My surface temp can be in the 400 - 450 range at the center of my cook top as shot with a infrared temp meter. My Rutland magnetic thermometer may only register 300 to 350 F in the back corner.

Sometimes the ghost flames are concentrated in one or two areas, e.g., to the sides or where the air is getting through the splits. This may be especially true when I pack in a couple or three splits between the base level and there is not much room between the wood and burn tubes. I have not sooted up my glass yet with 24/7 burning for two weeks up through Christmas.

Just trying to be careful so that I don't soot up my chimney liner. My old cat stove was pretty easy once it was cruising, just top off the wood, give some air for 10 minutes, engage the cat, give it another few minutes to make sure that cat was cooking, and then shut down the air to a minimum. While I do find some advantages to the old cat, larger firebox, easier to get a solid overnight burn, I have very much enjoyed the Olso and know that it takes some time to refine my techniques. Also, I will, I will have dryer wood next year.
 
why guess and get opinions from those of us that can not see your set up. What you are doing sounds good, but the best is to go have a look at what is happening in your chimney. No better way then to go up on your roof and see for yourself what is or is not in your chimney.
 
Look outside at your chimney for smoke after you turn it down.
 
As others have said, the best way is to look at the chimney. If you don't see smoke, then you're not making significant creosote. I also have an Oslo, and I get very good secondary combustion with stovetop temperatures less than 400F. It depends on the wood. If the wood is VERY dry, secondary combustion seems to be easier to get at lower temperatures. With really dry wood on startup or restart, I often get good secondary combustion before the stovetop reaches 300.

When you look at the chimney, be sure to distinguish between smoke and steam. If you wood isn't bone dry, you might see steam in the output. It's fairly easy to tell the difference. Steam is white and usually very wispy, and dissipates within a short distance after exiting the chimney. Smoke can be gray, black, brown, or sometimes white, is usually denser, and does not dissipate as quickly.
 
Also on the nice day when the stove is cold mirror the chimney and check it out.
 
Thanks for the reminder me about looking at the output from the chimney. When I check it in the "low secondary burn" mode (a few ghost flames) as described about, I am not seeing any smoke, sometimes a little steam. So I think I'm OK. I also shot the temp on the flue which tends to be 300+, so I don't think I'm getting too much soot. I know that the acid test will be when I sweep the chimney liner. I need to buy a new brush and rod setup as I now have a chimney liner. Thanks for the advice.
 
It sounds like you are okay and know what you are doing. The Jotul's do burn better with dryer wood and I find that they require less adjustment of the primary air. You can set it and forget it. If your wood has a higher moisture content, I find that you have to run with more primary air at first until you evaporate the excess and then you can set the primary air where you want. I prefer to keep my stove top temps in the 400-600 range as Jotul recommends. I find the sweet spot for burning is in the 500-600 range. I do have the smaller Castine so the Oslo may run a bit different.
 
Green Energy said:
I'm on my first winter with my non-cat Jotul F 500 after burning a cat stove for many years. I want to make sure that I'm not creating more soot in my chimney so I have been careful to keep the primary air adjustment open so that I get a good solid secondary burn flames during the first couple hours of my cycle. My wife has remarked that I am spending more time adjusting and fooling with the stove than I did with the old cat stove. So I am looking to see whether I can simplify my routine. Your wife may be right . . . but you're also learning . . . in time you will get the routine down pat and once you've got the stove up and running you will be reloading and not having to fool with the air control for as much or for as long . . . it's a learning process. Getting the fire going after an overnight burn for me is now a 20-30 minute process and reloading the stove with many hot coals is a 5-10 minute process typically . . . good wood helps. . . learning the quirks of the stove will help even more and that will come in time and with use.

I know I'm on a learning curve in how to operate this stove. I also know that some of my wood may not be perfectly dry (parched), but most is good enough that it burns nice and hot, getting up to temp within acceptable time frames (20 - 35 minutes on a cold start; 10 - 20 minutes on a resupply). Sometimes I may be fighting a piece or two that gets its final seasoning during the first 15-30 minutes in the stove. Next year I will have all my wood split by the end of this winter, and some will be at least 18 months split and 2+ seasoned. I burn mostly red oak. I have also learned that using smaller splits provides a faster hotter fire. However, the smaller splits are consumed faster and are not very good for an overnight (or gone to work) burn. So I use larger splits, 6"+, when I am setting the fire for a long untended burn.

My concern is that I want to turn down the primary air before I leave, but I do not want to turn it down too early, thereby generating excessive creosote. And I do not want to have the air too far open and burn up the wood too quickly and not have coals left for the morning resupply. When I around for the weekend or holiday, and it is cold out, I will run it up so the center will registered 500 - 550+ F with the blow furnace secondaries. But I am asking about a long burn set up.

So the questions are:

If I am getting some ghost flames above the wood as my secondary burn is that sufficient if they seem to be sustained for at least 10 minutes? My surface temp can be in the 400 - 450 range at the center of my cook top as shot with a infrared temp meter. My Rutland magnetic thermometer may only register 300 to 350 F in the back corner. Jotul recommends you measure the temps in the corners . . . and myself and others have discovered that sometimes there can be quite the disparity in temps between the corners . . . i.e. for me the hottest corner is consistently in the right rear -- I suspect it is due to the way I load the stove and the build up of coals there. In terms of the temps -- I used to go by the stove top temps . . . and I still check the stove top temp . . . but I also go by the way the secondaries are behaving and in general if I'm getting good secondaries for longer than 10 minutes (like you) I generally am OK in shutting down the air and letting the stove cruise. Bear in mind that the center plate is typically warmer than the four corners and you may also know that the magnetic thermometers are notorious for being off by a few degrees . . . so to answer your question . . . I think you're doing well.

Sometimes the ghost flames are concentrated in one or two areas, e.g., to the sides or where the air is getting through the splits. This may be especially true when I pack in a couple or three splits between the base level and there is not much room between the wood and burn tubes. I have not sooted up my glass yet with 24/7 burning for two weeks up through Christmas. Again, no worries . . . the ghost flames (aka Northern Lights) are not always in the same spot . . . a lot depends on how you load the stove and where the gases collect before being ignited. Having little to no black soot is usually a good sign of clean burning . . . as others have mentioned no smoke from the stack is another good sign.

Just trying to be careful so that I don't soot up my chimney liner. My old cat stove was pretty easy once it was cruising, just top off the wood, give some air for 10 minutes, engage the cat, give it another few minutes to make sure that cat was cooking, and then shut down the air to a minimum. While I do find some advantages to the old cat, larger firebox, easier to get a solid overnight burn, I have very much enjoyed the Olso and know that it takes some time to refine my techniques. This time next year you'll be pretty much doing the same thing as you did with the VC . . . minus engaging the cat . . . you'll reload the stove, get the stove up to temp (based on either the sustained secondaries . . . perhaps with some correlation from your stove top temp . . . and then begin shutting down the air control to as low as you can go to keep the secondaries going . . . with well seasoned wood you may be able to do as I have this year and shut down the air control all the way Also, I will, I will have dryer wood next year.
 
savageactor7 said:
Also on the nice day when the stove is cold mirror the chimney and check it out.

I did that yesterday and was quite pleased to find not the tiniest trace of creosote - clean bare metal after a relatively slow all night and early morning burn.

Problem is that I could only see up to the elbow. It's a major PITA to disconnect the flue pipe and get at the main tile-lined chimney from the bottom. I'm left to assume that the flue is clean for quite a way up, but that at some point the gases will be cool enough to condense on the tile wall and form creosote deposits if there is any unburned material going up the stack. I'm too old and heavy to want to climb up on the roof. My bad knees might strand me there... but at least the firemen rescuing me could take a look-see down the flue for me.

What was distressing to me was the discovery of puffy creosote in the space below the clean out door. Obviously, there was some kind of chimney fire in the past. Did the sweep miss it (it was in a "trap" that lies below the clean out door) or did it occur some time this year? I've been burning dry wood as hot as I dare (flue temps from 350 to 650ºF, stove top temps between 550 and 750ºF), so having a chimney fire at this point in the season would mean that there is something drastically mismatched about the stove/flue setup.

I'm told by many in the field to get the flue temps up to 600ºF twice a day for about 15 minutes. I've hit well above that on several occasions (causing the magnetic thermometer to slide down the pipe), but shutting down the air brought things into the normal range (350-400ºF) within about a minute or two, so I don't believe a chimney fire was driving the high flue temps.

Anyway, I'm not at all familiar with these new EPA stoves, but stove top temps of 400ºF seem pretty much on the low side to me. If that red oak isn't at least two years old, I wouldn't put too many big splits on top a night. Maybe two 6" pieces max if you are going to shut it down for an extended burn. The rest of the time, split it small and develop smaller and more intense fires to get you by the smoke.

Just my two cents.
 
Battenkiller said:
savageactor7 said:
Also on the nice day when the stove is cold mirror the chimney and check it out.

I did that yesterday and was quite pleased to find not the tiniest trace of creosote - clean bare metal after a relatively slow all night and early morning burn.

Problem is that I could only see up to the elbow. It's a major PITA to disconnect the flue pipe and get at the main tile-lined chimney from the bottom. I'm left to assume that the flue is clean for quite a way up, but that at some point the gases will be cool enough to condense on the tile wall and form creosote deposits if there is any unburned material going up the stack. I'm too old and heavy to want to climb up on the roof. My bad knees might strand me there... but at least the firemen rescuing me could take a look-see down the flue for me.

What was distressing to me was the discovery of puffy creosote in the space below the clean out door. Obviously, there was some kind of chimney fire in the past. Did the sweep miss it (it was in a "trap" that lies below the clean out door) or did it occur some time this year? I've been burning dry wood as hot as I dare (flue temps from 350 to 650ºF, stove top temps between 550 and 750ºF), so having a chimney fire at this point in the season would mean that there is something drastically mismatched about the stove/flue setup.

I'm told by many in the field to get the flue temps up to 600ºF twice a day for about 15 minutes. I've hit well above that on several occasions (causing the magnetic thermometer to slide down the pipe), but shutting down the air brought things into the normal range (350-400ºF) within about a minute or two, so I don't believe a chimney fire was driving the high flue temps.

Anyway, I'm not at all familiar with these new EPA stoves, but stove top temps of 400ºF seem pretty much on the low side to me. If that red oak isn't at least two years old, I wouldn't put too many big splits on top a night. Maybe two 6" pieces max if you are going to shut it down for an extended burn. The rest of the time, split it small and develop smaller and more intense fires to get you by the smoke.

Just my two cents.
Have you had your flue inspected? If you found "puffy" creosote there is a good chance you have some busted tiles in there. There are some exceptions but if I find one I find the other.
 
I went through some of the same things my first year with my non-cat stove. If you are getting 10 minute stable secondary burns after minimal primary air, then you are probably in good shape. But if flue temp is dropping during this ten minutes, or you hear the ticking sounds of a cooling stove, then it might not be ok.
 
Thanks for all the replies. A couple things that I have found out:

A. Just got a moisture meter and the cord of red oak that I bought last summer, even though it looks well seasoned on the outside (and some pieces are a little too well seasoned on the outside) when I split it open, I get a moisture reading ~ 25%. So while the outside is in the 15 - 20% range, inside its 25%. So it is could be better seasoned.

B. When I burned some of my oak from last year, I certainly got a faster, hotter fire that produced stronger secondaries.

C. Also some of the wood that has a soft outer surface (i.e., surface rot) seems to hold moisture in that layer even though I have kept it under a tarp for months.

So I now understand the need for bone dry, parched, 15% wood. So I am in the process of getting my wood for next year. I also want to build a 10' by 10' roof to store my wood.
 
Oak is a tough wood to age. It needs to be stored in ideal conditions to age in 1 yr. Either that or you have to split it real small.
 
Green Energy said:
C. Also some of the wood that has a soft outer surface (i.e., surface rot) seems to hold moisture in that layer even though I have kept it under a tarp for months.

How are you tarping the pile? Are you sure you aren't trapping moisture in your pile?
 
I can take my red oak and split open a large split and you can literally see how much of it has dried out. If you can still see the water in the wood it is not ready. I'll post a pic later to show you what I mean.

Also, if your glass is not sooting up, your wood is at least satisfactory.
 
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