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In need of help/advice?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by acosta2269, Dec 31, 2006.

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  1. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    That's funny and probably true. The stove is heating up to around 600 degrees. Problem is, very little of that heat is coming inside the house.

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  2. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    We have a few Summit owners here on Hearth.com that are from NewYork , now you know why New York hasnt had much snow.
  3. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    First tell sign is the firebox is made of like 3/16" or 1/4" steel. the walls, back top, damper area, everything in the firebox is steel. Except the floor.
    Heat-a-lator has been around for years. The original part of this plce, which was a 1 story 2 room cabin was buint in the 60's so I was told. And it was confirmed heat-a-lator fireplaces were pretty popular back then. The vents kind of give it away also. But if that firebox is all steel inside except for maybe the floor, its a heat-a-lator.
    Not cheap thin steel like some cheapo pre-mades today. I bet you have one.

    Elk: Mine is a brick over block wall. That whole wall is. No combustibles untill the second story. Sunken living room, so about 12'-15'' to the next story. And also 2'x2' block chimney lined with terracotta. No heat damage going to happen here. I don't know what acosta's construction is. But I would almost put money thats where his heat is going.

    Edit: Ok I didn't see your last post till I posted this already. If its a heat-a-lator its steel, like I said all but floor. I have no clue what you have there. Whae is the wall the fireplace is in made out of? are there combustibles anywhere near the fireplace in the wall, in back, etc. I still think your losing the heat out those vents. Prolly an outside air vent, and like others said, your heating the neighborhood.
  4. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    We had small snow showers here the last few days, problem is, it won't lay here. I think the Summit has a several square mile heating radius :)
    No wonder my neighbors are so nice to me :).
    Some days however, its ok here, but snowing over the nuke plant, thats no BS either. Weird stuff.
  5. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    So I tried the incense into the outside vent this morning. The vent seems to be drawing in the smoke, but I don't smell anything inside the house. To be honest though, it may be tough to actually smell inside the house. Mixing with the cold outside air, I'm not sure how apparent the smell would be, but it was drawing the smoke into the vent.

    I also spoke to the installer this morning. He was "shocked" that the unit wasn't throwing off more heat. He DID NOT install a block off plate. Rather, he stuffed the top "nice and tight" with insulation. He said that was "better" at avoiding drafts and keeps the pipe from moving.

    He was going to call Pacific Energy to see if they had any thoughts.

    Here are the pictures of the inside and outside air vents.

    Attached Files:

  6. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Im making light of this statement so keep on smiling

    He said that was “better” at avoiding drafts and keeps the pipe from moving.

    Let me interpet this installers speak

    I'm bs-ing you because I was too freaking lazy to do it the right way He might have had some creedence in the avoiding drafts
    but the next statment was comming out the seat of his pants
    keeps the pipe from moving

    After that statement any else that came from his lips consider lip service.

    Remember over the weekend I stated there are idiot installer still trying to use common fiberglass insulation as the block off Found in the post ,
    where it was exploded out during the flashback explosion that blew the suround off and knocked the tea pot off the stove

    When speaking to this installer again ask him this can he provide proof tha common insulation is listed for that application?
    like the listing from ownes corning where it has been tested and listed for that application. did he take the paper backing offf?

    Ask him the temperature range of common insulation then ask him if it is approved for direct contact with the liner

    Ask him is he would direct you to where ASTME or sillimar agencies approves of this type of installation and substitution of approved block off material?

    Did he pull a permit for the install was it inspected and approved?.. Human nature would now be wondering what other short cuts he made
  7. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    Elk,

    I got the same feeling that he was BS'ing me when I spoke to him. The insulation is probably cheaper and easier for him to install, which is why he used it.

    I did file for a permit before the install. The building inspector came the other day and he really didn't look at the stove all that much. He asked me to get an affidavit from the installer on the specifics of the installation. I also mentioned my heat output problem to him and he said he would do a little research and get back to me. Meanwhile the installer called me back and said he spoke to Pacific Energy and the stove temps of 600 degrees are normal (actually a little high) and stove is operating normally. I should try burning different wood and keeping the blower fan a little lower (about 1/2 it's capacity). "Let's see if that works". I feel like I live is Bizzaro world and everyone keeps passing the buck! (The inspector back to the installer. The installer back to PE. PE back to me).

    Could the insulation, instead of the block off plate, be causing this? Is the insulation there dangerous? Is that not code? Should I mention it to the building inspector?

    He really didn't answer my questions about the outside air supply. He said they didn't notice one. If they noticed one during the installation they would have closed it off. Whatever that means. It's pretty clear that I have one, so I don't really know what that means. Could that be the problem?
  8. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Now I would really want to know how the installer connected the OAK and if any other corners have been cut here?

    The outside vent at this point is a complete mystery. If it's venting the stack, that would lead me to wonder if the chimney is brick or just a brick veneered chase. Is there cool air coming from the interior hole on the upper side of the fireplace? Or if you hold an incense stick near it, does it draw air?
  9. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    I would demand removal of that fiberglass insulation & installation of the block off plate. Block off plate is stated right in the manual! Either at damper area, or seal around surround (tightly), if its stone you'll never get it to seal tight. I'd demand a damper blockoff plate.
  10. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    Is that what the block off plate does?
  11. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    I held the incense stick there this morning. It drew the smoke in. Not terrible fast (like a vacuum), but it definitely drew it in. I didn't notice the smell of the incense in the house though. Maybe it was too diluted with the outside air
  12. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    acosta I'm a pressed fot time but promise to adress some of this issues after bowling 9:00 EST
    I agreee if you are reaching 600 degrees its not the stove or draft or moisture in the wood
  13. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    Elk, Have fun.
  14. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    You have inside vents on the hearth pulling inside air out and you have outside vents pulling air in and must be up the hearth.

    I'm not a hearth / fireplace expert but as we know the fireplace is not very efficient and as to the design of the fireplace with an open fire the designs ( vents ) sound like they are made to keep the hearth and construction cool and keep from overheating.

    To me it sounds like the design for the fireplace is a backfire design for a wood stove insert.

    Obviously if a hearth / chimney was designed for max efficiency it would be on the inside of the home like they were many years ago.

    The fine line is to figure out the best way to keep the hearth from venting the heat out of the house wile stil being within the design of the fireplace as to how it was built to keep its construction cool.

    Does anybody know if these vents are more to the side of keeping construction cool or to keep fireplace smoke smell going up the chimney ?
  15. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    So to prove to myself that I'm not going crazy, I went out and bought a thermometer to try to measure the temperature of the air coming out of the blower. It's been hanging there for a few hours now and it reads 73.8 degrees. It hasn't really gone much higher than that. I know the thermometer works because if I lower it closer to glass (which is boiling hot) the temperature starts to rise, quickly. The stove temp (on the face of the stove) is 500 degrees but the hanging thermometer reads 73.8 degrees. Odd!

    Shouldn't the temperature of this air out of the blower be higher? The installer today said the air out of the blower should be around 200 degrees, but judging from the quality of his installation, I don't think he really knows what he's talking about. Has anyone ever measured this?

    Attached Files:

  16. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    That just f-n crazy ! ...............

    O'......O'........New test , every one test there stove ....................................
  17. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    Roo, you thought I was nuts, right?

    It's ok..I thought I was nuts!
  18. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    .......................TESTING...........................................................................




    Not sure how the insert surrounds are put together but maybe something is not put together correct ? A panel , a shield not in place or installed right ?

    500° temp on the stove and 73° heat out put from the blower , that has to be a magic trick.
  19. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    Alright , freestanding Summit , front temp 490° , thermometer 12" away , blower on medium , temperature 178°

    Not an insert test so it will differ but 105° difference ?!?! I think the insert blower temp should be warmer then a free stander.

    Are you sure your Summit is not set on A/C mode ?
  20. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    That was my thought from the begining, that something wasn't installed correctly. It's either not installed correctly, or the vents (inside or outside) are causing the problem.

    I also got some additional information today from the installer...

    (1) No block off plate was installed. He stuffed the top with insulation instead.
    (2) He did not use a full flue liner. Instead he used a 6" - 5 foot liner.
    (3) He's clueless!
  21. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    LOL

    And your thermometer was 12" away....mine is about 2" away.
  22. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    Found Willhounds Summit install pics , looking at the insert it looks like the suround is 1 piece except for the top shield , couldnt find a pic of the top shield except for once its installed.

    Attached Files:

  23. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Every post more and more is disclosed your instalation was short changed de did a direct connect with out a block off plate? Lets review
    what's happening can you scan in in a copy of the bill for the instalation block off persomnal information I want to see what you paid for and materials listed
    what is your current flue size servicing that fireplace? this is a masonry fire place? was outside air connected to your summit? Is this fireplace a prefab with vents?
    I want to narrow down the facts because at one time there were two posters with similar problems One picture I see a vent in a plastered wall. What function does it serve.

    I want to know the relationship with the retailer that sold you the stove and the person who installed the stove does he work for the retailer or is he subcontracted?

    Age of the home did you know in 1998 BOCA national mechanical codes required the installation of outside air feeds for all newly constructed fireplaces.

    I know I an asking for repeat iinfo but weeding threw 7 pages takes time Humor all followers with my request. Also any communications with the retailer or the installer.

    the last thing PE wants is for me to call them and tell them Roospike is pissed at them. PS PM ne your town and the dealers name

    In the summer of 1996 I persented a mechanical seminar for the entire eastern states building inspector's convention all states east of the
    Mississippi (hey did I spell that correct) River I have contacts at your state level to drop a dime on
  24. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    Combustion Air
    Consult local building codes regarding combustion air supply.
    Intake or combustion air can be supplied to the Insert in one of
    two ways:
    1) Outside air supply: Remove cover from ash clean out in
    existing fireplace. Place a rodent screen in place of the
    cover. Install the Insert as described in the "Installation"
    section, making sure not to cover the opening of the air
    inlet. When installation is complete, seal surround to
    fireplace and anywhere else air may enter. This will ensure
    combustion air is drawn from outside the house and into
    the 7" x 2" intake at the lower rear of the appliance.

    2) Room air supply: Remove the 4" knock-out plug from
    either casing side prior to installation (Fig. #11). Install the
    Insert as described in the "Installation" section. The Insert
    will now draw its air from the room through the front.

    **************************************************************
    This is what i have found ,
    manual does not show picture of outside air supply (1)

    Pictured below is the top panel of the surround of the insert , the other picture of the room supply air knock out of the surround.

    Attached Files:

  25. acosta2269

    acosta2269 New Member

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    Here's the invoice....

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