Insert for small, Victorian fireplace

[udris]

This is a post that began in another thread but it was suggested I start a new thread rather than piggy-back on someone elses.

I am new to the community but have been reading with great interest for many months.

I am in the market for a wood burning insert for a small Victorian fireplace in Providence. (see photo 1)

(12” deep, 35 1/4” wide at the front, 28 1/2” wide at the back, 29 3/4” high at the front, 35 1/2” high from hearth tile to mantle trim)

1. The only wood burning inserts I can find that work with this depth are the Dutchwest 2500X01 and the Century EPA CJW2500X02, both from Vermont Castings. Any others that could work with a 12" deep firebox?
I went to a local dealer and he said that, in fact, Vermont Castings doesn't make either one of these and that they are now made by some company in Canada.

2. The chimneys are in poor shape, original to the 1889 house, mortar in the attic is like butter after years of water leaks. I assume i’ll need a liner and that I will need to do some repointing and repairs where I can in the attic and above the roofline. There are 2 unused flues, both 8"x8" square, brick only, no tiles. From what I have read, I don't think I can fit a 6" insulated liner in the flue as the outside dimensions of these are at least 8". Will an uninsulated stainless chimney pipe suffice given the relativley poor condition of the chimney? It is an interior chimney.

3. Photo 2 shows the interior top of the fireplace, I guess it’s called the damper, with a handle that slides sideways to open the rectangular holes.
The metal measures 8” from front to back so I think it could accommodate a 6” chimney, but it seems like this thing is cast iron/heavy/solid, like we’re going to need an oxy-acetylene torch to cut a hole in it. Any one seen this predicament before?

Your input is greatly appreciated, and any RI folks out there who have local installer connections/suggestions/dealers would be helpful.

 

[jqgs214]

From my experience and speaking only from my experience I cannot reccommend that insert. To keep a long story short it had a weld crack in a major support.

 

[udris]

I had read this in other posts as well but some had indicated it was a fluke of sorts. Any other manufacturers that might work instead of VC?

 

[philaphire]

Have you checked out the Lopi Revere and the Avalon RAiner with the 45 degree flue? Both are designed to sit out on the hearth some (about 10 inches) and therefore only go into the fireplace about 10 inches. You will probably have hearth issues, but many folks on here have extended their hearths.

HOWEVER, before that you will NEED to run an insulated liner since you have an unlined chimney. I don't know enough about this so I will defer to the experts, but you are probably going to have to look into whether you can go with a 5.5 inch liner plus insulation.

 

[senorFrog]

Have you considered a woodstove, instead of an insert?

This stove would most likely be too big, but this is what I mean...

http://www.jotul.us/content/products/ProductArticle____3108.aspx

Re the insulated or uninsulated liner, if you know you have chimney problems with the motar, etc, especially in a historic house, then don't take a chance.

 

[Gooserider]

Definitely you will need an insulated liner of some sort, or possibly insulated straight pipe (as opposed to flex) Another option that MIGHT work, but would definitely need further research, is to get one of the "poured in place" type cement liners - essentially they stuff a "balloon form" down the chimney and poor a special insulated cement mix around it. The result claims to be lifetime guaranteed, and solve all sorts of problems with chimneys in poor condition, but I don't know if it would be appropriate for your situation. Just something to look into.

Before doing chimney repairs, I would consult a mason with experience in doing proper historical masonry repair. I don't know the details, but I know that there have been different formulations of bricks and mortar used over the years, and doing repairs with the wrong stuff can actually cause even worse damage in the future.

Gooserider

 

[udris]

I have done some re-pointing on old brick in this house and learned that the mortar mixture has to have different proportions, namely a higher sand content (modern mortar mixes will crack old brick). I am having a restoration mason come by to look at the job and at least get some answers on the chimney part of this.

As for the insert, it seems that the smallest ones are all plate steel as opposed to cast iron. This could explain WXMAN"s post about weld cracks.
Are there cast iron options? If an option is only slightly too deep for my firebox can the faceplate be shimmed out a little bit from the tile face or is this dangerous?

Thanks so far for your responses.

 

[senorFrog]

That's such a lovely hearth and mantle. I'm not sure if you'd have to tear any of it out with an insert for clearances. That would be a shame. Are you sure a small woodstove wouldn't work? I might fit in there nicely, look smart, provide heat and preserve the historic value. This jotul woodstove may fit...

http://www.jotul.us/content/products/ProductArticle____3091.aspx

I wouldn't shy away from steel. You'd be eliminating many good stoves from the shortlist. Inserts are mostly steel because they sit in the fireplace and have electric blowers on them to move the heat into the room. Stoves are both steel and cast iron, but usually do not have blowers because they radiate the heat into the room. There is a third option which is soapstone too. You can search on the pros and cons of each.

Best advice to make consolidated list of manufacturers from the review section and start google-ing for the diff webpages...

https://www.hearth.com/ratings/search.php

Web/Mods: Maybe we need a sticky with ALL the manufacturers and their webpage? (My apologies if one already exists).

 

[udris]

Gooserider and Senorfrog, thanks for the suggestion on the Jotul instead of the insert. I've been looking into both options and have narrowed it down to 2 possibilities.

Picture 1 shows the Jotul option (F100 is about all I think I could fit).
This, as you have suggested, would look great and preserve much of the historic look of the fireplace. There are a few clearance issues however.
1. Jotul defines trim as 1" or less. My first edge of trim is about 2.5". From the top of the unit they require 17" to an unprotected surface. I only have 13". From the side of the unit they require 14". I only have 12.5". Again, these are to a 2.5" edge of trim, not 1". Also, I could probably meet the 16" front floor clearance measurement if I backed the stove up all the way into the firebox. Is that okay or am I radiating a lot of heat up the chimney?

Picture 2 shows the Dutchwest insert option.
I measured everything and it would fit within all clearances including maybe not having to extend the hearth in front at all. I could even have a metal shop trim the faceplate/surround to get it to match up perfectly with the edge of the tiles.

Finally, the remaining issue is simply a side by side comparison of the 2 units:
Dutchwest (I still can't really figure out who makes this), 9,600-58,000 max Btu, 1.3 cu. ft. firebox, 64% efficiency, 20" logs, not easy to find for sale.
Jotul (very respected brand) 35,000 max Btu, firebox volume?, 71% efficiency, 16" logs, easy to find new and lightly used on Craigslist.

thanks again for your input

 

[titan]

Udris, based solely on aesthetics, I'd go with the Jotul-it appears in keeping with the Victorian theme.The stove is just a better fit to me,'cause you'd want a blower in that insert and a power cord runnin' across that antique hearth ain't gonna look right IMO.

 

[udris]

A quick note on the Jotul clearances. The measurements I noted are to "unprotected surfaces", namely my 2.5" thick 1st edge of trim.
If there were some way to make this edge a "protected surface" I would be okay with the measurements (I could perhaps have a local metal shop fabricate a decorative metal edge that was insulated with asbestos/rock wool or something like that). Any idea what kind of edge would have to be made to comply with NFPA 211?
Are there accessories already available, as Jotul suggests, that would permit clearance reductions?

 

[senorFrog]

No code expert here for sure. Just an end user who went through this process last year when replacing a old wood stove. Technically going on my fourth year burning, but only my second with a 24x7, EPA stove.

Elk or someone can fill you in on that. But with the stove option, assuming it is recessed in the hearth which is a protected surface, coulnd't you go with something larger with say like 3CB? There must be other stoves out there that would fit.

I think you're next step would be to go to a few local stores and see the products in person, talk to some folks re the clearances. Maybe even have a few dealers come out and measure, make a code compliant recommendation based on the measurements and provide a quote. Go to a few different dealers because there are def good ones and bad ones. Here's a place not too far from PVD (not sure if they're any good or not):

http://www.thefireplaceshowcase.com/index.htm

Sorry if you mentioned it already, but are you looking for this to be a primary heat ource, a supplemental heat source or just for nightly/occasional ambiance?

That tile is so lovely I'd be concerned that an inserts face plate would somehow scratch, chip or scorch it.

PS - They have short leg kits which can drop the height of the stove. There are heat shields which reduce the clearances. But again, I'm not sure what the clearance requirements are for a protected surface.

 

[Gooserider]

I'd go the opposite direction - I like the looks of the Dutchwest insert (Made by Vermont Castings BTW) better. I also think inserts are a better solution if wanting to put something inside a fireplace. (stoves are great in front of a fireplace but IMHO loose to much radiant energy to the surrounding masonry when placed in the firebox.

The other issue is that AFAIK there is no way to protect that trim for clearances that wouldn't really look tacky and ruin that beautiful hearth. OTOH, one could probably do a custom surround on the VC insert that would fit just inside the fireplace opening, thus minimizing the alterations.

Gooserider

 

[wg_bent]

Have you considered a woodstove, instead of an insert?

This stove would most likely be too big, but this is what I mean...

http://www.jotul.us/content/products/ProductArticle____3108.aspx

Re the insulated or uninsulated liner, if you know you have chimney problems with the motar, etc, especially in a historic house, then don't take a chance.

I was going to suggest a Hearthstone Heritage hearth mount. The Heritage is a wood stove designed to sit in front of a fireplace on the hearth. The pipe comes directly out the back and through the "surround" then into a T. The liner would mount to the T and up the chimney.

That's what I'd do. The Heritage is a nice victorian looking stove that would work nicely if you get the right color.

 

[senorFrog]

[quote author="Warren" date="1190432680]I was going to suggest a Hearthstone Heritage hearth mount. The Heritage is a wood stove designed to sit in front of a fireplace on the hearth. The pipe comes directly out the back and through the "surround" then into a T. The liner would mount to the T and up the chimney.

That's what I'd do. The Heritage is a nice victorian looking stove that would work nicely if you get the right color.[/quote]

Oh, yeh! If you go with the Brown Majolica Enamel it might match your tile and mantle perfectly! Soapstone too! Good call!

 

[BrotherBart]

Lots of good choices for a hearth mounted stove and with a block-off plate the heat will be going out into the room. That beast upstairs has proved that. If that picture is to scale the Jotul F3 CB with short legs added will fit it fine. And the heat that goes into the masonry plays the soapstone game pretty good too.

 

[BrotherBart]

OK, I'm back. Those clearances they talk about are to combustible surfaces. That trim and the sides don't look combustible to me. What is the nice looking shiny stuff on the front of the fireplace? I bet whatever it is won't burn. As to side and back clearances those bricks in the fireplace aren't combustible lately.

 

[Gooserider]

OK, I'm back. Those clearances they talk about are to combustible surfaces. That trim and the sides don't look combustible to me. What is the nice looking shiny stuff on the front of the fireplace? I bet whatever it is won't burn. As to side and back clearances those bricks in the fireplace aren't combustible lately.

I don't know - there is the metallic looking stuff, but the dark brown trim around that looks like wood to me - last time I tossed a bunch of wood in my stove it combusted pretty good

Gooserider

 

[BrotherBart]

OK, I'm back. Those clearances they talk about are to combustible surfaces. That trim and the sides don't look combustible to me. What is the nice looking shiny stuff on the front of the fireplace? I bet whatever it is won't burn. As to side and back clearances those bricks in the fireplace aren't combustible lately.

I don't know - there is the metallic looking stuff, but the dark brown trim around that looks like wood to me - last time I tossed a bunch of wood in my stove it combusted pretty good

Gooserider

Yeah but that wood is farther than the 2.5" "edge of trim" in the post. And placed back in that fireplace the only thing above that stove is going to be the block-off plate and the pipe.

That F3 sitting across the room from me is only 15 inches deep. And I see a four 4 inch brick deep fireplace there.

 

[Gooserider]

OK, I'm back. Those clearances they talk about are to combustible surfaces. That trim and the sides don't look combustible to me. What is the nice looking shiny stuff on the front of the fireplace? I bet whatever it is won't burn. As to side and back clearances those bricks in the fireplace aren't combustible lately.

I don't know - there is the metallic looking stuff, but the dark brown trim around that looks like wood to me - last time I tossed a bunch of wood in my stove it combusted pretty good

Gooserider

Yeah but that wood is farther than the 2.5" "edge of trim" in the post. And placed back in that fireplace the only thing above that stove is going to be the block-off plate and the pipe.

That F3 sitting across the room from me is only 15 inches deep. And I see a four 4 inch brick deep fireplace there.

Well getting measurements off pictures is tricky at best, but it looks to me like the metallic looking stuff might be tiles, and measuring on the screen, it looks like they are only 2/3 to 3/4 the length of the bricks in the firebox wide, which would translate to about 6" from the edge of the opening to the wood trim. That is going to be a squeeze on the CTC numbers for anything that sticks out of the firebox, and possibly anything in it. Getting depth is even harder, but I thought the 2.5" reference was how far the trim stuck out past the face of the fireplace, not how far away it is - for some units both dimensions are critical.

Perhaps the OP will post another version of the picture with the dimensions sketched in???

Gooserider

 

[udris]

Maybe these measurements will clear a few things up (see attached picture).
The 2.5" trim measurement is indeed how far it sticks out past the face of the fireplace (ie. thickness, profile). This I think will present a problem
for clearances for anything that sticks out past the face of the tiles. Given my 13"D firebox, that limits my stove options to the smallest (Jotul F100 @ 13.5"D) or the Dutchwest insert.


As to SenorFrog's question about use, I will be using this as a supplemental heat source. These big Victorian's take a lot to heat and there's a lot of free wood around here. I'd like to take a bite out of my heating bill.

 

[Todd]

Another suggestion for ya, the Hearthstone Homestead with rear heat shield would look nice. I think that stove is made for that kind of install. If you go with a hearth stove you will definitely need a block off plate and rear heat shield to reflect the heat into the room.

 

[senorFrog]

Udris, this is what they're talking about. It is soapstone which is real nice. Also, notice how well the brown finish will tie in with your tiles & mantle...

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wood_stoves/homestead/

Do some research on soapstone. It def has a following.

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that the only two brands out there are Jotul and VC. There are many, many other good brands. IMO, the Jotul you;re looking at i way to small for a serious secondary or primary heat source. Im not real familiar with the VC line.

FYI - The numbers in all the manufacturers books are grossly overinflated. I.e. BTU, Burn Time, Square footage, etc.

 

[BrotherBart]

But the Heritage is 19" deep. Without the heat shield.

I don't own any Jotul stock and don't care if they sell a stove, but watch out for those dimensions on the web site. I don't care what the picture shows that F100 sitting six feet from me is 14 1/4" from the front of the top plate to the rear of the standard heat shield. Not 13 1/4" as shown in their picture. The F3 CB sitting 150 feet away in the warehouse is 14 1/2" from the center front of the top plate to the back of the standard rear heat shield. And with the short leg kit the F3 would be 25 1/2" high. So there is 1/4" of difference in the depth of the two stoves when they are dressed for work.

What I am saying is go down to Mack's House of Jotul and get the real dimensions of both stoves before you give up on the extra capacity and heat holding mass of the F3.

 

[senorFrog]

This Pacific Energy insert might work for you and put out the kind of heat you desire...

Website..
http://www.pacificenergy.net/product_insert_pacific.php

Nice diagram re the clearances...
http://www.pacificenergy.net/PDF/manuals/PACINSD1 270706-20.pdf

They are top notch brand, every bit as good as Jotul or VC and highly respected here.