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Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by charly, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. charly

    charly Guest

    Why do you feel that you liked the PH better?

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  2. woodgeek

    woodgeek Minister of Fire

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    You can't fight progress...I would guess the 2X comment from Woodstock is peak heating rate BTU/h (bigger firebox), not BTU/lb of wood.

    The 'throttle' is the thing I (would) like...you can crank the secondaries for fast heat, or do a slow burn on the cat.
  3. Machria

    Machria Minister of Fire

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    Ok, I would like to make something clear on here... I'm not educating most of you, but it needs to be clearly posted as a reminder (and I don't mean to pick out Highbeam, his posts are usually good ones!). I constantly read posts comparing the actual heat delivered to a room VS/compared to, the EPA efficiency ratings of stoves. First, realize the EPA ratings are NOT designed to measure the HEAT OUTPUT of a stove. They are designed to look at the emissions of a stove, and the efficiencies are more like an "emissions efficiency" than a heat efficiency. Now having said that, the amount of heat a stove puts into a room with the same amout of wood can vary tremendously based on the design of the stove regardless of the EPA efficiency rating. Many highly rated efficient stoves send most of the heat right up the chimney. So although they are very efficient at burning the fuel, and emitting very little emissions still most of the heat is LOST up the chimney. Other efficient stoves will instead emit/transfer that heat into the room. So, it is very possible, and very likley that there are "in-efficient" (according to EPA #'s) stoves that actually put out more heat with the same amount of wood, than stoves with a higher efficiency rating. In other words, the efficient rating per say does NOT tell you how much HEAT a stove will put out. It simply tells you how well the stove burns the fuel. What the stove does with the energy produced from the burning fuel is what determines how much heat you will get in your room/house.

    What does that mean? It means that the above highlighted statement is incorrect. Twice the heat output of a stove does NOT require twice the "efficiency". In fact, there is not much relation to the two. I'm not saying the PH will product twice the heat of the FV, I have no idea. I just hate when I read these statements here incorrectly comparing EPA efficiency’s with heat outputs. Sure the efficiency helps, and the more efficient at burning the wood, the more BTU's are available to be transferred to the room as heat, but that does not mean that is what happens and/or that there is any kind of direct correlation between the two. I think the PH is both effient at burnign wood (aka very low emmisions per EPA), and efficient at delivering it's heat to the room.




    Exactly. I'm not sure exactly how the PH does it, but it seems to suck all the heat out of the burn, and deliver it to the room. I think it's a combo of allot of thing on it: the burn tubes, the CAT, the long swirly path (aka heat exchanger) the exhaust takes in the stove once it exits the firebox, and the materials/mass in particular the thick heavy soapstone surrounding the firebox and exterior of the stove. All that stone mass just soaks up the heat/energy, and radiates it into the room faster than it is produced.
    charly likes this.
  4. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I think what is trying to be stated is the PH is a more radiant stove. It radiates more heat from the front than the Fireview. That difference doesn't show up in efficiency numbers.
    charly likes this.
  5. Dutch

    Dutch New Member

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    According to Omni Tedt Labs

    PH 81.0 HHV

    FV 80.9 HHV

    I will most certainly admit that the fuel load and burn rates in these tests are likely not real world. However, this method involves precisely measuring the heat given off by the stack (including the H2O levels, which carries higher thermal load) and subtracting it from the approximate heat input. This has nothing to do with measuring emissions. I will also admit I have yet to experience a PH burning. However, I am willing to bet the real world efficiency deference is quite minute.
  6. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    You assume too much. You assume that the efficiency rating is not calculated by measuring heat lost up the stack vs. heat input in the form of fuel.

    Why do you assume this and what makes you so sure?

    Perhaps someone with some experience can speak to the method by which the efficiency figures are calculated. The EPA posts the efficiency numbers but only from those manufacturers that provide it.
  7. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    Uh oh mach, you didn't know this? If Dutch is correct, then efficiency figures do in fact measure how much heat comes out of the stove per amount of energy inserted. Efficiency does matter.

    Thanks Dutch.

    Sure there is combustion efficiency and also delivery efficiency but at the end of the day the energy must be conserved. If it doesn't leave the stack then it enters the room.
  8. Waulie

    Waulie Minister of Fire

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    My understanding is the same. Of course the efficiency tests calculate potential heat input minus heat loss. What other kind of heating efficiency is there? Any heat that doesn't go up the chimney will certainly go into your home. I agree with Woodgeek, in that it's entirely possible to get twice as high of a peak heat output with the same amount of wood. The PH really can throw a tremendous amount of heat when you want it, but there's only so much heat in a load of wood. Regardless, I think the PH will work out great for the OP!
  9. Highbeam

    Highbeam Minister of Fire

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    And woodstock treated him well on the deal.

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