Inches away from buying a Alderlea T5 Insert - so what is the hold up? what would you do?

[cowtown]

Okay so I am about to buy a T5 Insert, but the following came up when I visited the dealer and talked about a the block off plate, insulating the liner, and a question about the install itself. Any advice on all or some of the items below would be great.

1. The installer indicated that he didn't want to put in a block off plate as he will seal the chimney cap air tight. I then suggest I could build the block off plate – the installer indicated that he would not install something that I built. I know that sealing the chimney cap air tight is not the same as a block off plate, but would an air tight chimney cap be an “okay†substitute�

2. The installer indicated that it was not necessary for the chimney liner to be insulated and would not do this – he even went on to suggest it was not to code here in Canada, would any of the Canadian readers know the answer to this?

3. The installer suggests that I bring in air from the existing “ash dump†to feed the insert which is okay by me (I know some on this forum are dead set against this, but I do not want to turn this into an outside/inside air debate, so if possible please refrain from suggesting I use inside air) – the thing is, I read in the Alderlea manual the following:

Outside air (O/A) supply: Remove cover from ash clean out in existing fireplace. Place a rodent screen in place of the cover. Install the Insert as described in the installation section, making sure not to cover the opening of the air inlet. When installation is complete, seal surround to fireplace and anywhere else air may enter. This will ensure combustion air is drawn from outside the house and into the 9†x 2†intake at the lower rear of the appliance.

The installer indicated that there is no need to seal the fireplace – anyone out there with a Pacific/Alderlea insert can tell me what they did in terms of
sealing the unit when using outside air?

Thank you everyone for all of your help. I know some comments will come back suggesting to go to another dealer or go with a different insert, but for a variety of reasons this is it up here in Calgary for me, buy the T5 insert from this guy and have him install it the way he wants to or get nothing.

4. What would you do, would you still get the insert even with the above stipulations?

Dan
PS. Sorry for such a long post.

 

[branchburner]

2. The installer indicated that it was not necessary for the chimney liner to be insulated and would not do this – he even went on to suggest it was not to code here in Canada, would any of the Canadian readers know the answer to this?

Sounds real fishy. I would talk to you local fire official, building inspector, insurance agent, etc. - but here is a thread (from a Canadian) that may help:

"Do I need a Code Compliant Chimney?

Most folks ask “Do I really need to insulate my liner?†The question could be better phrased “Do I really need a Code Compliant Chimney?†If you believe you do need your chimney to meet code, keep reading. Many masonry chimneys don’t meet building code requirements, as they were not built with the required one or two inch external air gap to combustibles that is required for wood fired appliances. I say one or two inch air gap because the gap required depends on many things, like whether you are in Canada or the USA, or whether the chimney is on an outside wall of the building or not.

This air gap keeps the heat that can occur during a chimney fire (2100*F flue gas temp) from damaging surrounding combustibles. In most cases, like when a chimney is built “inside†the walls of a home, the surrounding combustibles are the framing. In Canada, my internal masonry chimney, with it’s original clay liners, requires a two inch air gap external to the bricks from adjacent combustibles. That seems hard to construct, and even harder to confirm if you aren’t the one who built the home.
If the chimney was originally built for an oil fired appliance, it didn’t require an air gap given the lower temps it would experience. Lots of these chimneys are now being used for burning wood without folks realizing that they aren’t built for the temps they will experience.

So, unless you can confirm that your masonry chimney meets the code requirements of the area you are living in, you probably need to insulate your liner."
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/60132/

 

[BrowningBAR]

Okay so I am about to buy a T5 Insert, but the following came up when I visited the dealer and talked about a the block off plate, insulating the liner, and a question about the install itself. Any advice on all or some of the items below would be great.

1. The installer indicated that he didn't want to put in a block off plate as he will seal the chimney cap air tight. I then suggest I could build the block off plate – the installer indicated that he would not install something that I built. I know that sealing the chimney cap air tight is not the same as a block off plate, but would an air tight chimney cap be an “okay†substitute�

2. The installer indicated that it was not necessary for the chimney liner to be insulated and would not do this – he even went on to suggest it was not to code here in Canada, would any of the Canadian readers know the answer to this?

3. The installer suggests that I bring in air from the existing “ash dump†to feed the insert which is okay by me (I know some on this forum are dead set against this, but I do not want to turn this into an outside/inside air debate, so if possible please refrain from suggesting I use inside air) – the thing is, I read in the Alderlea manual the following:

Outside air (O/A) supply: Remove cover from ash clean out in existing fireplace. Place a rodent screen in place of the cover. Install the Insert as described in the installation section, making sure not to cover the opening of the air inlet. When installation is complete, seal surround to fireplace and anywhere else air may enter. This will ensure combustion air is drawn from outside the house and into the 9†x 2†intake at the lower rear of the appliance.

The installer indicated that there is no need to seal the fireplace – anyone out there with a Pacific/Alderlea insert can tell me what they did in terms of
sealing the unit when using outside air?

Thank you everyone for all of your help. I know some comments will come back suggesting to go to another dealer or go with a different insert, but for a variety of reasons this is it up here in Calgary for me, buy the T5 insert from this guy and have him install it the way he wants to or get nothing.

4. What would you do, would you still get the insert even with the above stipulations?

Dan
PS. Sorry for such a long post.

The insert is a solid product. The installer is another thing. I'll let others chime in with better details than I can provide.

 

[BrotherBart]

Is this installer WETT certified?

 

[cowtown]

2. The installer indicated that it was not necessary for the chimney liner to be insulated and would not do this – he even went on to suggest it was not to code here in Canada, would any of the Canadian readers know the answer to this?

Sounds real fishy. I would talk to you local fire official, building inspector, insurance agent, etc. - but here is a thread (from a Canadian) that may help:

"Do I need a Code Compliant Chimney?

Most folks ask “Do I really need to insulate my liner?†The question could be better phrased “Do I really need a Code Compliant Chimney?†If you believe you do need your chimney to meet code, keep reading. Many masonry chimneys don’t meet building code requirements, as they were not built with the required one or two inch external air gap to combustibles that is required for wood fired appliances. I say one or two inch air gap because the gap required depends on many things, like whether you are in Canada or the USA, or whether the chimney is on an outside wall of the building or not.

This air gap keeps the heat that can occur during a chimney fire (2100*F flue gas temp) from damaging surrounding combustibles. In most cases, like when a chimney is built “inside†the walls of a home, the surrounding combustibles are the framing. In Canada, my internal masonry chimney, with it’s original clay liners, requires a two inch air gap external to the bricks from adjacent combustibles. That seems hard to construct, and even harder to confirm if you aren’t the one who built the home.
If the chimney was originally built for an oil fired appliance, it didn’t require an air gap given the lower temps it would experience. Lots of these chimneys are now being used for burning wood without folks realizing that they aren’t built for the temps they will experience.

So, unless you can confirm that your masonry chimney meets the code requirements of the area you are living in, you probably need to insulate your liner."
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/60132/

Thanks for this, my installer is Wood Energy Technology Transfer (WETT) Certified, so I think I can trust what he does, what I am worried about is that I am not getting the most heat I can out of the insert.

The insert is to go into an existing masonry chimney that is used to burn wood. The chimney is located on the side of the house.

Thanks for this.

 

[cowtown]

Is this installer WETT certified?

Oh yea, he is WETT certified. Been doing this since 1979 (the year my house was built).

 

[cowtown]

Is this installer WETT certified?

Oh yea, he is WETT certified. Been doing this since 1979 (the year my house was built).

Just checked on the WETT website, he is there.

 

[northernontario]

Herein lies your problem... if your installer is WETT certified, and he's installing to the proper standards, and he's the one handing you a WETT inspection report to submit for your building permit/insurance agent... then you've gotta do what he says.

I'm not 100% sure on the actual building code with respect to insulating a chimney liner. The Ontario Building Code, when you reach the section on chimney installations, simply says "install as per CSA xxx.xxx specifications". The CSA guidelines are what the WETT inspector is inspecting to... so he should know. It might be the case where he has never insulated a liner before, has never installed a blockoff plate before, etc... if he's the WETT inspector, he's gotta know a thing or two about what he's doing, since you don't just become certified over night.

So... if he's installing and signing off on it all, I can understand why he wouldn't want to install anything you've fabbed up, or take your suggestions for 'improvements'. (Sort of like going to the dealership and asking them to install non-oem parts... which could potentially affect warrantee claims).

You might want to consider calling another local WETT inspector and asking their opinion... but remember these guys are busy and "time is money".

 

[cowtown]

Herein lies your problem... if your installer is WETT certified, and he's installing to the proper standards, and he's the one handing you a WETT inspection report to submit for your building permit/insurance agent... then you've gotta do what he says.

I'm not 100% sure on the actual building code with respect to insulating a chimney liner. The Ontario Building Code, when you reach the section on chimney installations, simply says "install as per CSA xxx.xxx specifications". The CSA guidelines are what the WETT inspector is inspecting to... so he should know. It might be the case where he has never insulated a liner before, has never installed a blockoff plate before, etc... if he's the WETT inspector, he's gotta know a thing or two about what he's doing, since you don't just become certified over night.

So... if he's installing and signing off on it all, I can understand why he wouldn't want to install anything you've fabbed up, or take your suggestions for 'improvements'. (Sort of like going to the dealership and asking them to install non-oem parts... which could potentially affect warrantee claims).

You might want to consider calling another local WETT inspector and asking their opinion... but remember these guys are busy and "time is money".

Yes, that is esentially it in a nutshell, he is teh WETT installer and he is signing off on it. So I guess it comes down to me and my decion if I want to go ahead with the project without the insulation and the block off plate. Thanks for this - you have made what was right in front of me very clear.

Dan

 

[branchburner]

To quote the guy I quoted before (Brent), he has had a lot to say about liners on this forum - of course this applied to HIS chimney in Nova Scotia, not YOURS, and maybe your WETT guy is correct - but his was not, and had to re-do the liner (second opinions never hurt):

"Why am I so blunt on the issue - just had mine installed and WETT certified guy didn’t insulate. Spoke to WETT Nova Scotia... the exact clearances may differ by region and product used, the principle is the same - insulation reduces clearances and adds a saftey margin. In the end, WETT NS agrees, my guy has to insulate the liner in order to meet the standards that code and WETT requires.

And if that isn’t enough, the National Fireplace Institute and the Chimney Saftey Institute of America made it #5 of their 6 Best practices for liner installs. Check out the link in my signature for the pamphlet - maybe give it to your installer - Maybe we all should print it and give it to our installers.

Hope that helps. You can read my other insulate liner rant here
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/24269/
and here
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23980/#257300

Signature
Brent O’Connor
Nova Scotia Canada"

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/26241/#275881

 

[cowtown]

To quote the guy I quoted before (Brent), he has had a lot to say about liners on this forum - of course this applied to HIS chimney in Nova Scotia, not YOURS, and maybe your WETT guy is correct - but his was not, and had to re-do the liner (second opinions never hurt):

"Why am I so blunt on the issue - just had mine installed and WETT certified guy didn’t insulate. Spoke to WETT Nova Scotia... the exact clearances may differ by region and product used, the principle is the same - insulation reduces clearances and adds a saftey margin. In the end, WETT NS agrees, my guy has to insulate the liner in order to meet the standards that code and WETT requires.

And if that isn’t enough, the National Fireplace Institute and the Chimney Saftey Institute of America made it #5 of their 6 Best practices for liner installs. Check out the link in my signature for the pamphlet - maybe give it to your installer - Maybe we all should print it and give it to our installers.

Hope that helps. You can read my other insulate liner rant here
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/24269/
and here
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23980/#257300

Signature
Brent O’Connor
Nova Scotia Canada"

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/26241/#275881

I am willing to pay for the insulation, but the guy won't do it. So it is down to a T5 without insulation or a keep the money in my pocket and live with a masonary fireplace.

I think I am going to spend the money. I told the store I would let them know monday - it will give me a couple nights to sleep on it.

 

[BrowningBAR]

To quote the guy I quoted before (Brent), he has had a lot to say about liners on this forum - of course this applied to HIS chimney in Nova Scotia, not YOURS, and maybe your WETT guy is correct - but his was not, and had to re-do the liner (second opinions never hurt):

"Why am I so blunt on the issue - just had mine installed and WETT certified guy didn’t insulate. Spoke to WETT Nova Scotia... the exact clearances may differ by region and product used, the principle is the same - insulation reduces clearances and adds a saftey margin. In the end, WETT NS agrees, my guy has to insulate the liner in order to meet the standards that code and WETT requires.

And if that isn’t enough, the National Fireplace Institute and the Chimney Saftey Institute of America made it #5 of their 6 Best practices for liner installs. Check out the link in my signature for the pamphlet - maybe give it to your installer - Maybe we all should print it and give it to our installers.

Hope that helps. You can read my other insulate liner rant here
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/24269/
and here
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23980/#257300

Signature
Brent O’Connor
Nova Scotia Canada"

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/26241/#275881

I am willing to pay for the insulation, but the guy won't do it. So it is down to a T5 without insulation or a keep the money in my pocket and live with a masonary fireplace.

I think I am going to spend the money. I told the store I would let them know monday - it will give me a couple nights to sleep on it.

Or option B; buy the stove and have it installed by another certified installer that has a brain in his head.

 

[cowtown]

To quote the guy I quoted before (Brent), he has had a lot to say about liners on this forum - of course this applied to HIS chimney in Nova Scotia, not YOURS, and maybe your WETT guy is correct - but his was not, and had to re-do the liner (second opinions never hurt):

"Why am I so blunt on the issue - just had mine installed and WETT certified guy didn’t insulate. Spoke to WETT Nova Scotia... the exact clearances may differ by region and product used, the principle is the same - insulation reduces clearances and adds a saftey margin. In the end, WETT NS agrees, my guy has to insulate the liner in order to meet the standards that code and WETT requires.

And if that isn’t enough, the National Fireplace Institute and the Chimney Saftey Institute of America made it #5 of their 6 Best practices for liner installs. Check out the link in my signature for the pamphlet - maybe give it to your installer - Maybe we all should print it and give it to our installers.

Hope that helps. You can read my other insulate liner rant here
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/24269/
and here
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23980/#257300

Signature
Brent O’Connor
Nova Scotia Canada"

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/26241/#275881

I am willing to pay for the insulation, but the guy won't do it. So it is down to a T5 without insulation or a keep the money in my pocket and live with a masonary fireplace.

I think I am going to spend the money. I told the store I would let them know monday - it will give me a couple nights to sleep on it.

Or option B; buy the stove and have it installed by another certified installer that has a brain in his head.

Another option yes, I will see how I feel about the situation tomorrow.

 

[branchburner]

I am willing to pay for the insulation, but the guy won't do it. So it is down to a T5 without insulation or a keep the money in my pocket and live with a masonary fireplace.

I think I am going to spend the money. I told the store I would let them know monday - it will give me a couple nights to sleep on it.

Well, I was thinking get the second opinion (maybe directly from WETT?) and if it conflicts with your guy, let him know. If it doesn't conflict, all set.

But honestly, tons and tons of people burn safely and successfully without blockoff or insulation, so I wouldn't sWETT it. Just seemed weird that insulation could KEEP you from meeting code when it's normally the other way around.

 

[cowtown]

I am willing to pay for the insulation, but the guy won't do it. So it is down to a T5 without insulation or a keep the money in my pocket and live with a masonary fireplace.

I think I am going to spend the money. I told the store I would let them know monday - it will give me a couple nights to sleep on it.

Well, I was thinking get the second opinion (maybe directly from WETT?) and if it conflicts with your guy, let him know. If it doesn't conflict, all set.

But honestly, tons and tons of people burn safely and successfully without blockoff or insulation, so I wouldn't sWETT it. Just seemed weird that insulation could KEEP you from meeting code when it's normally the other way around.

Yea, this is my thinking as well - I am sure a few years back, insulating a liner was not that common, are people not burning their inserts now because they don't have an insulated liner, I doubt it. I tell ya, before the internet, I would have bought this thing already as I wouldn't have known all the information that I have got from this site

Second opinion rom WETT, now that is a good idea.

Thanks.

 

[ddddddden]

An exterior chimney is a heat loser. Brick has an R value ~ 1. The theory is that even if the top of the chimney is sealed, warm air will go into that space and lose heat through the brick. Maybe it's the placebo effect, but every thread I've seen posted by someone who installed a stove w/o a block off plate and then added it later said that it made their house warmer. This guy may be certified, and he may be correct in saying that the stove/chimney will function fine without a block off, but the purpose of the stove is to heat your home. The consensus here is that a block off helps to keep the heat inside your home...kind of like closing off unused rooms does, without which the stove would also work fine. IMO, he has no reason to tell you not to block off the unused masonry space, other than being lazy. In a city the size of Calgary, there must be other qualified installers. I would find one willing to do the job the way I wanted it done. If I wanted a half-assed, lazy install, I'd do it myself.

 

[ddddddden]

As a thought experiment, let's suppose that you didn't vent your new stove through the masonry chimney, but installed a class-A chimney pipe up through the roof instead. What would you do with the unused masonry chimney space? Seal it at the top? Seal it at the bottom? Both? p.s. If you go with an independant installer, you will be free to buy any stove you want, possibly including a T5 at a better price.

 

[cowtown]

An exterior chimney is a heat loser. Brick has an R value ~ 1. The theory is that even if the top of the chimney is sealed, warm air will go into that space and lose heat through the brick. Maybe it's the placebo effect, but every thread I've seen posted by someone who installed a stove w/o a block off plate and then added it later said that it made their house warmer. This guy may be certified, and he may be correct in saying that the stove/chimney will function fine without a block off, but the purpose of the stove is to heat your home. The consensus here is that a block off helps to keep the heat inside your home...kind of like closing off unused rooms does, without which the stove would also work fine. IMO, he has no reason to tell you not to block off the unused masonry space, other than being lazy. In a city the size of Calgary, there must be other qualified installers. I would find one willing to do the job the way I wanted it done. If I wanted a half-assed, lazy install, I'd do it myself.

Yes, thanks for this. The idea of getting the stove from party A then having it installed by party B always makes me a bit nervous. First off there are only two dealers that sell the T5 here in Calgary (I know I could go with a different insert, but with the T5 I won't need a mantle shield).

The problem is where to I buy it. Canada is not like the US where competition forces retailers to deliver top noch service/prices. An example of this is that I actually flew down to the U.S. to by my car and drove it back because of the big price difference.

I am scared that I will have no one to turn to if something were to go wrong with the insert. The guy I bought it from would say the problem is with the install and the installer would say that the problem lies with the insert.

 

[cowtown]

As a thought experiment, let's suppose that you didn't vent your new stove through the masonry chimney, but installed a class-A chimney pipe up through the roof instead. What would you do with the unused masonry chimney space? Seal it at the top? Seal it at the bottom? Both? p.s. If you go with an independant installer, you will be free to buy any stove you want, possibly including a T5 at a better price.

I would seal both place - I know, then you will say "well why not seal both places now", I know, I know.

Better prices, again, if I lived the US this would not be an issue. Canada is a different kettle of fish in terms of pricing. (another example, I went to buy some wallpaper, up here in canada it is $85/roll, I ordered from the US at $32/roll - I bought 18 rolls, so yea, even with teh $120 for shipping I come out miles ahead).

 

[ddddddden]

AFAIK, you can ship in a stove, just like you did with the wallpaper. As for stove warranty issues possibly related to installation. . .other than clearance to combustibles, the only installation requirements most mfrs have are a chimney diameter and minimum height. If you have the specified chimney, say 6" diameter and 15'+ high, there isn't much that they could say about your installation affecting the performance of the stove. I would focus on finding an installer who will do the job the way that you are willing to pay to have it done, or DIY. . .dropping a 20-lb flexible liner pipe down a chimney is not that hard, especially if there is no insulation nor block off plate involved.

 

[cowtown]

AFAIK, you can ship in a stove, just like you did with the wallpaper. As for stove warranty issues possibly related to installation. . .other than clearance to combustibles, the only installation requirements most mfrs have are a chimney diameter and minimum height. If you have the specified chimney, say 6" diameter and 15'+ high, there isn't much that they could say about your installation affecting the performance of the stove. I would focus on finding an installer who will do the job the way that you are willing to pay to have it done, or DIY. . .dropping a 20-lb flexible liner pipe down a chimney is not that hard, especially if there is no insulation nor block off plate involved.

I thought about getting the unit from the U.S at a lower price but it appears that the difference is not worth it.

I have contacted WETT and another dealer to see if I should have insulation on the liner. Not sure if this makes a difference, but my liner is not flexible, but rigid (my guy says it is better as less build up).

 

[ddddddden]

Yes, rigid liner is more beefy than flex liner, and theoretically gives better draft because the walls are smooth. As for creosote build up, I would say that the warmer liner is going to be the one with less build up, which is the result of warm smoke forming condensation on cooler pipe. . .and which pipe is going to stay warmer? The insulated pipe. OTOH, there is also the argument that not installing a block off plate would keep the pipe warmer, but that's not the intelligent approach, IMO. I don't know anything about Canadian code, but I *think* I've read that Canadians have to use flex liners in masonry chimneys because code does not allow any hidden pipe joints, which could fail unseen, and a rigid liner would have several joints.

 

[ddddddden]

Regarding US/CAN pricing, I think Blaze Kings may be cheaper in Canada than in the eastern US. Have you looked at the Blaze King Princess insert? I dunno if it would fit into your fireplace or need a mantle shield, but it's worth a look, IMO. ~ 50% larger than the T5 and will burn forever + 1 day on a load of wood.

 

[cowtown]

Regarding US/CAN pricing, I think Blaze Kings may be cheaper in Canada than in the eastern US. Have you looked at the Blaze King Princess insert? I dunno if it would fit into your fireplace or need a mantle shield, but it's worth a look, IMO. ~ 50% larger than the T5 and will burn forever + 1 day on a load of wood.

This site is becoming addicting - I will look into it right now.

Thanks.

 

[cowtown]

Regarding US/CAN pricing, I think Blaze Kings may be cheaper in Canada than in the eastern US. Have you looked at the Blaze King Princess insert? I dunno if it would fit into your fireplace or need a mantle shield, but it's worth a look, IMO. ~ 50% larger than the T5 and will burn forever + 1 day on a load of wood.

This site is becoming addicting - I will look into it right now.

Thanks.

Just looked - not enough clearance. Thanks though