Introduction, and a question for Brother Bart.

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Codeman812

Codeman812

New Member
Feb 19, 2007
84
Medina, NY
I have to say foremost that words cannot describe how much this forum has helped me as a 1st year woodburner. For example I had credit card in hand and was poised to buy a Vozelgang "Mountaineer." Elk's vehement disapproval for that unit caused me to rethink and I went for The Century Hearth at Lowe's. Not a great, top-o-line stove, but a vast improvement over what I was considering, so thanks to Elk and to the other, many regulars for providing a wealth of knowledge that I am still trying to absorb. I also see that I am not the only 1st year burner to suffer the wood man, short cords, hissing wood blues. I will, starting this year, process my own wood. I hope to have nice huge Holz's like Mo Heat :)
I searched in a little of Brother Barts post and could not find where you bought your Englander from, BB could you please provide that info to me? I was also looking at Defiant cat or NC, PE summit, and Quadrafire 5700 steptop. I am sifting thru the many topics and gathering info now on those units. The Englanders rather nice price, my budget and the fact that Mike, a rep from the company frequently post msgs makes it seem a good choice.
 
I ended up having to go a convoluted route to get my stove. I live in Virginia but bought it from Sutherland's Lumber Company out of their Boulder, Colorado store and had it shipped to me.

You should be able to order one from any Home Depot, Ace Hardware or Lowe's store but all three proved to be the village idiots here and couldn't figure out how to do it.

I am sure that Mike can hook you up with somebody close that sells them.
 
Thanks for the reply sir. I agree with your assessment of those evil box stores, and I used to work at one. I know that if they dont have "it" in stock and have to SOS the item then the price increases drastically.
 
Everbody wil think I going to push a VC product, buttttt I would go tho the local Home Cheapo and ask then to do a computer search and see if they can find one, in one of their stores.

The quality of the NC -13 to Centrury were even. However the NC-30 has a more advanced secondary burn. They burn twice as clean as the PE summit if one compares the GPH, at 3 times less cost. I could have purchased one for $388 a month back. I will let BB detail burn times and actual heat produced but 1.6 Grams per Hour for a 3.5 cu ft fire box is incredable. Most BTUs Per buck
 
LOL, pretty much anything that can head to ash can quickly. From Tucker (sp?) autos vs. the big 3, to the moon landing and even The Clinton's and Bush's being in bed together (which is why I am an independant and not a republicrat) and you can see that this discussion can go nowhere fast. In fact I really haven't hit the Ash can too much. I like all the information in the Hearth right now as I am trying to soak it all up, you guys are great. I did take a peak at BI, and fought hard to resist the urge to post, I really enjoy debate too much, its my sickness really.
 
elkimmeg said:
Everbody wil think I going to push a VC product, buttttt I would go tho the local Home Cheapo and ask then to do a computer search and see if they can find one, in one of their stores.

The quality of the NC -13 to Centrury were even. However the NC-30 has a more advanced secondary burn. They burn twice as clean as the PE summit if one compares the GPH, at 3 times less cost. I could have purchased one for $388 a month back. I will let BB detail burn times and actual heat produced but 1.6 Grams per Hour for a 3.5 cu ft fire box is incredable. Most BTUs Per buck
Click to expand...

Thanks, I would like to know about burn times, if you would Brother Bart.
Right now I have a headache from reading all the Cat vs. non-cat debates on this board. I still have alot of sifting to do and you have provided some valuable info.
If, that evil big box store has one in a store around here I think it would definately be worth picking up.
Someday I hope I can be of service to people as you folks have to me, gotta keep the circle going.
I did show a coworker the Holz Haufen concept and he said he was going to try it.
The majority of our coworkers think we are touched, and not by an angel :) they all live in rather well off suburbia on the edge of McMansionville though, I do work at a Toyota, Lincoln-Mercury Porsche dealership after all. I wouldn't trade the savings I experienced this year though for the old way I had been doing it with a gas forced air f-(dirty word on this board) ie, roughly a 500 gallon tank of propane a month. I came out better burning "woodman" hissing wood (I had to get creative with stack of wood all over the house.) I plan on buying logs this year, enough for 2 years, and I still think my wood will be better the first year than "woodmans"
 
Welcome Codeman. Are you thinking of replacing the Century? If yes, a good place to start is to describe the stove setup, house, and what you want to accomplish with the upgrade. Don't worry about the cat vs non-cat vs manure burner debate. A good stove is going to work well for you regardless. But it's a good idea to define your needs, budget and desires from the get go to keep the discussion on track.
 
I have an approximately 2600 sf 1860's house. Which means some of it is insulated, some single pane glass windows(except when the plastic is on.) 10 ft ceilings downstairs. 8 ft windows (replacement windows for the bay window was priced out at $6000.) I plan on moving the Century to the kitchen area, which is kinda like a wing off the back of the house, with an upstairs. I presently have the stove in the central area of the house, but heat doesn't move well into the kitchen area ( I should note that there is a bedroom off of the kitchen side of the house as well as a laundry room and bathroom that is unusable when it is really cold.) So I am looking at having two wood stoves going when it is really cold, and would like something bigger to heat the main area of the house. I will work on replacing windows and better (actually having) insulation throughout the house. I really want to do it myself as someone did put "newer" windows upstairs, the work was extremely shoddy as wind blows though those as much as downstairs. I really couldn't afford to do any work recently as we were trying to pay off the gas bill all year (budget plan of a little over $400 a month all year) With wood heating this year I can definitely see the difference (as a plus I really enjoy the heat and .... I really don't want to call it work...involved) I really enjoy DIY as I have a distrust of some contractors, I even work on my own vehicles. I have a perfectionist streak at times, it almost always takes me longer to do things because of it. I hope that is enough info for you. I would be glad to answer any questions, and I really appreciate your inquiry. I am open to other options if there any.
I should mention the stove has a centrally located interior chimney going straight up, way up, I have a fairly tall house. 10ft ceilings in the basement, 10 ft ceilings on the first floor, 8 ft on the second, a crawl space attic and the first floor is about 3 feet above ground level.
 
Sounds like you're on the right track. A big puppy like the 30NCL should work well for you. Doing whatever you can to reduce cold air infiltration will be like money in the bank and should be this summer's plan of attack. That and getting some nice stacks of wood ready for the winter should make a big dent in next season's heating bill.
 
Thats what I was thinking. I appreciate your input. Like I said this year was a dramatic decrease, even with some sizzling wood. From what I see my situation will only get better as I am now able to take that $400 and put it towards the house, even if it is a half a window at a time :)


BeGreen said:
Sounds like you're on the right track. A big puppy like the 30NCL should work well for you. Doing whatever you can to reduce cold air infiltration will be like money in the bank and should be this summer's plan of attack. That and getting some nice stacks of wood ready for the winter should make a big dent in next season's heating bill.
Click to expand...
 
It sounds like a 30-NC would be a good stove for the application Codeman.

Mine is installed half-in and half-out of my fireplace. Not the typical installation for a large freestanding stove but I wanted to try that in place of the large insert it replaced. Works really well. The house is a 2,500 sq. ft. standard center hall colonel with four major rooms downstairs, formal living and dining in the front and family room and kitchen to the rear. Four bedrooms upstairs. The fireplace is located on one end of the house in the family room. The stove has clearance to the fireplace firebox of 5.5 inches on each side and four on the top with a galvanized block-off plate and a double wall flex liner 21' straight up.

I burn it most of the time in a front to rear N/S wood configuration, but the most efficient burn is side-side E/W because of the way the primary air input is designed and the the side to side config of the four secondary burn tubes. Either way I run it between 450 and 500 surface temp. For this house and with the way the blower works that is sufficient to keep this place in the seventies temp wise at all outside temperatures which range from the low teens to the mid-twenties in the coldest months at night. As far as burn times go a average night load goes in around nine-o'clock and consists of forty or so pounds of red and/or white oak medium and small splits. It takes around thirty or forty-five minutes to get the burn levelled off. I have no idea what stove top temps it maintains since the blower causes the thermometer temp to read low when it is blowing across the top of the stove but it reads 400 or so as I mosey off to bed which is actually around five hundred without the blower on. Several times I haven't gotten up until nine the next morning and the blower was always still running which indicates the lower side of the stove body, where I have the Stove-Stat attached, hasn't gone below 90 degrees yet and there are just enough coals to get a new fire going. One night I didn't use the fan and since it was supposed to warm up the next day I didn't reload in the morning. That day the stove top temp was still a little over a hundred degrees at three o'clock that afternoon. Seventeen hours after the stove was loaded and a few stubborn coals were still in the ash. Ideal wood length is sixteen to eighteen inches even though you can put in 20" splits side to side but the fit would be too tight and it would not allow sufficient air circulation for a good burn.

The 30-NC tosses a ton of heat. It should given the large size of the stove body. It also radiates heat for a good while after the fire goes down as it should given a 455 pound mass. Where I have it located the brick mass of the fireplace holds and radiates a lot of heat also. The twin squirrel cage blower on the stove is the key to good heating in this house. It pulls air in from under the stove at the bottom of the rear heat shield and fires it straight out across the top of the stove into the room. Here that takes it right to that center hall and up the stairs. There is usually only a degree or two difference between the room the stove is in and the temp in the hall upstairs.

The stove isn't perfect. There was the issue of the flubbed weld on the secondary manifold but a dab of furnace cement seems to have taken care of it just fine. Much easier than dragging the beast out and hauling it back. And with my pretty strong draft the two ceramic fiber board baffle panels tend to move a little apart during a burn. I am discussing this with Mike.

All in all it is one hell of a wood stove. 1/4" top, 3/16" body and 110 pounds of firebrick. And a huge glass for oogling the fire. I think if you placed one in that central location where the Century is now you would end up with all of the heat you could handle in that place. Convection is really strong even without the blower. I was concerned about the blower assembly getting too hot if the fan wasn't running given that it is trapped behind the stove inside the fireplace firebox. What I have found out is that, even without the fan running, convection through the heat shield is sufficient to keep the fan assembly cool to the touch even with the stove running at a steady 400-500 so a lot of hot air is moving out into the room even without the fan running.

If you have any questions, just let me know.
 
BrotherBart said:
I ended up having to go a convoluted route to get my stove. I live in Virginia but bought it from Sutherland's Lumber Company out of their Boulder, Colorado store and had it shipped to me.

You should be able to order one from any Home Depot, Ace Hardware or Lowe's store but all three proved to be the village idiots here and couldn't figure out how to do it.

I am sure that Mike can hook you up with somebody close that sells them.
Click to expand...

LMAO. "southerlands in boulder" OUCH that hurts ;)

J/K bb, you know how i feel about shipping stoves.
 
MountainStoveGuy said:
BrotherBart said:
I ended up having to go a convoluted route to get my stove. I live in Virginia but bought it from Sutherland's Lumber Company out of their Boulder, Colorado store and had it shipped to me.

You should be able to order one from any Home Depot, Ace Hardware or Lowe's store but all three proved to be the village idiots here and couldn't figure out how to do it.

I am sure that Mike can hook you up with somebody close that sells them.
Click to expand...

LMAO. "southerlands in boulder" OUCH that hurts ;)

J/K bb, you know how i feel about shipping stoves.
Click to expand...

I thought about calling you about a stove but didn't want to mess up a friendship. You helped me way more than enough last year. And I knew if a problem arose with the stove I was only 150 miles from the plant. Something people have to realize about DIY stoves is that you are taking the responsibility for getting it back to either the store or the manufacturer if something goes wrong. If England's reputation hadn't been so good over the years around here and they weren't fairly close I wouldn't have done it. Hauling a stove back to Boulder would not be high on my list of things I wanted to do. Mike was offering to send a replacement but, even though he never mentioned it, under the warranty getting it down there or back to Boulder was my responsibility.

Besides, you were up to your ears with stoves, school, one little one and one on the way etc...

But the defining issues were:

1. ESW is a Virginia stove maker.
2. The 30-NC had the large firebox I was looking for.
3. It was a freestanding stove that would fit in that fireplace.
4. I had been hawking their stoves for a year on the Forum so it behoved me to put my money where my mouth is.

The way it worked out I had $2,500 budgeted for a stove and only ended up spending well under half of it. Worked my old butt off though since I didn't have anybody to help heft the things. Ever move-in and put 455 pounds, three times my weight, up on a raised hearth by yourself? Twice? Don't!
 
BB, i was kidding. We talked about this before you bought your stove. I didnt want to ship one that far anyway.
It tickled me that the stove came from my town. I thought you bought that locally. How in the heck did you end up with southerlands in boulder? Were you callin every dealer in the US?? Southerlands of boulder is kind of the red headed step child of hardware stores in boulder. Heck i didnt even know they sold stoves.
 
MountainStoveGuy said:
BB, i was kidding. We talked about this before you bought your stove. I didnt want to ship one that far anyway.
It tickled me that the stove came from my town. I thought you bought that locally. How in the heck did you end up with southerlands in boulder? Were you callin every dealer in the US?? Southerlands of boulder is kind of the red headed step child of hardware stores in boulder. Heck i didnt even know they sold stoves.
Click to expand...

I went to the local Lowe's, HD and ACE hardware stores. They are dealer's for Englander stoves. Not one of them could either figure out how to order one or, in the case of ACE, how to get it shipped to their store. I came home and looked on the web for who was advertising them. I then called Sutherland's home office and they directed me to a new website they had that sold stoves. I called the guy and he said he had one and could ship the next day. It turned out that he had it shipped out of the Boulder store. So, the stove was shipped originally from Monroe, VA to Boulder and then shipped back to Northern Virginia. I looked at the FedEx freight routing and the stove passed pretty much right back by the England plant on its way back here. I may have been the only person to ever buy a stove from them through that website. It wasn't long before they shut it down.

The guy at ACE seemed more interested in selling some stuff on the $.99 table to a guy than selling me the stove. Actually not selling me the stove. I was going to buy one that day from somebody. All he had to do was take my money and order it. I am willing to bet that ACE store has never sold a $1,000 item since the day it opened, yet he didn't seem to have the time to mess with it.

If I still had a commercial location I would be talking to Ron England about opening a stove store in Northern, VA.

Edit: My local stove shop is also a dealer for England. But when I was in there buying some pipe I overheard the owner telling a lady on the phone that they did sell them anymore since HD and Lowes sold them so I didn't even bother with them. They seem to have Harmanitis in that store.
 
Thank you Brother Bart for the information. Do you have to clear a air path in the center of the E-W load, I sometimes have to with the Century Hearth and it can be a pain. The only blower I want is the stove top heat powered one, besides with the way my house is built and the fact that the stove will be centrally located I really don't need it.
I am not crazy about shipping The Englander off to VA if I have an issue with it though, So the Quad, PE Summit and the VC(although after reading the thread "Trouble" I am really leary of VC)
Riddle me this on the Summit though, Have can they claim to heat 3000 sq. ft with a 3.0 c.ft box and englander claim 2200 sq.ft. with a 3.5? Does anyone have a answer on that?



BrotherBart said:
It sounds like a 30-NC would be a good stove for the application Codeman.

Mine is installed half-in and half-out of my fireplace. Not the typical installation for a large freestanding stove but I wanted to try that in place of the large insert it replaced. Works really well. The house is a 2,500 sq. ft. standard center hall colonel with four major rooms downstairs, formal living and dining in the front and family room and kitchen to the rear. Four bedrooms upstairs. The fireplace is located on one end of the house in the family room. The stove has clearance to the fireplace firebox of 5.5 inches on each side and four on the top with a galvanized block-off plate and a double wall flex liner 21' straight up.

I burn it most of the time in a front to rear N/S wood configuration, but the most efficient burn is side-side E/W because of the way the primary air input is designed and the the side to side config of the four secondary burn tubes. Either way I run it between 450 and 500 surface temp. For this house and with the way the blower works that is sufficient to keep this place in the seventies temp wise at all outside temperatures which range from the low teens to the mid-twenties in the coldest months at night. As far as burn times go a average night load goes in around nine-o'clock and consists of forty or so pounds of red and/or white oak medium and small splits. It takes around thirty or forty-five minutes to get the burn levelled off. I have no idea what stove top temps it maintains since the blower causes the thermometer temp to read low when it is blowing across the top of the stove but it reads 400 or so as I mosey off to bed which is actually around five hundred without the blower on. Several times I haven't gotten up until nine the next morning and the blower was always still running which indicates the lower side of the stove body, where I have the Stove-Stat attached, hasn't gone below 90 degrees yet and there are just enough coals to get a new fire going. One night I didn't use the fan and since it was supposed to warm up the next day I didn't reload in the morning. That day the stove top temp was still a little over a hundred degrees at three o'clock that afternoon. Seventeen hours after the stove was loaded and a few stubborn coals were still in the ash. Ideal wood length is sixteen to eighteen inches even though you can put in 20" splits side to side but the fit would be too tight and it would not allow sufficient air circulation for a good burn.

The 30-NC tosses a ton of heat. It should given the large size of the stove body. It also radiates heat for a good while after the fire goes down as it should given a 455 pound mass. Where I have it located the brick mass of the fireplace holds and radiates a lot of heat also. The twin squirrel cage blower on the stove is the key to good heating in this house. It pulls air in from under the stove at the bottom of the rear heat shield and fires it straight out across the top of the stove into the room. Here that takes it right to that center hall and up the stairs. There is usually only a degree or two difference between the room the stove is in and the temp in the hall upstairs.

The stove isn't perfect. There was the issue of the flubbed weld on the secondary manifold but a dab of furnace cement seems to have taken care of it just fine. Much easier than dragging the beast out and hauling it back. And with my pretty strong draft the two ceramic fiber board baffle panels tend to move a little apart during a burn. I am discussing this with Mike.

All in all it is one hell of a wood stove. 1/4" top, 3/16" body and 110 pounds of firebrick. And a huge glass for oogling the fire. I think if you placed one in that central location where the Century is now you would end up with all of the heat you could handle in that place. Convection is really strong even without the blower. I was concerned about the blower assembly getting too hot if the fan wasn't running given that it is trapped behind the stove inside the fireplace firebox. What I have found out is that, even without the fan running, convection through the heat shield is sufficient to keep the fan assembly cool to the touch even with the stove running at a steady 400-500 so a lot of hot air is moving out into the room even without the fan running.

If you have any questions, just let me know.
Click to expand...
 
I think Mike could clarify but I would bet that, in the off chance warranty work is needed, you could return it to the store that sold it to you and let them handle it. I am the only person that I personally know of that has ever had a warranty issue with one of their wood stoves. (I can hear Mike thinking now: "Yeah and he had to be on that damned Forum!") And a through online search for issues comes up dry.

As to the sq. footage, well, everybody seems to agree that manufacturer claims BS it about 25-50%. Looks like ESW just tells ya the actual number which just happens to be real close to 75% of 3,000. I am here to tell ya it'll heat that much. Maybe the Canadians are measuring in metric units or something. :) It probably boils down the the BTU numbers. PE claims they got the Summit to toss 97,000 btu in the lab and Bob says he got the 30 up to 75,000 on cordwood. I met him. A straight shooter and I believe his number. I ain't gonna ever run it that hot so I will take his word for it.

Another thing that impressed me with England is that they don't publish burn time numbers. I don't believe any of them anyway. Given a decent design burn time is totally dependent on me and the wood I shove in the stove.

PS: I bet every stove you mention says in the warranty that you are responsible for getting it back to the dealer or manufacturer for warranty issues. If you buy from a local dealer get it very clear how it would be handled.
 
Riddle me this on the Summit though, Have can they claim to heat 3000 sq. ft with a 3.0 c.ft box and englander claim 2200 sq.ft. with a 3.5? Does anyone have a answer on that?
Click to expand...

I think it has to do with one being more of a radiant heater compared to convection. Shrouded steel stoves are kind of unique in this as they are true convec heaters. ie. the Napoleon also a shrouded steel stove claims 3500 sqft from a 3cuft firebox
 
On the E/W and the air path thing, yes. The stove needs a way to circulate air to the back to drive gases forward for secondary burn so a one or two inch trough needs to be cleared. Not needed N/S. Just let the primary air shoot between two splits in the bottom center.

Funny note. Take your Century manual and lay it beside your computer. Go to the Englander site and pull up the manual for the 13-NC or the 30-NC. Now play a little game called "Count How Much Of the Manuals are Word for Word Verbatum".
 
LOL My Century "manual" is is 3 folded pamphlet style pages, 5 if you include the 2 "other languages" pages. I saw the Englander manual online and received more info from it than mine including tips on how to use my stove. Whoops I forgot to add another page.. for the stove paint advertisement. After I finish this season out I intend on giving a full review of the Century on this forum. When I bought it was hard to find info on it. I really would like to wait another 2 years for the opportunity to burn actual seasoned properly and stored properly wood in it. So i will have to add an appendix or sequel. I read all the posts where stacked wood is like money in the bank, why is it so hard for "woodman" to feel the same way and actually cover it? <------ minirant, sorry


BrotherBart said:
On the E/W and the air path thing, yes. The stove needs a way to circulate air to the back to drive gases forward for secondary burn so a one or two inch trough needs to be cleared. Not needed N/S. Just let the primary air shoot between two splits in the bottom center.

Funny note. Take your Century manual and lay it beside your computer. Go to the Englander site and pull up the manual for the 13-NC or the 30-NC. Now play a little game called "Count How Much Of the Manuals are Word for Word Verbatum".
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the reply, to refresh my science terminology; radiant heat is heating objects, convection is the movement of fluids. How do shrouded stoves use convection. If that means they are double walled, isn't that for insulating properties? I am kinda confused on that.

Edit - I just looked at the Pacific Energy brochure and found the answer. Is the convection aspect just on the back of the stove?

Gunner said:
Riddle me this on the Summit though, Have can they claim to heat 3000 sq. ft with a 3.0 c.ft box and englander claim 2200 sq.ft. with a 3.5? Does anyone have a answer on that?
Click to expand...

I think it has to do with one being more of a radiant heater compared to convection. Shrouded steel stoves are kind of unique in this as they are true convec heaters. ie. the Napoleon also a shrouded steel stove claims 3500 sqft from a 3cuft firebox
Click to expand...
 
BB im going to have to put you on the sales staff;) codeman, if you want to find out more about our models just give me a yell at the office 800-245-6489 8-5 m/f or pull up our website www.englanderstoves.com just so you know i usually try to make it a personal policy not to play salesman on the forum, but if you pm me, or contact me at the office i'll be happy to help any way i can
 
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