Installing an Insert in Log Home

[brianj42]

Hi all,

This is my first post, although I have been using this site for quite a bit of research. Thank you all for all of the great info and thanks in advance for your help with these questions.

I have to retrofit a wood burning insert into my newly built log home. A double Flue chimney has been installed as there is a pellet boiler in the basement. The insert is in the lounge and I want to fit it directly right of the chimney which goes up through the lounge where the flue will go from the fire and directly left to the chimney. The problem is that the insert will be about 30cm from the solid log wall behind it. I want to enclose the fire so that I can finish the fireplace and chimney with veneer stone but I have no idea about how to insulate and enclose the fire surround.

Any help would be appreciated.

B

 

[jtp10181]

So.... you have no fireplace right now? Inserts are made to be INSERTED into an existing functioning fireplace. Since it seems you are not in the USA can you post some links of the fireplaces you have been looking at so we can see if they will work for your project.

 

[brianj42]

Hi jtp

We emigrated from the UK to the snowy mountains of Bulgaria in Eastern Europe. Main reason apart from living in a ski resort is the cost to build the log home and cost of living is less than a quarter of the UK.

Unfortunately, living in an ex communist country does have its downsides, good knowledgable tradesman being the main one.

I will put photo's online for you to see, but what the chimney/fireplace expert has left me with does actually bring a smile to my face each time I look at it, if it wasn't so scarey.

I have the chimney which is blockwork coming up through the lounge floor and straight up through the ceiling.

I have a log insert sat precariously on 8 concrete building blocks to the right of it.

It is connected to the chimney by a 20cm single skin, ribbed, steel pipe which went from chrome to purple when the fire was used.

Its connection to the chimney is a large hole was hammered in the chimney and the pipe just stuffed in and packed out with wool insulation.

There's a 30cm gap between the fire and the log wall which has one sheet of gypsum board, one layer of wool fire insulation and finally one layer of silver backed wool insulation.

Asthetics are not a strong point here, everything is practicle or not at all.

Basically, I want to fit the fire in place and stone veneer the fireplace and chimney.

Any help on this would be gratefully appreciated as there is a total lack here of any expertise whatsoever. The "fire" expert is also the local shepherd. One day it will make an interesting chapter in my book, or if any Western Fireplace experts require a "how not to do it" photo I have one ready.

Cheers

Brian

 

[begreen]

Hi Brian, welcome. This sounds vaguely familiar. We had a lady in Malta that did a similar installation. I'll post the link here so that you can look at the pictures. The big difference is that she has a cement house. Your installation will need to have good wood protection.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/6834/

If you could post the make and model of your current unit, we may be able to be of more help, but local parts, like the flue assembly pieces, are likely to be quite different. FWIW, what I saw most often in Bulgaria were free-standing stoves. The built-in ones were more in commercial establishments, so it may take a commercial stone mason working with instructions from the stove guy to pull this off safely. When in Bulgaria last fall I saw several stove installations, some fairly sophisticated, so there are installers that know what they are doing, but I suspect they need to work near the urban areas so that they can have steady work. There are stove people and shops in Bulgaria, but as you are finding out, not necessarily in the remote mountains. There is a big difference between areas of relative prosperity and rural poverty. My guess is that there may be one guy in an area of 50 sq km that deals with your kind of installation. Pay him well and have some good Melnik wine on hand for the end of the day.

Can you plan a day trip to Sophia, Plovdiv or other nearby city and visit with a local stove shop there? Bring good photos, drawings and accurate measurements and have them draw up a diagram or two for the mason that details clearances. Stock up with the recommended local flue pipe, insulation, screws and connectors. And be patient. What you are experiencing is common in rural areas around the world. Even in the states we often have to head outside our local area due to the lack of expertise in rural areas. I just had a woodworker travel 60 miles to rebuild our staircase and undo the local handywork.

In the meantime, the fireplace resting on cement blocks is not the worst I've seen. Just be sure that the wood behind the stove connecting pipe is not getting hot. And post a picture or two. It will be fun to see how the project progresses.

 

[brianj42]

Hi Mod

Sounds like you have visited the "land of the rising prices" a few times (Losing communism and joining the EU the Bulgars have embraced Capitalism with gusto).

The log house builder has built around 20 log homes here and each with a log insert. Each time the installation is the same. Block base with concrete lintel, fire on top and then a wooden framed plasterboard clad shell above with silver insulation inside and single skin flue. It doesn't seem to be all that safe to me otherwise thats the route I would go. I am in Sofia next week so could make enquiries, but I have learnt here that most "experts" are now in Europe earning big bucks, and they have left cousin Ivor and his trusty 14lb hammer behind to carry on the good work.......

The fire is a 15kw of French make (Unknown), came with no instructions as it was bought from Ivor who used the instructions to light the fire he had installed before. I have attached a photo of the install at the moment (NO Laughing) and can take some close ups of the fire if that would help.

One plan I did have, and don't worry about building regs or fire regs here....they don't exist. But at the end of the day I have to live here so I would like to make it as safe as possible and to some high standard regs.

The floor is a wooden floor on a 10" thick concrete slab so I can either start on the wood or cut through to the concrete. Put Thermalite block (Cinder) to form a base, then a concrete slab all around to sit the fire on and build a shelf all around. Place the fire more at an angle to the right of the chimney and about 24" from the wall, then build around the fire with thermalite block, and insulated (with what I don't know). Connect the fire with a solid flue, preferably twin wall, clad with veneer and hey presto Bob's your uncle (Or Ivor)....

What you think ?

B

 

[brianj42]

Hi All

What I would hope to end up with a fireplace as below.

B

 

[begreen]

Don't worry, we've seen worse here. The house looks very nice.

First question I have is why the cement chimney at all? Is there more than one flue inside of it? Normally we would go up with a metal double wall pipe, honoring it's required clearances to combustibles. Then surround it with a chase and put the stone veneer on that. But it sounds like you already understand that. How do you clean that sucker when it is fully encased?

If you can replace the current pipe with double-wall and do a proper thimble connection into the chimney, you will have a better start. Then maybe build in a lower and top vent into side of the stone chase to keep the cavity above the stove cooler?

Yes coincidentally I was in Bulgaria for a visit last October. It's a lovely country and quite far from backwards. Some areas like Koprivshtitsa seem to blend rural and progress beautifully. They even had an internet cafe! I'm glad that they are growing in prosperity. Their culture is an ancient and proud one and deserves a break after the harshness of the past 60 years.

 

[IK_biker]

Brian,

Having spent 38 years of my life in that country, I happen to know a thing or two about how things are done there.

While you are soaking the good advice from BeGreen, who set you on the right track, let me just chime in with some clarifications:

1. Sofia is not necessarily your best bet for finding a skilled craftsman for what you need. I could not gather where your log home is exactly - there are towns you can get the help you need close to Pamporovo, Borovetz, Bansko, which are the more prominent ski resorts out there.

2. I have not been back to Bulgaria in 11 years, and do not keep current on many aspects, but if you tried to insure your log home, or tried to build it from zero in a township (regulated land), you would have discovered that not only there are both building and fire regs (I happen to know a thing or two about these, as my father-in-law used to be an architect in Bulgaria) but that these are rigorously enforced. Unless, of course, you find the right clerk(s) whose hand to "grease" :red: with some dough, which then opens way different avenues. What said regulations specifically forbid is to have a wood-burning appliance in entirely wooden structure, unless certain clearances are followed, and even then the roof structure should not be made solely from wood - it has to employ a few other materials, its parts put together in a very specific manner to allow for a chimney to pass through. (I happen to own a property in a place called Jeravna, which is an architectural and historical preserve, where all buildings are made out of wood (unlike the rest of Europe), and have fought a few battles about these regulations with the local government back in the old days.)

3. The photo you attached made me cry instead of laugh. Even per that country's standards it shows piss-poor workmanship. Get help, quick, and have this strange misunderstanding of a heating appliance corrected.

4. Once you locate the right man for the job, get him loaded in a car together with his tools of the trade, and delivered to your site. Preferably right away. If you only make a verbal agreement that he will call on your home later on, nothing will happen, ever. Pay him a reasonable advance (for materials and such), and the balance - after all is done. Also keep in mind that in Bulgaria it is quite customary to pay the roofers after the first really heavy downpour, and the fireplace builders and chimney masons - after a week or so of steady wood-burning which gives the customer at least some proof that the job was well done.

Cheers,
IK

 

[begreen]

Great advice IK, thanks.

Brian, take a look all around the stove. There has to be some identification on it. Knowing the make and model will be the first step towards getting clearance specs. Or get Ivor to make a copy of the docs from another unit.

 

[brianj42]

Hi All

At this point I'd like to thank all who have replied and I am slowly piecing together snippets of help and working on the basis of ripping it out (with the exception of the chimney) and starting afresh.

In answer to questions:

There are two flues within the chimney, one for the Biomass boiler in the basement and one for this fire. The cleaning point for both is in the basement.

I have contacted Ivor to get the make and model number, he's going to contact the supplier this morning so as soon as I know I'll post.


IK.

We are based in Bachevo (pop 1600) which is 10km outside Bansko. Nestled at the bottom of the Rila and overlooking unspoilt views of the Pirin. The village is typical old time Bulgarian retaining its old charm and the people are just lovely. The land was regulated and we have managed to avoid having to bung any officials in order to get permissions, planning, electric, water etc etc. We did this by employing a local girl as our English translator who (as you know) seems to be related to everyone in the various departments that we needed for the build, so with her help and managing to get in front of the right people we have done this all by the book. On the insurance side, due to the HUGE amount of Brits now buying second homes in Eastern Europe, most of the UK insurance companies now cover overseas properties so we have it insured in the UK.

Your answer on the building and fire regs still puzzles me though, and thats with no disrespect. Our architect who is a top Sofia firm drew up the plans, 10 sets of various documents that were required Technical, Water, Electric, Canalization, Heating, Health & Safety etc etc which went into the local Municipality and 1 month later we got planning permission. Once the house was complete the municipality came out and took photographs and land measurements, the electric board came out and tested TWO sockets, the water board came out and read the meter and we got Clause 16. There has never been mention either by the architects or municipality on building regs or fire regs in particular on the chimney and fireplace aspect. I think that new builds are slightly more relaxed on regs than renovations in places like Jeravna, Melnik, Kuprivshtitsa, Nessabar, Sozopol and Plovdiv. Which to be honest is a good thing as these places still retain the charm and stunning looks of old Bulgaria (With the exception of Sozopol and Nessabar which I will expand on below). I would think that the local planning in these towns, enforced by the Government have ensured that they stay intact and original as possible and that new builds are kept to a minimum and strictly controlled on what can be built.


To this I will expand and as you haven't been here for 11 years this may come as somewhat of a shock. I think, in order to avoid boring most people with the details I'll PM you the story so far...


Brian

 

[brianj42]

I found it, would you believe by trawling the internet for wood inserts.

http://marchona.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=34

Unfortunately no instructions, but I have written to them direct.

Ivor went to the shop today but it has closed, apparently moved, but no-one knows where to .

Thanks

B

 

[begreen]

It looks like it is designed to be put into a masonry cavity with vents. Good you are getting the docs. Hopefully they'll send you English instructions and not Greek.

 

[brianj42]

Well that one took rather longer than expected, plus a few distractions in between. Hopefully you guys are all still around to advise, comment, condemn, shoot, laugh and all the other things we do.

I finally got the instructions in Greek, and got them translated to Bulgarian so that I can get them translated to English. Long way around I know but it was the easiest.

Its a standard stove insert fitting with 100mm from the back and side, and 200mm from the floor.

To this, I plan to build a Ytong (aerated lightweight concrete block) base and surround and then clad in a stone veneer. Instead of placing the fire at the side as it is currently on the picture above which I posted, I will be putting it in front of the chimney, thus I shouldn't have to worry about the insulation on the wooden log wall behind as it currently is.

So. The new set of questions, if you don't mind, are:

1: Is Ytong sufficient for a base for the insert, or would I also be better putting in a sheet of steel or a thin concrete plinth ?

2: Will the Ytong chimney already in place be sufficient at the back of the fire or, after the 100mm gap, should I insulate with firebricks or fibre ?

I have tried to get expertise from Sofia, and Bansko and lots of other places but I am very wary of their advice.

Thanks in advance

Brian

 

[IK_biker]

Brian,

I am really glad you are surviving out there....

I am pretty sure the Ytong blocks would be fine for the base, as long as it is supported on its entire width/girth by the concrete slab under the wooden floor. Make sure the mason (or you) avoid pointy contacts between Ytong and slab. The only addition to make maneuvering the insert around when placing it onto the blocks would be a rectangular piece of sheet metal (0.8 - 1.2 mm thick) to make sliding the insert with some precision easier. You may need this or may not.

As to the back, if it was me, I'd give the local Ytong rep a call, and ask them if exposure to 350°C consistently, with short spikes up to 450°C, from 100 mm afar would be a problem. Here:
xella - Bulgaria
If they confirm it's OK, I'd then go ahead with the Ytong surround. I presume you would keep the surround at about 100 mm from the side of the insert.
Since you are planning to wrap the insert in the fashion it was designed to be used, perhaps you would consider installing a blower kit, as 30-50W of electricity (for the fan) would go a long way to help you maintain comfortable temperatures.

The only concern I have is about your existing Ytong chimney, as you mentioned a single-skin flue inside. How is your installer going to make the connection between flue and stove exhaust port? Is there a sufficient clearance between this "skin" and the inside of the Ytong chimney blocks? Is this safe?

Oh, and make sure the mortar used for the surround more or less matches the Ytong's thermal expansion rate, and is rated for high temperatures.

I hope you succeed. Keep us on this forum updated, as this is not our usual boring insert installation.

Cheers!

 

[brianj42]

Cheers IK

Thanks for this.

I have approached Ytong and am awaiting a reply.

The only concern I have is about your existing Ytong chimney, as you mentioned a single-skin flue inside. How is your installer going to make the connection between flue and stove exhaust port? Is there a sufficient clearance between this “skin” and the inside of the Ytong chimney blocks? Is this safe?

There is no flue within the chimney, it is a straight concrete chimney liner. His original connection on my original pic above was to whack a great hole through the Ytong surround, whack a large hole in the concrete chimney liner, then wedge the steel pipe into the hole and stuff it with insulation.

One thing that is puzzling me though at the moment the flexible steel exhaust flue from the insert, the guy who originally fitted it has fitted an adaptor to take it from the 20cm exhaust outlet on the insert to a 25cm pipe into the chimney. This was all well and good when entering the chimney from the right as its 25cm wide, but now as I am entering from the front this is only 20cm wide.

Does this mean I can now fit a 20cm flexible steel flue straight from the insert and straight into the 20cm chimney ?

Why would he have put an adaptor on the insert to take the flexible flue from a 20cm to a 25cm ? Is this standard ?

Brian

 

[IK_biker]

Does this mean I can now fit a 20cm flexible steel flue straight from the insert and straight into the 20cm chimney ?

I think it does, since this is what the stove exhaust size is.

Why would he have put an adaptor on the insert to take the flexible flue from a 20cm to a 25cm ? Is this standard ?

Two things come to mind:
1. This is Bulgaria after all - that's what was available at the time.
2. As I recall, there used to be a notion some 30 years ago in Bulgaria that a piece of very wide stovepipe just above the stove would increase the overall efficiency, due to the larger surface area of the pipe, turning it into an extra heat exchanger. Perhaps this is what the original installer subscribed to.

 

[brianj42]

Hi IK

20cm it is, and I'm going for the flexible rather than the rigid stove pipe. Started work yesterday with the hearth and the first level up to the point where I am going to put the fire in place.

Another question though. I was going to build up the sides, which are about 2.5m high using the thermalite and insulating the inside with the reflective rockwool. But. Having seen the video as per the link below, which is from a Bulgarian company.......Is this right ? It seems to go against most recommendations and regulations I have seen, or am I just over engineering my build ? Can I do this rather than thermalite, or would thermalite be better all round ?

http://www.marmodom.com/en/procespop.php

Cheers

Brian

 

[IK_biker]

Brian,

I hope others would chime in and give their opinion.

I have no idea if what the video showed is right. It would depend on the materials used, of which the video did not provide any specifics.

Your original plan sounds good though.

 

[brianj42]

I think I'll stick with the original plan, better to be safe than sorry. I must admit, from the video, the single wall chimney flue dangling from the wooden ceiling seemed interesting. The video did manage to make me feel safer in what I am planning.

I'll post photo's of the progress.

Cheers

Brian

 

[brianj42]

Hi All

Apologies for the long gap but it has been a hectic year.

Please find pic of finished fireplace which I am quite proud.

Thanks

B

 

[DeePee]

The finished setup looks great!

 

[begreen]

Very nice Brian! Now where's the fire!

 

[BucksCoBernie]

I smell a new trend coming to the states soon. thats a cool looking fireplace. very contemporary.

 

[DeePee]

I smell a new trend coming to the states soon. thats a cool looking fireplace. very contemporary.

Off-topic, but a shop opened locally carrying mainly Scandinavian / European stoves, all with contemporary demo installations. They have some amazing inserts but prices are in the $8000 - $12000CAD range, before installation. I'm not sure how well Canadian manufactured stoves fit into the theme, but perhaps things will change with demand.

 

[brianj42]

Thanks guys, the picture actually doesn't do it justice. I would light a fire in it for the photo shoot but with temperatures at the moment reaching the mid thirties, we'd cook like a boil in the bag salmon )

It was a long haul and everything on it was built from scratch including the plastering, which was a first time for me. Living in Bulgaria has really helped on the DIY front, you either do it yourself or it doesn't get done.

Whether I can quote costs or not, but top to bottom on this including the insert has probably set me back about €2000

There are some stunning looking inserts on the market here, not quite sure where the Nordic ones come from but most here are from the Czech Republic or Poland......but even the most expensive isn't anywhere near what your quoting. Happen its because we're just around the corner (from a global point of view).

I would offer posting them to you but I think UPS may have a problem with the size to weight ratio )

Brian