Insert vs. wood stove. What will fit/work the best?

[uwtriguy]

Last spring my wife and I bought an old house built in 1892 that has been gutted and refinished. It has an old coal burning fireplace that isn't safe to have open fires in. I would like to put something in there that we could get some heat out of. The house is around 2000 square feet, however, we wouldn't need something that would heat the whole house. The problem I'm running into is the size of the firebox and the hearth (see attached pics). I have already extended the hearth by 6 inches by ripping the floor out and putting in durock with an extra tile width so I would like to avoid having to do it again. I could have a mason modify the firebox to give us extra room for an insert (is that a safe thing to do?). I was also told by a local stove dealer that I can't stick a stove into the firebox because it has to have clearance overhead. Is that true? If that is the case then if I were to put a wood stove in there it would have to sit fully on the hearth which means I would have to extend the hearth out yet again. Plus it would stick out into the room quite a bit.

If we can modify the firebox I was looking at either the regency I1100, or the Lopi Answer. If we can do a wood stove I was looking at the VC Aspen, Jøtul 602CB, or Jøtul Nordic QT.

Firebox dimensions: W = 23.75", H = 30", D = 15", Rear width = 18". Hearth: W = 59.5", D (to firebox opening face) = 23.5"

Any suggestions or recommendations would be great.

P.S. It's an unlined chimney that I'm going to reline with an insulated flexible liner and is about 30' tall. Thanks!

 

[babalu87]

An insert will fit better, a wood stove would heat better

Hate to say it but the best bet might be to extend the hearth again and get a big stove. In that climate you need at least a 2.5 cubic foot firebox

 

[webbie]

I'm with Bab to use a hearth stove - because that is quite a small fireplace and anything that fits back in there would have to be quite small.

This will require the hearth to be extended, but you can look for a stove with relatively close rear clearances.

It looks like the fireplace may be interior - if that is true, then a stove or insert sitting back into it would still be a good option (not as good if exterior)..... Since you don't care about heating the entire house, some of the models you mentioned may be A-OK. How about the Jotul 3CB? That thing can pump out some heat and will look good in a house like yours. It should fit OK, and you can even use short legs (I think) if you want a bit more top clearance.

 

[babalu87]

2000 sq ft of 1892 house in Minnesota will need two 3CB's
If its a Jotul it needs to be the Oslo, no?

EDIT
Ooops got the Jotuls confused. Better be the Firelight CB, thats the big one

 

[Todd]

Another option as far as hearth stoves is woodstock. Their stoves are side loaders so the clearance to the front is only 8". But then you need 16" on the side.

Love Duluth, met my wife there back in 1984 when I was in the Coast Guard. We had a blizzard in 85 that blocked off the lift bridge and park point for 4 days. Worst snow storm I've ever seen.

 

[webbie]

2000 sq ft of 1892 house in Minnesota will need two 3CB's
If its a Jotul it needs to be the Oslo, no?

EDIT
Ooops got the Jotuls confused. Better be the Firelight CB, thats the big one

Ha, I actually read the whole post (no speed reading):

"however, we wouldn’t need something that would heat the whole house. "

 

[Jimbob]

This little feller will fit right in there, and I don't think you'll need to extend your floor protection very much.
http://www.drolet.ca/product.aspx?CategoId=1&Id=179&Page=spec

 

[uwtriguy]

It sounds like extending out the hearth further yet and putting in a stove would be my best bet. If I extend the hearth more I suppose I could go with something that would really throw out the heat like the Jotul Oslo or Firelight. Is it possible to put a smaller wood stove part way in the firebox and part on the hearth or does it need more then a couple inches clearance on top?

That sucks, I wish I would have known that I needed even more hearth space when I extended it the first time that way I could have done it all at once!

Any more suggestions would be great. Thanks again.

 

[babalu87]

2000 sq ft of 1892 house in Minnesota will need two 3CB's
If its a Jotul it needs to be the Oslo, no?

EDIT
Ooops got the Jotuls confused. Better be the Firelight CB, thats the big one

Ha, I actually read the whole post (no speed reading):

"however, we wouldn’t need something that would heat the whole house. "

I always ignore the we wouldn’t need something that would heat the whole house part of a post.

How many people do you know that are happy with the decision to go with a small stove that, no matter what they try with fans, closing doors etc,etc,etc cant heat their house.
My thought, if your going to go through the trouble of installing a stove, gathering/processing/buying firewood, loading the stove, sweeping the chimney and dealing with the bits of bark, sawdust and the occasional snake skin then why not put one in that heats the entire house if that is possible

I will admit to speed-reading though :D
I stand by the previous paragraph/run on sentence.

 

[webbie]

Actually, I lied - I did not read the whole post, but I did catch that part!

I think it is important for folks to size based on their available wood and how they intend to use a stove. In a winter like this, everyone complains if their stove is too small. When it is like last winter (60 in Jan here in the NE), folks complain about bad draft, smoking and getting roasted out.

I think the really important part is that folks know what they are getting. A lot of the stoves mentioned in this thread are "fast-hot" burners, meaning they can put out all kinds of heat, but long burns are tough - especially at high heat levels. I would have to agree with Bab when it comes to overnight burning....either up-size or go "cat" and mid-size.

 

[babalu87]

Cant make a stove bigger but you can crack a window/door if you need too

 

[velvetfoot]

I too have a 2000 ft2 2 story house.
I've just about given up on attempting to heat the second floor (or even control it for that matter): it is a separate heating zone, is largely under the control of my Mrs. Velvetfoot, and it takes too long for heat to get up there.
My little insert does do a good job on heating the downstairs.
Your fireplace is pretty skinny.
Mrs. V. was very keen on the flush insert look. I don't think I could have sold her on a separate stove. It does take up valuable ft2 though, I have to admit.

 

[uwtriguy]

Good points. A bigger stove would probably be the way to go. I guess its better to be a little too warm and make a smaller fire then to not have enough heat.

It sounds like I will be extending the hearth out even further. Do you think 1/2 inch Durock with 1/4 inch thinset and 1/4 tile would be enough floor protection?

Can I also put the rear part of the stove where the exhaust pipe comes out part way into the fireplace? Thanks for the advice.

 

[babalu87]

Floor protection is dependent on the stove model, what is the current floor protection there?
Manufacturers will tell you and R value, some tell a K value as well. MICORE is a really good material for heat protection but it is flimsy so it would need to be incorporated with a durock/cement board

 

[begreen]

Northern Living. The Answer and I1100 are small stoves. A bigger stove is likely warranted. How large is the room that the stove is going in? How open is the 1st floor plan? How will you be running the stove- 24/7 or evenings and weekends?

Regarding the clearance question, is there a mantle currently on the fireplace? The photo doesn't show this.

As to floor protection, it will depend on the stove choice. Most Jotuls with the bottom ashpan and heat shield simply require ember protection. In that case, 1/2 inch Durock with 1/4 inch thinset and 1/4 tile is enough floor protection.

 

[uwtriguy]

The room the stove will be in is 12' by 22'. It's a very open first floor plan. The stairs going up are right around the corner from the fireplace are rather open. I think I would get a fair amount of heat going upstairs from the stove.

Here is another picture with four more tile widths laid out for comparison along with a pic of the mantle. The mantle only sticks out from the wall 2 inches at the very top and is 47" from the hearth.

Good to hear the floor protection would be adequate. I think I would go with the Jotul Oslo if I extend the hearth.

 

[begreen]

The Oslo is a great stove and a good looker too. I agree that this sounds like a good setup for the bigger stove to do a good job of heating more than just the room. The Jotul F500 Oslo does have a side door so it would be best to do a masking tape outline of the stove on the hearth and determine where 16" falls from the side door as well.

The woodwork is an issue, even if only 2" it is combustible and directly over the hottest part of the stove. Some sort of shielding will be needed. See the Oslo manual for an explanation of what is required and clearances needed.

 

[uwtriguy]

I have laid out the new hearth extension and made a few measurements for installing an Oslo. The problem I'm facing now is that the wife doesn't want something sticking out into the room that far (30''). Any suggestions on what else I could do? Here are some other options I have been considering. Any advice on advantages or disadvantages would be great. Thanks again.

1. Redo the mantel, firebox and firebox surround to accommodate a larger insert (not sure what I would run into with an old house like this)
2. Hire someone to remove the existing chimney and install a masonry heater built in.
3. Install a wood stove in the basement hooked up to the second chimney. It's an unfinished basement, I would worry about heat circulation.
4. Install a wood gasification furnace in the basement to tie into our existing baseboard heat. (Would have to wait for a couple years to redo the fireplace upstairs)
5. Install a hybrid system (seems to be the best of both worlds) such as this: http://www.hydro-to-heat-convertor.com/.

Any experience or thoughts with the hydro to heat system? It seems to offer supplemental heat to the existing baseboard system, with hot water heat, and a nice aesthetic appeal. Sorry for the many options. I just really like the idea of burning wood and would like to most of it.

 

[uwtriguy]

Any suggestions or thoughts on the different options I have? Or maybe there are too many! Does anyone have experience with the Heat to Hydro system? http://www.hydro-to-heat-convertor.com/.

 

[velvetfoot]

I think you should ask about the heat to hydro thing in the Boiler forums.

You have to look at your budget, get estimates, see what would work for your lifestyle.

Since we might have some common issues, I will say that my wife bought into the flush insert option.
You can see the fire, it's warm where you are sitting, etc.
A boiler in the basement is a big, expensive project, and you still will have an inefficient fireplace.

I think I would rebuild the fireplace.
I have no idea what's new or anything, but how about a cast iron highly efficient fireplace, like this:
http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Webshare/wood/wood fireplaces/nz26_wi.html

Plus, I think cast iron would look good there for your house.

I have no idea about masonry heaters, but that sounds like a lot of expensive custom work and you still won't see the fire.

Pardon my ramblings....

 

[bokehman]

The problem I'm facing now is that the wife doesn't want something sticking out into the room that far (30'').

From the look of the picture she's probably right. The room is 12' long, but, that triangular chimney breast is already eating up 3' x 3' of the room space. Then you have the tiled area in front of the fire taking 5' x 4' and a stove and hearth that is severely interfering with all the traffic through the doorway. Come into the room carrying a tray of food and you wouldn't even be able to see the stove that you have to squeeze past. Also, I see you have a fireguard so I am guessing you have some kids or animals there. If so, to continue to protect them properly you'll end up with something blocking the doorway to an even greater extent.

One option might be to completely remove the chimney breast and have the stove free-standing, right back in that corner.

 

[uwtriguy]

I like the idea of removing the chimney and putting the stove in the corner. I wonder how much it would run to have someone remove the chimney and run a new stainless steal chimney from the main flow through the attic? I guess it's more options to look at. Thanks again.

 

[velvetfoot]

Is that shiny chimney going to look good going through the roof in a corner? Would it have to be tall and reinforced for proper clearance.

 

[uwtriguy]

The only part that would be visible in the room would be from the stove to the ceiling. The rest of the chimney is behind walls. The exit on the roof is at the highest point so it would only stick out about 3-4 feet above the roof line.

 

[velvetfoot]

Oh, I thought you thinking of relocating the potential stove to a corner.