Insert vs. outdoor gasifier

[DeepSpringFarm]

Hello all, I'm new around here. I appreciate all you experienced ones that help out new people and take the time to answer questions.
I live in southwest Virginia in the mountains. I have a 3500 sq foot house with a geothermal heat pump. I live on a farm with plenty of wood for use. Not well insulated but working on upgrading this slowly with spray insulation (attic & basement). Home does not have a very open floor plan. We love to have a fire going in our fireplace but hate to leave the damper open all night after a burn (one of those ones on top that completely seals off the chimney) I was up there installing it in 60 degree weather and couldn't believe the heat that just flew out of our house. Also, with our geothermal I keep the temps low and I am pretty cold all winter. We then started considering a insert or a outdoor gasifier (a free standing stove would not look good with our hearth).
We are worried that an outdoor gasifier might be too much of a commitment and also more expensive, but it seems silly to get an expensive insert and then get an outdoor furnace. We want the most traditional look with our fireplace with a large viewing area.
What we are considering is Lopi Large wood flush Hybrid Fyre or Hearthstone Clydesdale. They also carry Vermont Castings & Pacific Energy.
Thoughts on this? Should I consider my own install (two story house with chimney backed up to garage) and if not should I just go with the materials they provide for install or can I get much better online? Insulated liner? Also, is there anyway to remotely mount the blower so that it could be quieter? I'm afraid that if it isn't too quiet we may burn the stove without the blower, is this a problem except for not getting as much heat?

 

[bholler]

Should I consider my own install (two story house with chimney backed up to garage)

if you are comfortable with it most installs are not very complicated.

should I just go with the materials they provide for install or can I get much better online?

No idea what they are providing so cant answer that

Insulated liner?

Absolutly

is there anyway to remotely mount the blower so that it could be quieter?

no

I'm afraid that if it isn't too quiet we may burn the stove without the blower, is this a problem except for not getting as much heat?

No they are safe to burn with the blower off but they will not put out anywhere near the heat with it off

 

[Grisu]

Welcome to the forum!

Since you seem to enjoy the view of a burning fire an insert is probably a good idea. However, your layout could pose a problem. Can you post a rough sketch of your floorplan with the fireplace in it? There are tricks to get the heat moving to other places of the house. Plus a pic and dimensions of the fireplace would be helpful. What kind of budget do you have in mind? Both inserts you mentioned are in the upper range in insert prices.

If you are handy and not afraid of heights you can do the install yourself. A straight chimney without obstructions inside helps. How are its inner dimensions? Have a sweep clean it well first and an inspection will not hurt. Insulated liner will be much better and may even be required if outside clearances of the chimney are insufficient. Installing a block-off plate is also highly recommended:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ It sounds like the back of the fireplace is going out to the (unconditioned?) garage. If there is enough room you could insulate around the insert: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/

You can burn in the insert without running the blower. Some inserts convect heat round it better than others. However, you may lose a bit more heat up the flue and you need to make sure to not overfire the insert. From the insert brands you mentioned I would also take a look at the PE Summit. It is a strong heater, well-liked here, and PE inserts usually convect well around the firebox. If you can fit an insulated 8" liner down the flue, a KUMA Sequoia would be another good option if you can get the heat to travel through the house.

One big difference to your fireplace: Any modern insert requires dry wood with less than 20% internal moisture. That means you need to season it split and stacked in a sunny and windy spot for one to three years (depending on the wood species). Without dry wood you will have a hard time to get a good burn going this winter.

 

[DeepSpringFarm]

Welcome to the forum!

Since you seem to enjoy the view of a burning fire an insert is probably a good idea. However, your layout could pose a problem. Can you post a rough sketch of your floorplan with the fireplace in it? There are tricks to get the heat moving to other places of the house. Plus a pic and dimensions of the fireplace would be helpful. What kind of budget do you have in mind? Both inserts you mentioned are in the upper range in insert prices.

Don't really have a way of doing pics right now. Fireplace dimensions: Front 42" X 30" tapers to 27" width in back. Depth of 26" . I also have 2 air tubes that hold the iron grate for wood burning that need to be cut out. These ran air through there when burning a fire to warm the room. Budget is not a massive concern. I would rather get something that looked good and worked well even if that did cost a bit more. I was aware that this project may cost up to about 6K (obviously I'd rather spend less). Room layout is a reasonably large great room which is includes the kitchen on the opposite side of the fireplace. The rest of the house is on the other side of the kitchen and up to a second story that covers everything.

If you are handy and not afraid of heights you can do the install yourself. A straight chimney without obstructions inside helps. How are its inner dimensions? Have a sweep clean it well first and an inspection will not hurt. Insulated liner will be much better and may even be required if outside clearances of the chimney are insufficient. Installing a block-off plate is also highly recommended:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ It sounds like the back of the fireplace is going out to the (unconditioned?) garage. If there is enough room you could insulate around the insert: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/

Chimney has a slight step right above firebox and then straight up (sort of angles back and then up). I have no way of measuring the interior dimensions at this time but from what I can see maybe about 12 inches square. I talked to my dealer and he said that the third party they use did not typically use an insulated liner. He seemed to think it was unnecessary and not any safer, but he said that they would put it in, just extra cost. There is an old metal damper right above the firebox that looks like it shouldn't be too hard to remove. Yes, unconditioned garage, however it has insulated doors/windows if that helps a bit.

You can burn in the insert without running the blower. Some inserts convect heat round it better than others. However, you may lose a bit more heat up the flue and you need to make sure to not overfire the insert. From the insert brands you mentioned I would also take a look at the PE Summit. It is a strong heater, well-liked here, and PE inserts usually convect well around the firebox. If you can fit an insulated 8" liner down the flue, a KUMA Sequoia would be another good option if you can get the heat to travel through the house.

I think we weren't looking at these at first because we wanted the large viewing area and also didn't want a unit that stuck out on the hearth. We have reconsidered and find it acceptable to come out a bit, but not extremely far.

 

[DeepSpringFarm]

When I talked with the dealer today I was asking about 3 inserts
Hearthstone Clydesdale, Lopi Large Hybrid Frye and Lopi Freedom Bay (although I just noticed that they "bay windows" are actually just vents and not glass) All were between 3-4 thousand dollars.
Clydesdale and Freedom Bay are more of a standard burn and the Hybrid Frye has the new "hybrid" burn. Dealer didn't seem to think it made much of a difference in amount of wood burned or maintenance.
Do you guys have any thoughts on this?
I will look into Pacific Energy, but it doesn't look like they carry Kuma.
Also I asked what liners they sold, Simpson, Duravent and ROH(?)

Thanks a ton!

 

[bholler]

Simpson and duravent are the same thing no idea what roh is

 

[Grisu]

Be aware that a flush insert is usually more reliant on a blower than one that protrudes into the room. Without an ash lip they are also prone to suck ash into the blower and blow it out from the top.

The closest Kuma dealer for you seems to be in Charlotteville. I mentioned it because it is more traditional looking and convects well without blower. It is also a really large insert that could potentially heat most of your home. One insert that is more flush and traditional but smaller would be the Enviro Cabello 1700. They have several dealers in Virginia; one is in Norfolk for example. Enviro stoves are very well regarded here. Another more traditional flush insert would be the Hampton HI400 from Regency. That is a newer insert that got some mixed reviews so far (it is the twin of the Regency CI2600 if you want to try a forum search). Regency is working to improve it and the new units may work better. Take also a look at the fireboxes of the Hampton and Lopi Hybrid-Fyre. Their angled sides can make it difficult to load them really full.

With your lintel height you could also put a Hearthstone Manchester stove in front of the fireplace if your hearth has enough depth. That won't require a blower then and will also work better during a power outage.

A 12x12 flue with a slight offset should not be a problem even with an 8" insulated liner. Unfortunately, most stove shops don't really offer to use an insulated liner but it gives added safety during a chimney fire and will draft better due to the higher flue temps. Over the lifespan of liner and insert the few hundred more are actually not that much.

The "hybrid" technology is supposed to clean up the exhaust, to offer some efficiency gain and to extend burn times. The Woodstock stove company uses that technology successfully and their stoves get burn times on a low air setting that you cannot really get with a secondary burn stove. I have yet to hear that Lopi and Regency stoves are equally good at that. You will probably see less creosote in the flue with either hybrid. However, the cat will need an occasional replacement (about every 5 to 8 years seems to be the consensus), you need to be careful to not burn any chemically treated wood, and check regularly your door gaskets for a good seal.

 

[bholler]

The Woodstock stove company uses that technology successfully and their stoves get burn times on a low air setting that you cannot really get with a secondary burn stove. I have yet to hear that Lopi and Regency stoves are equally good at that.

Cant comment on the lopi but the regency after their initial problems seems to be working pretty well. They put in a restrictor plate to allow you to shut the air down more.

 

[DeepSpringFarm]

Ok, now I have shifted my interest to the Kuma Sequoia. Does anyone know how far these extend onto the hearth and what the glass viewing area is. I can't seem to find these on their website. I am also interested in the "natural convection". Their youtube video looks fairly impressive even though it is just paper that is blowing.

 

[Grisu]

The door glass is 10" by 14.75". Here is the manual: https://kumastorage.blob.core.windows.net/content/images/PDF Manuals/SEQUOIA.pdf
I could not find how far it sticks out onto the hearth. Calculating from the minimum depth of the fireplace and the depth of the insert, it looks like 7" but maybe it is variable. Their phone support is really good according to reports here.

Do you think you can get the heat out of the room with the fireplace? Otherwise, it well get pretty hot there.

 

[DeepSpringFarm]

I think I could get the heat out. I was thinking that maybe not getting a blower and using the natural convection to reduce the heat in the room, and maybe just doing a low burn. Maybe keeping the fan on our HVAC on to help circulate heat throughout the house.

 

[velvetfoot]

A fan is needed with an insert. If you can't get used to one, it might not be for you.

 

[Grisu]

A fan is needed with an insert.

I would certainly not put it that strongly. A fan can help but it is not that an insert won't heat without it. It all depends on a proper installation. Put block-off plate with insulation above and insulate around the insert if the fireplace is at an exterior wall and the difference in heat output to a stove will be minimal. However, you may need to get used to the fact that the masonry around the insert will take up some of the heat first before releasing it into the room later. I regularly turn off the blower on my insert after the peak burn and let the natural convection move the heat. You have to be a bit more careful about not to overfire the insert. Thus, I would certainly recommend to have the blower installed even if it will only be used during an emergency (temps > 800 F).

I think I could get the heat out. I was thinking that maybe not getting a blower and using the natural convection to reduce the heat in the room, and maybe just doing a low burn.

Not having the blower won't reduce the heat output of the insert by much, unless you count on losing more heat up the flue. Not sure if that is your intention. Using the HVAC system gets mixed reviews here but is certainly worth a try. What usually works well is placing a small desk fan on the ground in the area you want the heat to move to. It should have a clear line of sight to the stove room. Set the fan on low to blow cold air along the floor towards the stove room. Warm air will be drawn to the fan's location to make up for the displaced cold air.

 

[bholler]

I would certainly not put it that strongly. A fan can help but it is not that an insert won't heat without it. It all depends on a proper installation. Put block-off plate with insulation above and insulate around the insert if the fireplace is at an exterior wall and the difference in heat output to a stove will be minimal. However, you may need to get used to the fact that the masonry around the insert will take up some of the heat first before releasing it into the room later. I regularly turn off the blower on my insert after the peak burn and let the natural convection move the heat. You have to be a bit more careful about not to overfire the insert. Thus, I would certainly recommend to have the blower installed even if it will only be used during an emergency (temps > 800 F).

I agree totally