Inserts and stoves to be installed in Zero Clearance fireplaces....

[MountainStoveGuy]

This question, more like situation, has come up more often then not around here, and also on the retail sales floor. Ironic i got a tech bulliten today from one of my manufactures that outlines the requirements.

Some companies have "blanket" listings for all there stoves and inserts they manufacture and sell. With that any single one of there stoves can be installed in a zero clearance fireplace.

Even though leagle, there are issues with this install, mostly that ZC fireplaces are to short, and you still have to maintain the clearance to the fireplace like it was a combustable, which will result in a long horizontal run.

Here is the 10 point list of requierments:

1) The insert must be tested to UL 1482 or ULC S628
2) The FIREPLACE must be tested to UL627 or ULC S610
3) Clearances from masonry fireplace testing are also relevant for installations in a factory built fireplace.
4) The chimney liner must meet the "HT" requirements
5) Room air must be blocked from entering the chimney cavity (usally by blocking the damper area OR sealing the fireplace front.)
6) Louvers or cooling inlets must not be blocked
7) Alteration of the fireplace is not permitted unless specific exceptions are listed in the owners manual.
8) Circulating air chambers must not be blocked
9) Means to remove the insert for cleaning must be provided
10) A permanent metal warning lable saying that the fireplace must be restored to its original condition if the insert is removed.


Food for thought....

 

[Corie]

I think this should probably be thrown over into a Wiki, or become a sticky or something. This is important info for sure!

 

[stoveguy13]

MSG there is one other issue with the zero-clearance install of a wood stove the chimney has never been tested in most case to allow for a liner to go down it i think if you called csia for example they would tell you that this is not something that they recomend and that if a stove was installed that way you will be holding all the liability on the installation and you wont have a very strong argument if it ever got to court god forbid i would stay away from the deal all together and try to change them over to gas or pellet

 

[elkimmeg]

This is going to take some time to research nd post the codes concerning wood burning inserts in pre fab fireplaces.

I think we have to expand this disscussion to prefabs because not all are zc's

From past discussions I think we agreed that only inserts that carried z clearance could be installed, using the merits of the listing of the insert.

The major prolem is many pre fabs are not listed or if they were the listing identification is long gone.
Hell most of the time we can not identify the manufacturer

Again this is a two part issue qualifying the fireplace and listings and clearances. Two the venting issue again identifying it and finding its ul listing. There is one manufacturer that has tested a liner and cap system that has been tested and certified to meet ul apporoval on its own merits and listind. I believe the manufacturer is Home saver and I posted the listing and info , when we last had this discussion.

All this is assuming the conditions are good enough for safety reasons We have seen too many pictures of rusted threw per fabs
Many times ther is no way to estblish how close the combustiables are. Without knowing no permit or installation should be made

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I dont have a problem if the manufacture of the insert has tested for it, and the ZC fireplace manufactue meets the codes listed above. If something happens, the liability falls on the manufactures, not us. Assuming that the ZC fireplace was installed with the approved chimney, and the insert was installed with the approved liner.

 

[Elderthewelder]

I recently had a insert installed in my ZC fireplace, my owners manual say's the insert is tested to UL907 and UL127, also the installers had a bear of a time getting the stainless liner hooked up to the stove, it is a full flex liner, they put a elbow joint on it at the bottom ( sorry don't know the correct name) and a off set adapter is screwed and sealed to the top of the insert, and the insert still sits about 1.5 to 2" more inside the zc box than it should. to be honest I don't think I or a sweep could take it out if we wanted to for cleaning, the installers said do not remove it for cleaning and a good sweep would not need to remove it

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Elk, exactly. How many of those old pre fab ZC can be identified? if they cant then its a no go.

Its clear to me now that just because the insert is listed, doesnt automaticly mean that it will be a leagle install

Jotul and Hearthstone both have "blanket" listings, all of there stoves can be installed in ZC as long as the ZC meets the requiremts listed above.

Quadra Fire does not have a blanket listing, they only have certain models that can be installed in ZC, and the way i read it, only of the ZC fireplace is listed with the requirements above.

I just thought i would post what the Manufactures are putting out to retailers. By no means did i make this list up. this came from the leagle and R&D departments....

 

[elkimmeg]

If it cannot be identified how confortable Are you with It might be ok? If the UL listing do not match what is required by the manufacturer, then the installation voids the listing. Might be ok or maybe is not good enough. Remember these setups are surounded by combustiables many only 2" away. If there is any safety concern, I'm not going to issue a permit. If it has been installed prior to obtaining a permit and I discover that during inspections, its comming out. Inspite of what other recently posted,.. I have been in court being sued.

 

[elkimmeg]

MSG this is an excellent topic, one tha neds to be discussed.
There seems to be a lot of inquiries on the forum concerning inserts in VC

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Im not comfortable if it cannot be identified. Period. Its pretty black and white. Does the istall meet all 10 requirements? if no.. then NO.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

with a ZC wouldnt the weight of the insert be a factor, arent these things(the ZC) just kinda "framed in"? is there a load bearing capability that must be met? i had heard once i think that martin industries had a ZC capable insert, but never really looked into it , at ESW ours are not rated for ZC and cannot be installed into one

 

[DiscoInferno]

A lot of the stove/fireplace companies that I called around here (MD) won't even consider installing inserts into prefabs, although at least one was willing to run a liner and install a stove in front of it. Of course, they weren't real keen on replacing my prefab zc with a new EPA zc, either. Wound up finding a chimney guy to do it. It's a cleaner install than an insert, but more work. I haven't decided about my other prefab; it's big enough for an insert, it's relatively new, I know what model it is, and it's listed, but how do you elevate the insert to the level of the fireplace floor without blocking the bottom louvres?

 

[ourhouse]

When we were looking at stoves and inserts some inserts would fit in our fireplace. We thought great, but we emailed the maker of the ZC fireplace and told them what we wanted to do.They said oh hell no the fireplace could not handle the weight of the insert. I don't want to even think of what could have happened if we put it in.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I think everyone can agree that its not the most desiarable installation, installers hate them, they promote poor draft (freestanding with a long horizontal), and are hard to finish out and look nice. But, in some instances there leagle, and most folks dont have 4 or 5 grand for a complete gut job. For those folks that meet the critera above they have a option of getting efficeint heat at a reasonable cost. Do i like selling inserts and stoves for ZC boxes? NO WAY, but will I if it can be done leagly? heck yea.

 

[Elderthewelder]

here are some pics of my Country C160 insert installed in my Majestic ZC box, according to Country this insert is approved for a ZC install and approved for a majestic ZC box, However according to MSG's 10 point list I am not legal, wich has me just a little concerned. here are my answers to MSG's 10 points
1) no- Insert is UL907 and UL127tested
2)no-no idea
3)yes
4)yes
5)yes ( front)
6)ok- not blocked
7)ok-in compliance
8)ok- not blocked
9)no
10)no

 

[Elderthewelder]

and a few more

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Elderthwelder, im not meaning to raise a red flag, i dont know the UL listings well enough to know what the differences are. I didnt make that list, i copied it from a newsletter from a manufacture, and that doenst mean that its 100% accurate, but it should be. Dont get to worked up over it, if you want, research the different listings and post the results here.