Can anyone tell me if these stoves are still legal to use? I had a chimeny cleaner come out and when they saw my papa bear stove, they refused to clean it and left.
How to service my papa bear stove
- Thread starter Ednshell
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First, there are many models of a Papa Bear. UL Listed and Unlisted. (no UL tag)
Different jurisdictions adopt codes sometimes requiring only UL listed appliances to be used. State laws vary and local ordinances can be stricter than state wide, so it's best to check with your local ordinance / codes. Most allow them to be used when connected so they are Grandfathered until removed. They can usually stop you from a new installation since any permit requires the appliance to be UL Listed. Many insurance companies require all appliances to be Listed as well.
WA. OR. and CA. only allow EPA Certified stoves due to smoke regulations and those states do not grandfather installations or allow property to be sold with the non-certified appliance.
Did they give you a reason for not cleaning it other than the stove make and model? They should have at least quoted the code if it is a local code violation.
Clearances, pipe or chimney condition? I'd call others and let them know what you have to compare their response.
Different jurisdictions adopt codes sometimes requiring only UL listed appliances to be used. State laws vary and local ordinances can be stricter than state wide, so it's best to check with your local ordinance / codes. Most allow them to be used when connected so they are Grandfathered until removed. They can usually stop you from a new installation since any permit requires the appliance to be UL Listed. Many insurance companies require all appliances to be Listed as well.
WA. OR. and CA. only allow EPA Certified stoves due to smoke regulations and those states do not grandfather installations or allow property to be sold with the non-certified appliance.
Did they give you a reason for not cleaning it other than the stove make and model? They should have at least quoted the code if it is a local code violation.
Clearances, pipe or chimney condition? I'd call others and let them know what you have to compare their response.
Yes I contacted a new fireplace cleaner and explained it to them as well, they are coming out next Saturday to look at it..
The last company I called didn't say anything other than do you have paper work on this unit? I told him I purchased the home several months ago and have no knowledge of the stove history.... all he said was I'm not putting my company name on this stove and left, no explanation what so ever..
I'm located in Ohio and all I know is that it is a 2 door made by fisher.. I put a picture of it on my profile pic.. I don't know how to send a pic on this post...
Thank you so much for your reply, it sure did open my eyes up to things I didn't know.
By your avatar it is either a Grandma or Grandpa with "Fireplace Style Legs".
The flat top doors tells me it is pre-1980, but I need a closer picture with doors closed to give you more info.
Grandpa will have 6 bricks across back, Grandma uses 5.
Does it have angle iron welded on the corners or are the corners one piece bent on a radius as shown on the cover for 1979 below;
The box shown in front is what yours appears to be, bent corners, with the old style flat top doors shown on stove in rear. This was the first year for the new arched top doors called "Cathedral". The new doors were available as an option in 1979 and the old style flat top doors were dropped in 1980.
This was when UL was becoming the standard accepted nationwide. Most didn't have tags until 1980.
The Series III with Cathedral doors was UL Listed with a tag on the rear integrated shield. Many fabricators continued to make the box in the old style with angle iron legs that was not UL tested. (Listed) They were $100 cheaper for installation on a non-combustible hearth where the UL rating was not necessary. Now the UL rating has become a requirement for any and all appliances. The reason they asked for paperwork is the installation instructions become part of the Listing so it is installed and used as tested. There is a section in NFPA 211 (the Standard where codes are adopted from) that gives manufacture (example; leg height) and installation requirements (example; clearance or reduced clearance to combustibles, floor protector size....) for non-listed stoves.
This is one of the few manuals I don't have a copy of. Some inspectors will accept the manual showing the Listing Number (testing specifications used during test) as a Listed appliance. Technically if a tag is missing, or was made before tags it is not considered UL Listed.
The flat top doors tells me it is pre-1980, but I need a closer picture with doors closed to give you more info.
Grandpa will have 6 bricks across back, Grandma uses 5.
Does it have angle iron welded on the corners or are the corners one piece bent on a radius as shown on the cover for 1979 below;
The box shown in front is what yours appears to be, bent corners, with the old style flat top doors shown on stove in rear. This was the first year for the new arched top doors called "Cathedral". The new doors were available as an option in 1979 and the old style flat top doors were dropped in 1980.This was when UL was becoming the standard accepted nationwide. Most didn't have tags until 1980.
The Series III with Cathedral doors was UL Listed with a tag on the rear integrated shield. Many fabricators continued to make the box in the old style with angle iron legs that was not UL tested. (Listed) They were $100 cheaper for installation on a non-combustible hearth where the UL rating was not necessary. Now the UL rating has become a requirement for any and all appliances. The reason they asked for paperwork is the installation instructions become part of the Listing so it is installed and used as tested. There is a section in NFPA 211 (the Standard where codes are adopted from) that gives manufacture (example; leg height) and installation requirements (example; clearance or reduced clearance to combustibles, floor protector size....) for non-listed stoves.
This is one of the few manuals I don't have a copy of. Some inspectors will accept the manual showing the Listing Number (testing specifications used during test) as a Listed appliance. Technically if a tag is missing, or was made before tags it is not considered UL Listed.
At bottom of post box click "Upload a File" and choose photo to post. It will load at bottom. It will put it in your message where the cursor is when you click "thumbnail".
I think I got it right by the postage stamp Avatar stove
.
Here is the difference in doors (after 1977) between Grandpa left, and Grandma right ;
Notice space between Fir trees at door seam.
I think I got it right by the postage stamp Avatar stove
. Here is the difference in doors (after 1977) between Grandpa left, and Grandma right ;
Notice space between Fir trees at door seam.
Here is a pic with the doors closed.....I really appreciate all the info I'm getting g from everyone.....I'm learning more everyday about this burner......I really luv Tuesday way it looks and want to really use it this winter......I know the star knows turn to let air in and I used it a couple of times already....just was not sure if I'm supposed to leave the doors open, or closed.....also my home is about 1650 square feet, with rooms upstairs, is this unit big enough to heat whole home and can I keep burning for long periods of time? Thanks.....
Grandma III as shown on manual front I posted.
Doors closed to heat the entire house.
There should be a damper in the vent pipe that rotates to open and close. The handle should always be facing WITH the pipe (open) when starting or opening doors to load. If you want to burn with doors open to view fire; With established fire, open doors and install screen. Slowly close damper until you see smoke at the top start to roll in. Open slightly to prevent loosing all the heat up the chimney, yet let smoke out. It is not considered a radiant heater in Fireplace Mode. (doors open with screen in place) The pipe damper is the only control you have to slow fire.
The key is learning how much heat to leave up chimney to keep it clean without letting too much heat out and not heating entire home.
Check creosote formation frequently until you know how much you form by your burning practice and wood.
If someone is there to tend the fire every 8 to 10 hours, you should be able to keep it going 24/7 as long as you need. When you burn clean, you will only have to shut it down once during the season to clean or possibly only clean at the end of burning season. Many here as well as myself use the stove as the only heat source, so they are going from the end of October until you let it go out. There are many threads in the forum with tips and detailed instructions of lighting, removing ash and maintenance without letting it cool.
The star things were patented by Bob Fisher's dad and called them " air dampers", also known as air intakes or "draft caps".
Read the manual for Fireplace Series III in the Sticky Section at top of Fisher Forum page.
There is certainly nothing wrong with using that stove. Bob Fisher had no problem putting his name on over 1.5 million of them !
Doors closed to heat the entire house.
There should be a damper in the vent pipe that rotates to open and close. The handle should always be facing WITH the pipe (open) when starting or opening doors to load. If you want to burn with doors open to view fire; With established fire, open doors and install screen. Slowly close damper until you see smoke at the top start to roll in. Open slightly to prevent loosing all the heat up the chimney, yet let smoke out. It is not considered a radiant heater in Fireplace Mode. (doors open with screen in place) The pipe damper is the only control you have to slow fire.
The key is learning how much heat to leave up chimney to keep it clean without letting too much heat out and not heating entire home.
Check creosote formation frequently until you know how much you form by your burning practice and wood.
If someone is there to tend the fire every 8 to 10 hours, you should be able to keep it going 24/7 as long as you need. When you burn clean, you will only have to shut it down once during the season to clean or possibly only clean at the end of burning season. Many here as well as myself use the stove as the only heat source, so they are going from the end of October until you let it go out. There are many threads in the forum with tips and detailed instructions of lighting, removing ash and maintenance without letting it cool.
The star things were patented by Bob Fisher's dad and called them " air dampers", also known as air intakes or "draft caps".
Read the manual for Fireplace Series III in the Sticky Section at top of Fisher Forum page.
There is certainly nothing wrong with using that stove. Bob Fisher had no problem putting his name on over 1.5 million of them !
Thank you very much for taking time to answer my questions.....I am very happy to have read your response. I was worried that I was not gonna be allowed to use it and now feel more at ease. I will definately read the article in the thread about how to remove ash without letting it cool down, my goal is to use this as our source of heat thru the winter because we already stroked up on wood to burnGrandma III as shown on manual front I posted.
Doors closed to heat the entire house.
There should be a damper in the vent pipe that rotates to open and close. The handle should always be facing WITH the pipe (open) when starting or opening doors to load. If you want to burn with doors open to view fire; With established fire, open doors and install screen. Slowly close damper until you see smoke at the top start to roll in. Open slightly to prevent loosing all the heat up the chimney, yet let smoke out. It is not considered a radiant heater in Fireplace Mode. (doors open with screen in place) The pipe damper is the only control you have to slow fire.
The key is learning how much heat to leave up chimney to keep it clean without letting too much heat out and not heating entire home.
Check creosote formation frequently until you know how much you form by your burning practice and wood.
If someone is there to tend the fire every 8 to 10 hours, you should be able to keep it going 24/7 as long as you need. When you burn clean, you will only have to shut it down once during the season to clean or possibly only clean at the end of burning season. Many here as well as myself use the stove as the only heat source, so they are going from the end of October until you let it go out. There are many threads in the forum with tips and detailed instructions of lighting, removing ash and maintenance without letting it cool.
The star things were patented by Bob Fisher's dad and called them " air dampers", also known as air intakes or "draft caps".
Read the manual for Fireplace Series III in the Sticky Section at top of Fisher Forum page.
There is certainly nothing wrong with using that stove. Bob Fisher had no problem putting his name on over 1.5 million of them !
.....Next week Saturday a chimeny guy is coming to clean it out for us and inspect it as well so that way we can rest assure we are doing things right....we will keep an eye on the creosote build up until we know how often we need to have cleaned.... enjoy your winter in front of your cozy fire as we sure will be enjoying ours
.....
I noticed that you said to close the damper that is in the vent pipe, I noticed last night while looking good at it that there is not a damper on the vent pipe to close or open to adjust how much heat goes out the chimeny pipe.... are the star knob bs which turn to open be considerEd the same thing? With doors closed I would not be able to see when the smoke starts to roll back in though.Grandma III as shown on manual front I posted.
Doors closed to heat the entire house.
There should be a damper in the vent pipe that rotates to open and close. The handle should always be facing WITH the pipe (open) when starting or opening doors to load. If you want to burn with doors open to view fire; With established fire, open doors and install screen. Slowly close damper until you see smoke at the top start to roll in. Open slightly to prevent loosing all the heat up the chimney, yet let smoke out. It is not considered a radiant heater in Fireplace Mode. (doors open with screen in place) The pipe damper is the only control you have to slow fire.
The key is learning how much heat to leave up chimney to keep it clean without letting too much heat out and not heating entire home.
Check creosote formation frequently until you know how much you form by your burning practice and wood.
If someone is there to tend the fire every 8 to 10 hours, you should be able to keep it going 24/7 as long as you need. When you burn clean, you will only have to shut it down once during the season to clean or possibly only clean at the end of burning season. Many here as well as myself use the stove as the only heat source, so they are going from the end of October until you let it go out. There are many threads in the forum with tips and detailed instructions of lighting, removing ash and maintenance without letting it cool.
The star things were patented by Bob Fisher's dad and called them " air dampers", also known as air intakes or "draft caps".
Read the manual for Fireplace Series III in the Sticky Section at top of Fisher Forum page.
There is certainly nothing wrong with using that stove. Bob Fisher had no problem putting his name on over 1.5 million of them !
Yes, your air intake knobs are your control when doors are shut. I'll explain other uses of a flue damper.
I wrote;
If you want to burn with doors open to view fire; With established fire, open doors and install screen. Slowly close damper until you see smoke at the top start to roll in. Open slightly to prevent loosing all the heat up the chimney, yet let smoke out. It is not considered a radiant heater in Fireplace Mode. (doors open with screen in place)
The flue damper is the only control you have with doors open. They are very easy to install and you need one if you want to view the fire.
The flue damper can also be used when starting. Always open flue damper fully when starting a fire, spin air intakes open a few turns. When the kindling roars up the stack, close flue damper it until roar stops. This slows the fire so the heat isn't all going up the chimney and is in the stove to preheat the larger pieces to ignite larger pieces of wood. This is the time you don't want to control fire by decreasing oxygen with air intakes. You want it to get as much air as it needs to start without smouldering. Open damper to open doors to check on fire, and when larger pieces are burning, and stove comes up to temp, close air intakes to about 1 turn. Leave damper open to control with air intakes. You MAY have too much draft depending on chimney, this is when you use damper to control too much draft. You need to learn operation before slowing draft with damper with doors closed.
The flu damper doesn't actually stop heat from going out of the stove, it adds resistance to flow. The temperature is the same before and after the damper, the velocity of flue gasses changes. The flue damper controls the chimney, which affects the stove.
I'll copy and paste from another thread here to explain the chimney is the engine that makes the stove go. This gives you an understanding of what makes the stove work (oxygen pushing INTO air intakes) When you understand these basics (many woodburner's don't) it makes it much easier.
***The most important thing to learn is that the chimney is the most important and the chimney is what makes the stove work.
Rising hot gasses in the exhaust are lighter than colder outside air. (outside of the flue) This temperature difference is what makes the exhaust rise up the chimney flue. This is called draft. This causes a low pressure area in the stove, like a vacuum.
Atmospheric air pressure pushes into the stove to fill the void created by chimney. This air feeds the fire oxygen to make it go.
The damper in the pipe is used to slow the chimney or reduce draft IF you have too much draft.
No one can tell you where to set it, since there are many factors and every chimney and vent system is different. It even changes with temperature and weather as in low pressure areas moving over your house. The lower the atmospheric air pressure, the less push you have going into stove. So it would need to be open more to increase the rising gasses or increase draft. The lower the outdoor temperature, the faster the hot gasses rise causing more draft. So the colder it gets outside, the harder the stove will burn without changing controls.
That is the basics of what makes it work. ***
You must keep the chimney flue above 250* to the top while producing smoke to prevent smoke particles from sticking. If you produce creosote, you're not keeping it hot enough for the wood being burned. (another changing factor) Changing burn rate and chimney temperature controls creosote formation reducing the necessity for cleaning. You don't have it cleaned more, you learn to burn cleaner to prevent the need for cleaning.
You're on the path to burning correctly by asking questions ! It takes practice to get it right.
I wrote;
If you want to burn with doors open to view fire; With established fire, open doors and install screen. Slowly close damper until you see smoke at the top start to roll in. Open slightly to prevent loosing all the heat up the chimney, yet let smoke out. It is not considered a radiant heater in Fireplace Mode. (doors open with screen in place)
The flue damper is the only control you have with doors open. They are very easy to install and you need one if you want to view the fire.
The flue damper can also be used when starting. Always open flue damper fully when starting a fire, spin air intakes open a few turns. When the kindling roars up the stack, close flue damper it until roar stops. This slows the fire so the heat isn't all going up the chimney and is in the stove to preheat the larger pieces to ignite larger pieces of wood. This is the time you don't want to control fire by decreasing oxygen with air intakes. You want it to get as much air as it needs to start without smouldering. Open damper to open doors to check on fire, and when larger pieces are burning, and stove comes up to temp, close air intakes to about 1 turn. Leave damper open to control with air intakes. You MAY have too much draft depending on chimney, this is when you use damper to control too much draft. You need to learn operation before slowing draft with damper with doors closed.
The flu damper doesn't actually stop heat from going out of the stove, it adds resistance to flow. The temperature is the same before and after the damper, the velocity of flue gasses changes. The flue damper controls the chimney, which affects the stove.
I'll copy and paste from another thread here to explain the chimney is the engine that makes the stove go. This gives you an understanding of what makes the stove work (oxygen pushing INTO air intakes) When you understand these basics (many woodburner's don't) it makes it much easier.
***The most important thing to learn is that the chimney is the most important and the chimney is what makes the stove work.
Rising hot gasses in the exhaust are lighter than colder outside air. (outside of the flue) This temperature difference is what makes the exhaust rise up the chimney flue. This is called draft. This causes a low pressure area in the stove, like a vacuum.
Atmospheric air pressure pushes into the stove to fill the void created by chimney. This air feeds the fire oxygen to make it go.
The damper in the pipe is used to slow the chimney or reduce draft IF you have too much draft.
No one can tell you where to set it, since there are many factors and every chimney and vent system is different. It even changes with temperature and weather as in low pressure areas moving over your house. The lower the atmospheric air pressure, the less push you have going into stove. So it would need to be open more to increase the rising gasses or increase draft. The lower the outdoor temperature, the faster the hot gasses rise causing more draft. So the colder it gets outside, the harder the stove will burn without changing controls.
That is the basics of what makes it work. ***
You must keep the chimney flue above 250* to the top while producing smoke to prevent smoke particles from sticking. If you produce creosote, you're not keeping it hot enough for the wood being burned. (another changing factor) Changing burn rate and chimney temperature controls creosote formation reducing the necessity for cleaning. You don't have it cleaned more, you learn to burn cleaner to prevent the need for cleaning.
You're on the path to burning correctly by asking questions ! It takes practice to get it right.
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