Ideas needed for backup heating system

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snowleopard

Minister of Fire
Dec 9, 2009
1,495
This isn't exactly non-hearth, but I couldn't figure out where else to put it--mods, please relocate if there's a better forum for this.

Had planned on replacing my boiler this fall, but the money is just not going to come together for that. I got through the winter with the woodstove last year, but would like to have a fallback system (the woodstove was supposed to be my fallback/backup heating system--funny how that worked out). I'll have to travel a bit during the winter for work for 3-4 days, leaving my teenage son on deck. All said and done, I don't want him wood-dependent while I'm gone--last year I asked him not to use the woodstove at all--just felt better about that.

It occurred to me yesterday that there's options between shelling out for a 10K+ boiler system and just getting by with wood. Thus this thread--looking for options.

My situation: well-insulated two-story 2Ksf house, lots of solar gain, central Alaska. NG is not an option, but oil and propane are. If I go this route, I want to get something that isn't `just for now'--something that will continue to be useful down the road.

My previous boiler was out in the garage, connected to the house w/30 feet of utilidor with glycol-filled hose. I am thinking about going the route of moving the boiler indoors--either propane or oil with assisted exhaust. This should cut back on the need for glycol and save a lot of heat. So I could get a Toyo-type heater for the house that could eventually be moved out to the garage to provide supplemental heat there. Or I could get a cutesy little propane heater that could live in the sunroom, and eventually retire to just being the occasional PRN heater. But for now, I need something I can turn on and leave running this winter that will help keep things at an even keel.

I've had really bad luck with wood dealers this summer--the first shorted me by a cord-and-a-half, the second has plenty of excuses and reasons, but not the wood I prepaid for (I know, stupid--thanks), and the one I hired to cut wood on my property hasn't come when he said he would, turned up as it was getting dark the other night (and ran over a full oil pan sitting in front of my garage, and his output has been miniscule. My stress and frustration has been growing, and I finally decided I have to do something different so that I'm not counting on these no-shows.

This house heats really easily. I've got no problem keeping it warm at -30 with just the Heritage, and before I had the woodstove, I was keeping it heated, along with the garge, for about 830 gallons of oil a year (that might sound like a lot, but it's phenomenol around here). So I probably don't need anything jinormous--just something that will ensure that the plumbing doesn't freeze up, nor the kid.

Winter's galloping rapidly this direction, and suggestions for a solution to this would be most appreciated. Especially specific ideas to look at--brand names, models, sizes, etc. I'd prefer to stay away from punching big holes in the house, and from running another stack up. Also looking for something relatively simple to implement in terms of tanks, tubing, etc. I have a 300 gallon oil tank that could be moved closer to the house, and am already plumbed for propane into the kitchen.

Thanks for reading this, and for ideas.
 
I use a non-vented gas fireplace payed a few hundred for it. I think its around 60,000 btu and comes in handy on the really cold days as well.
 
Non-vented? I know propane throws off a lot of water. How does that work out for you?
 
snowleopard said:
Non-vented? I know propane throws off a lot of water. How does that work out for you?


Works great. My house is not super sealed up. Pretty good insulation but still not 100 percent. I would not want to do a winter without it!
 
Both propane and NG have water as by-product, and both would make quite a lot of water/moisture if you had to heat 2000SF with it. I have a ventless NG heater as supplemental heat in my basement, and I think they have a role in heating, but they were never meant to be used as primary heat. You could end with a lot of condensation in your walls.

Do you really need to heat the entire house? Is there a way to protect the plumbing, and only heat those rooms that get most of the long-term use, like the bedroom(s) and maybe kitchen/bath?

If you could close off and winterize large parts of the house, you could use electric radiant or convective heaters. They are quick to heat up, and cheap and easy to buy/install. Just plug them in.

The corner room I use as an office is heated only by an electric radiant heater. I turn it on when I'm working and turn it off when I leave. Works great. Can be moved if needed from room to room.
 
I'd bite the bullet and get the boiler if you can at all. Its the best option in the long run.

If money is an issue and its really just for backup use, there is a homebrew boiler (an inefficient propane hot water heater, expansion tank, and circulator pump), pellet stove, or propane stove.
 
Hi gents, and thanks for the replies.


Money is kind of a big issue, as the two folks I've talked to for quotes are suggesting that about 12K would take care of what I need--I am plumbed for in-floor in the downstairs, and bb upstairs, but the bb needs an upgrade, and both floors are on the same valve--so need a mixing valve, and oxygen isolators to overcome the Quest tubing problem. No matter how hard I bite the bullet, I can't seem to squeeze that out.

I agree that it's the best choice in the long run--in the short run, I've got a couple of kids to graduate, and then I'll have more choices.

I figure that I'll do a lot of my heating with wood this year, but it would be really, really nice not to be completely counting on that for heat.

Don't want to go the pellet stove route. Don't need a hot water heater (have electric). Looked at the Toyo Laser 73. That's an option. ALso considering propane. Any recommendations?
 
I have 2000sf 60,000 btu is about as low as you want to go for a max, or a couple of them. I have a new 120,000 btu furnace that I very rarely use. Just got use to this ser-up and keeps the gas bill much lower.
 
I know you want a permanent, but if you have a 230v line handy, i'd just get a 230v space heater.
They can put out some pretty good heat.
@ 30 amps, they're around 24k btu.
May not seem like much I guess... but they're only $100-150 for the heater.
Supplement a couple 120v heaters, and you're set.

Anything propane wise just seems like a temporary solution and not permanent like you want.
Or start cracking down on the wood dealers, and get some dry wood?
Teach the young ones how to feed the stove.
 
You might want to repost this in the boiler room snowleopard, most of the pro's as well as boiler users hang out there

Chances are someone will offer a few options, that might fit the situation
 
Thanks, Hoss, for your response.

I tried supplementing with electric heat when the boiler went down, but my first $400 electric bill cured me of that real fast.

If I went propane, I was thinking something like the hearthstone propane stoves that would become a permanent fixture for supplemental heat.

Trying to crack down on the wood dealers is giving me fits. Hoss, you don't even want me to get started . . .

Kids are great about getting fires going (and have even been known to empty ashes a time or two). The main thing I'm concerned about there is asking my son to batch it while I'm out of town. (Sister's away at college.) He'll have responsibility for house, animals, vehicles, getting to school and getting schoolwork done, meals. I'll sleep better at nights not having to wonder if he's got the stove shut down correctly and is maintaining clearance to combustibles (loves to pull an upholstered chair up in front of the stove and park himself there).

JUst me, too--always want to have a Plan B. Thankful that I did last winter when the boiler blew--but now all my eggs are in that pretty soapstone basket. Wish Toyo made a soapstone stove.

Really do appreciate having people to kick these ideas around with, even it it seems like all I'm saying is, "Nope. That won't work. Nope . . . "
 
Ouch, electric can be expensive indeed :p
How much are you really saving using propane instead?
Do you know the propane price and how much you pay per kwh?

With my old propane stove (67% eff), it was actually the same price for me to heat with either propane or elec.
If I had a much more efficient propane burner, propane would've taken the lead... but I didn't.

If you're only saving $50/100 a month by burning propane... the high cost of a propane stove for a temporary deal might not be worth it.
Unless you can pick up a cheap used one.
How much would it cost to rig up your boiler system to run right now? and just get a cheap used propane boiler?
They're for sale everywhere cheap because of all the energy efficient intensives.
 
I think that oil is cheaper than propane by price-per-btu's. And my temporary is a few winters at least--son is a junior in HS, and daughter a sophomore in college--and she's expensive even on a scholarship (no one explained how that works to me).

Local stove store guy told me that he's sold Toyos to people as construction heaters, and ten years later they say that they're still using them--never got around to upgrading/putting in a furnace/boiler.

My boiler is fried. Not useable. THe system was seriously in need of an upgrade before it blew. Someone else mentioned propane boilers to me, so I'm trying to track down more info. I don't know anyone here who heats with propane. Even though there is talk of building an NG pipeline here, it doesn't show any likelihood of becoming available to instate users anytime soon.

I'm happy to consider all options--it sure beats my concerns earlier of not having anything but wood this year.

And I apologize about getting your name wrong. I've been calling you (and thinking of you as) Hoss as if I'd wandered into an episode of Bonanza. Sorry about that. :smirk:
 
If you're just looking to keep the house from freezing I think the propane space heaters would be your cheapest option.
 
lol the name is fine, happens all the time ;)

My parents didn't pay for my college, I worked when I went to school to pay for it.. and got loans... then paid them all off in a hurry when I got in the real world. So she's pretty darn lucky :p

Oil/Propane depends on your area and what's going on with the economy... even though they're both based off oil prices.
Around here Propane has always typically been less expensive than oil.
Propane boilers are great, oil boilers are good too.
I just wasn't sure if you were hooked up in your house for boilers or if that would be an added expense.
If you're all set up for a boiler in your house (and not garage), then by all means go for it.
Get a cheapo one, whatever you can find... then upgrade later down the road.

Toyo heaters look nice! lol.
Running on fuel oil, kerosene, or diesel with 85% AFUE to boot.
Not bad at all.
 
Frozen Canuck said:
You might want to repost this in the boiler room snowleopard, most of the pro's as well as boiler users hang out there

Chances are someone will offer a few options, that might fit the situation

THanks for that suggestion. I'll give that a whirl. The boiler room looked like it was for wood-fired boilers, so I didn't go there originally. The worst that can happen is I get the heave-ho out the swinging doors.

btuser said:
If you're just looking to keep the house from freezing I think the propane space heaters would be your cheapest option.

I'm looking for a little more than that. I'm looking for something that's on a thermostat, so that when the wood heat is firing, it stops sucking power. I'm looking for something that is set-it-and-forget-it simple, and extremely safe. I'm looking for something that can keep us comfortable and warm and let us both focus on the job at hand--work for me, school for him, and time to relax in the evening. Something a few notches up from just-getting-by. It doesn't have to be my cheapest possible option--I expect it to stand us in good stead for another 2-5 years if I go the Toyo route. Investing a few thousand dollars to get a system up and running in an idiot-proof manner is do-able. Coming up with 12-14 thousand as the quotes I'm hearing is extremely stressful. I've been planning on getting by this winter without anything but wood, and feeling stressed about it as well. Now that the idea (that probably seems pretty obvious now) of finding something interim has come up, I'm feeling at peace about it.

Hass said:
My parents didn't pay for my college, I worked when I went to school to pay for it.. and got loans... then paid them all off in a hurry when I got in the real world. So she's pretty darn lucky :p

My daughter has and ROTC scholarship, and that's a heck of a deal--if you know any kids trying to figure out how to pay for college who can commit to four years of military service, it's worth their taking a look. She's getting tuition, room, two year's board, annual book allowance, travel assistance, a monthly stipend, and leadership training at an excellent private college, and will graduate into work in her field (nursing) and get specialized training and officer's pay for those four years of payback. She thought the idea was crazy when she first encountered it, and now is very enthusiastic about it. In spite of the allotment they have, transportation to L48, living and transportation expenses in the summer and on vacation and mailing ridiculous amounts of stuff back and forth add up. I figure if she has school taken care of, then I can cover summers. I feel like we were pretty lucky, too.

Hass said:
Oil/Propane depends on your area and what's going on with the economy... even though they're both based off oil prices.
Around here Propane has always typically been less expensive than oil.
Propane boilers are great, oil boilers are good too.
I just wasn't sure if you were hooked up in your house for boilers or if that would be an added expense.
If you're all set up for a boiler in your house (and not garage), then by all means go for it.
Get a cheapo one, whatever you can find... then upgrade later down the road.

Toyo heaters look nice! lol.
Running on fuel oil, kerosene, or diesel with 85% AFUE to boot.
Not bad at all.

I'm all set up for a boiler in the garage, but am thinking of moving it into the house to save on energy. Trying to figure out a location is a toughie--best place for it would be the room where I already have the wood stove, but that doesn't really make a lot of sense to have two heaters located centrally. I might see if I can get a layout sketch uploaded and see what you think.
 
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