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In response to Sugars question on Europas gasification techniques.

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by Fsappo, Nov 4, 2009.

  1. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    This is the answer I got from Claude, asking him to help figure out a way to run a side by side comparison"
    The common client may think you are over doing it a little ,but what I’m reading its the dealers that are on your case .
    I’ve gave up with them “ so call know it alls “ a long time ago.
    My first questions , and with the proper answers I would go forward in discussion if not the right answers lets stop wasting our time.
    (Its like going to the dentist for a heart examination )
    a- Is their a difference using more or less air when burning fuels . Yes or NO
    b- Is their a difference with a normal fuel bed or with a lesser fuel bed . Yes or NO
    c- Is it important to know heat exchanger can play a roll in efficiencies . Yes or NO
    You know why I’m silent with all these debates .
    a- Most dealer don’t know what they are talking about .
    b- Ask them what are the efficiencies of Breckwell ,Enviro ,American Energy stove etc. etc. they just read the brochure.

    The day a major manufacturer challenges our claims (which will not happen) that’s means he is open for a debate .
    He doesn’t want to expose his ( no) technology and lose credibility , that’s why no one has offered a unit to challenge ours
    Now if no one can’t see that writing on the wall, that’s their problem ,not mine.

    We can stand beside our product any day of the week. You Frank and I.

    cl……..

    So, I'm gonna find a way to do this testing on my own, with the help of the people who are offering suggestions here. If I come up with an unbiased way to do so, I'll contact Craig (webmaster) and see if he wants to run the tests

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  2. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    Frank`s , I`m sure you understand that no one actually has issues with you personally or do they doubt the sincerity of your stated customer claims. All we would like to know is if the Europa really does put out more heat with less pellets as in their claims. It doesn`t seem as though CL is willing to lend you much support on it.
    Obviously it`s going to be difficult and near impossible to do a valid comparison anywhere but at a certified testing facility and consequently anywhere else would always be open to criticism and still costly not to mention tedious and difficult to arrange. It will most certainly fall by the wayside. I think it makes sense to do any testing right in place at your shop where the stove is already set up and running.
    Why not you invite 2-3 forum members of your choice to your shop to do an on site evaluation of the stove . They could bring their thermostats , probes, and remote heat guns to test with their own methods. Pellets could be measured and burned in pounds per hr.
    I know it would be far from exacting but you yourself claim the stove noticeably produces more heat than others. The team should be able to come to the same conclusion as you have and their testimony would be better received since they would be forum members with nothing to gain by skewing their findings. The forum readership probably puts more faith in actual hands on user reports than any brochure exaggerations.
    I`d have to feel most forum members place a lot of credibility in folks like Tjakeman , Macman , Smokey Bear, and Craig our administrator .
  3. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    Gio, I would love some or all of the forum members to come out and do some testing. Hell, I'll even whip out the Traeger and do some bbq for everyone. They can test and probe away...but to what result? This is my dilema. So, I can burn two stoves at 2 lbs per hour, have folks stand in front and see the difference in heat..but thats subjective, right? They can measure 275 degree heat coming out of the Europa at that feed rate and 175 out of another stove...but that can be due to the difference in CFMS between the two convection fans. They could measure exhuast on both stoves, but that could be affected by pipe runs. So, you'd get a bunch of guys all saying. "oh wow, yeah, that Europa makes a lot of heat on x lbs per hour, amazing..a lot more than that brand x over there" Which is all well and good. But what I am trying to determine is how much less fuel for the Europa to heat X square feet. Thats the claim Claude made to me (30-40% less fuel) Thats the claim I make to my customers, and thats what I feel should be proven. It should be done in a somewhat controlled test. I would care less if it ended up being 26% less fuel, 36% or 46%...what I care about is getting a hard number when comparing the Europa to stoves like Enviro, Quad, Harman. It would be nice to be able to tell a customer"well, you can spend $3500 on a Quad AE or $4500 on a Europa, because this study shows that the Europa will save you $400-500 a year in fuel costs"

    By the way, if the forum members made a field trip, you should probably come along to Gio. I'm not sure it's the study I'm looking for, but it may be a start. Let's see if any other forum members show any kind of interest in coming out. We would need to do it on a Sunday, aside from that..."release the hounds!"
  4. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    Frank`s,
    I really don`t think anything else except a trip to your shop is going to happen any time soon, and the season is fast coming to a close anyway.
    Regarding the value of my suggested on site testing and potential positive conclusions of experienced forum members being there and witnessing this stove operate would be more valid and do more good than anything printed in a sales brochure. Of course there always exists a possibility that the conclusions could be negative and therefore should be a consideration for you , but knowing how upbeat and how fond you are with the Europa that probably wouldn`t worry you at all.

    Running two stoves side by side shouldn`t have to be a necessity for doing a basic evaluation. I`d be the last to claim I`m qualified as an expert but after burning pellets for two yrs in at least 4 different stoves I think even I have enough experience to judge whether or not a particular stove puts out a lot of heat without having another one running at it`s side to compare with. Theoretically numbers arrived at from test procedures don`t lie but in actual practice differences are often drawn. Real world use is often also required to draw other conclusions that could be more usefull to the end user..
    As I inferred earlier , any actual valid testing and comparisons just aren`t gonna happen and this might be the best alternative.
  5. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    Nah, I'm not too worried about negative conclusions. The worst that could happen is Pook showing up trying to fit a magic heat into a 3" pellet vent flue. I still think it would be a fun thing to do. Even if I did start another thread inviting folks for a Sunday bbq and get together, we'd probably get 500 RSVPS but when Sunday came it would be me and Kenny Chaos eating ribs and playing cards. I may just throw something out there though in a seperate thread..should probably end up going in the ash can.

    Thanks Gio, it may not be the test I'm looking for, but it sure would be a fun idea and a way to meet some other forum members.
  6. vvvv

    vvvv New Member

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    Wood is about 60% pyrogas, the rest of the heat comes from coals which not unlike coal prefer air from the grates below to dissolve them. How this is this resolved in the EUROPA? Grass pellets were a problem [silica clinkers] for the EUROPA last I heard.
  7. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    From what I know of how the stove works:
    When the stove is initially lit, you fill the burn tube with about 2 cups of pellets, pour the gel and light it. There are air holes under these pellets which will cause them to burn and create an ash bed. The ash bed remains active because of the air flow and as the fresh pellets hit this bed they burn (bake) to release the gas. The gasses are burn by introducing preheated air thru the holes about the ash bed.

    I hope I explained that correctly. We burned grass pellets for a while here and didnt have a clinker issue. What he did notice is burned up grass pellets which held their original pellet shape but were really fly (all energy removed from the pellet) They were either burning too fast, or the ash didnt have enough weight to apply pressure to the ash removal system. The pot would fill up with ash and very little would go thru to the ash pan. I was going to try the same experiment with some grass pellets from DJ, we just havent had the time to get together with him. I was going to try with the corn pot to see if the increased air would create some turbulence that would help the pellet ash go from pellet shaped, to the fly ash that it actually was.

    One of our dealers just sold one to Cornell up here and they will be running their own tests with the grass pellets and the Europa. They have a few other units in the lab they are trying this with, like the Quad AE. You know, those guys may be the guys that can help with the fuel usage dilema. They have the toys, time and money that I dont have. I may just have to pay them a visit and see if they can do some comparison.

    Blimp, did I answer the question about the pyrogas, etc? I'm not much of a tekkie
  8. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    Are there any forum member(s) in Frank`s vicinity? It`s just a little north of Syracuse NY.
  9. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    There`s a (former?) dealer in Schenectady which is closer to me that has one on display but not connected or running. Seems they bought it last year and want to sell it at cost , $3,500. The girl couldn`t say whether it was the old or new model.
    It didn`t sound like the Europa was much of a seller there but that in itself doesn`t mean anything other than I`d have to travel farther to see one running..
  10. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    Is it Adirondak Stoves? If so, they havent sold a stove since they took on the dealership. They may be looking to turn it into cash. Also, if it is them that is about their cost. The new dealers we set up last year averaged selling only 2-3 units. It's not an easy sell even for me as a person who is in love with the stove. Let me know if you end up going out there to see it.
  11. vvvv

    vvvv New Member

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    Sounds good. Cornell sounds even better.
  12. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    They should be getting their stove within a few weeks. I'll try to start an email dialogue with one of them there. I'll ask permission to post their findings on these forums.
  13. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    I wouldn`t go see it since it`s not operating.
  14. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    And then they wonder why they arent selling any that if it is Adirondack. Was that the place you called?
  15. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    Thats the place. The girl was very nice on the phone.
  16. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    I guess I'll need to be looking for another dealer in that area. Thanks for the info, Gio. I do hope you find yourself out this way some day. It would be good to meet you in person
  17. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    It`s possible. I probably go by or nearby to your shop when I go to Lake Ontario ( Mexico) fishing in the early summer and fall.
  18. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    yup, we're right on the way. Also, B&B Country stoves in Johnstown is one of our dealers, they sell and burn corn only, but they are great folks and they would probably give you a tour of their corn cleaning/drying operation
  19. mascoma

    mascoma Feeling the Heat

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    it seems to me that this claude character has to either be a full of BS or is the worse business man on the face of the planet.
    If the data was there to show 30% less fuel usage people would pay the price.
  20. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    I wish I could disagree! I suspect and hope it is the latter of the two. He is not much on the marketing end, but seems to know a lot about combustion. I just spoke to him again this morning about a side by side test, using the "street racing two cars" analogy. He seemed to get it then..seemed to. It always sounds like it is so obvious and clear in his mind that his 34K btu stove will heat the same as a 50K btu stove that any fool could see it, based on the test results. If thats the case, I'm a fool. He gets annoyed when he reads the threads I send to him, like he shouldnt have to prove himself.

    Well, as far as I'm concerned, PROVE that the stove uses less fuel in a public arena and he wont have to worry about marketing ever again. Document the testing on You Tube, let it go viral. If the stove does what I have seen it do, and what he claims it will do, he wouldnt be able to build them fast enough. Hell, he could sell the design to HTT or Lennox for 5-10 million and retire.

    Thats what frustrates the hell outa me.

    I used to think that he just may be happy making his 6 stoves per day..but then he told me this morning that he sold 100 stoves to a firm in France that was looking for ultimate efficiency in a free standing biomass stove, and they couldnt find anything in Europe. Heck, with this 100 stove order he may be less inclined to push the message here.

    Oh well, I'll keep looking for solutions and will be following up with the local university here after they get their stove.
  21. mascoma

    mascoma Feeling the Heat

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    Beware the order from China. They'll reverse engineer that thing and sell them thru HD for $49.99

    No Joke, I have seen an Italian made mechanical item about the size of a coffin that used to wholesale for about $3,000+ shipping to US, copied in china and LANDED in the us for less than $75.
  22. Fsappo

    Fsappo New Member

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    Ugg, yeah. I'll let him know that. Although, if they really wanted to get their hands on the technology, they could just order one from a local dealer and arrange to pick it up at his shop.
  23. lmjr

    lmjr Member

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    So...If I understand this Europa 75 was sold by originator for a while...then Sold to FPI for a while...then bought back by originator and still is owned by them now.

    So... Serial Numbers of 00001-xxxxx are good ones...S/N's of xxxx1-yyyy9 are FPI (Bad) and S/N's zzzz1-current are good ones again.

    So...other than S/N's, how do you spot a FPI?
  24. summit

    summit Minister of Fire

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    the dirty glass!! :lol:
  25. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    Another example:
    Most of the better accordions were generally made in Italy. Some Hohners made in Germany are an exception but Hohner now has many of their models produced in China , selling for 1/2 the price of the originals. And they are good sounding instruments. The Chinese quality is steadily improving and before long they will own that market too.

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