Is gassification right for a newbie

[Jason762]

I have been reading the threads and watching videos on gassification boilers and don't know if its the right choice for me. I love the concept but am a little intimidated by the whole process. Most of what I read and watch is like a foreign language to me. I currently have been heating a 2 story 2400 sq. ft house with an Osburn stove. It has done me well but I now have a baby and am looking for more consistent heat throughout my house. I also am looking to do away with the smoky smell that comes with a wood stove. Now I have no problem splitting and stacking 4 or 5 cords per year, I already do that. Its the whole process of this new technology that I don't understand. I am not looking to become an expert in this field. What I want is a wood burning device that I can tie into my existing hot water baseboard system, and feed wood to keep my entire house at around 70*. I plan on having someone else do the install (not sure if I can hire a plumbing buddy of mine or if this install requires someone with expertise in these systems). I just want a simple system, similar to what I do now, start fire, feed it wood as needed, continue on with my day. Is this the system for me or should I look elsewhere? Thanks

 

[WoodNotOil]

Jason, you are definitely in the right place. Burning wood in a gasifier is not difficult at all, but is slightly different from burning wood in other applications. Gassifiers need DRY wood first of all. Second you are looking for an EFFICIENT burn and not a LONG burn. Your plumbing buddy could probably do the install if you worked your design out here first. There are a lot of ways to tie in a second heat source and some work way better than others. Installers are often out of their comfort zone with these unless they specialize in them. I would suggest buying or building some heat storage into your system for convenience for when you fire the boiler and for domestic hot water year round. Let us know any specific questions you have. - WNO

 

[Frozen Canuck]

My opinion is that gasification with ample storage is for most that heat with wood. I came here like most with more questions than answers, looking for a better way to heat all of our buildings with wood, tired of the smoke/pollution & burning all that wood. I found this site & have to say the folks here are great, plenty of straight forward answers to questions that a "been there done that" person might consider silly but they give you a honest answer every time. Plenty of pro's here too that are willing to advise, lend their knowledge. I can say that I don't envy all the reading you willl have to do to get up to speed. If I recall there were 211 pages when I started reading posts that dealt with various models, read all the posts that dealt with the performance of any boiler. Yes a very large headache but well worth it, as I am down to just 3 possible choices after I eliminated all the models/brands that reported ongoing/continual problems that I would be unwilling to live with. If I am going to have a 20+ year relationship with a gassification boiler I want to make the right choice. Like you I want a simple system, to me that means one I don't have to fuss with, I load it, light it, close the door & go to work elsewhere, it does not have flaps to adjust continually, dampers that stick shut, smoke that rolls out in my face when I open the door, or a door that sticks shut, as these are all signs of poorly thought through design. Suggest you develop your own list of what your willing to live with as well as what you are not willing to live without & short list the boilers that make that list. You can have what you want it just takes time, patience & research. Happy reading.

 

[jebatty]

Short answer is "yes." An experienced installer, some storage to offer greater efficiency during burns and some usable stored heat between burns, looks ideal for you. Keep in mind that although somewhat new to the wood heating scene in the US, quality gasification boilers are common in Europe, well-proven, and highly dependable, efficient, and long lasting.

Three seasons ago I was a newbie with no experience at all with hot water heat. I did the install myself, because that is my nature. Many mistakes, none serious or dangerous, yet first season had a system that performed well. Now it performs excellently.

 

[altheating]

Jason, burning wood is burning wood. The only difference is the appliance that you burn it in. If you are going to burn wood you might just as well burn it in an appliance that is as efficient as it can be. Four plus years ago I switched from a very low efficiency OWB to the Econoburn gasification unit. It sets in the same spot in my wood shed as the old smoker did, uses far less wood and does the same thing, it heats my house and domestic hot water. Is there differences, sure there is, way less wood to cut and split and stack. Way less ash to mess with. A chimney that builds no creosote. Neighbors who think I stopped burning wood because there is no smoke!
In your case you will switch from an inside unit to a gasification boiler, you will get the added benefit of having free domestic hot water for the seven months of the heating season. If you install the gasser in a wood shed or go outdoors you will also have that extra piece of mind knowing all the chance of fire in the house from a wood burning stove goes away. Mother will sleep much better too! Keeping all the mess outside of the house is a nice touch also. You won't be disappointed if you go gasification. It's not rocket science, they have been around a long time, post WWII.

 

[webie]

Jason, I agree with every one's posts. When I installed my solo 60 I was only able to locate one other in the state of Wisconsin. True I had been burning wood for since I had owned the house in 1978 .
I know I have had a whole bunch of experience as I started with a wood stove , then to an add on hot air furnace , then a total remodel and hot water heat with just a regular inside wood boiler , to the tarm solo 60 I have now.
The real reason I bought the Solo 60 was first I needed the out put of at least 140,000 BTU since I had put and addition on my home and my old boiler even though it was keeping up ( had to fire every 4-6 hours ) it was at the tune of 12 full cord a year. Since most of my wood is less than Ideal I stepped up to the Solo 60 of 200,000 BTU . Now knowing what I know I would have not had to do that but oh well , Id rather be bigger then not enough , That's part of the beauty of having Thermal storage it is somewhat forgiving if you have excess capacity .
There were no forums like this and in fact know one really knew much of anything about these . I needed a bigger boiler and I was hoping it would reduce my wood usage That is why I bought it . I am now at 8 cord a year and heating my domestic hot water year around , In fact 2003 was the last propane bill I paid .
I can honestly say when I went to go get a plumbing quote I had drew up the plans for tying it in and it was only a fluke that I ended up with storage because of a larger than expected tax return , otherwise I would have gone with out . The plumber I ended up with him and me finally agreed on this , I would pay 10% over parts cost plus labor per hour and he would send a guy out to my home with a whole van full of parts and build what ever I wanted . The deal was made and the tarm was plumbed in in the august of 2001.
I had so many people that tried to talk me out of it and put in an outside boiler you couldn't even imagine . I didn't want to go out in the cold was the real reason I didn't. But now I am so glad I never did .I actually have a really good friend of mine that put in an OWB the same time I put in this and at first all he could do is rave about it now all he does is complain at how much wood it burns .
My system works pretty good , Its not excellent , I know it can be better and I have some planned changes coming up but that's minor and its the beauty of this forum that I feel really good about my upcoming changes .
You have alot of help at your reading and finger tips here .
Go with a good gasification boiler , you will never be sorry about your choice . There is only really one big part you need to really know about these .
You need dry smaller split wood , any other adjustments just usually increases or decreases your efficiency .
Other than that its just a very efficient wood stove .
Webie

 

[stee6043]

My EKO 40 was my first wood burner and my first real "plumbing project". If you like to read and ask loads of questions you'll be just fine. For what it's worth I think the operation of the unit will be a LOT easier for you if you do the install yourself. You'll learn a lot during install that otherwise may seem like black magic if you don't.

If you choose black pipe for your system there is zero pipe sweating involved. Simple, straight forward and I'd highly recommend it....DIY is the only way to go....

 

[SolarAndWood]

How well does the stove heat the house? I struggle with putting $10-15K into a somewhat complex system when the relatively simple steel box does the job. Ridding ourselves of the propane water heater and eliminating the mess from 8 cord of wood moving through the living room are the primary motivators. It would take a lot of propane for hot water and supplemental electric heat to ever justify it financially and we haven't had the electric baseboards hooked up for 3 years. That said, we will likely have a boiler in the near future.

 

[flyingcow]

As posted above, easy to operate. My units next door,in garage, storage is in basement. I spend 10 to 15 minutes splittin' kindlin and staring fire, than fill fire box and leave. I don't revisit the boiler again until 24hrs later. Well, correction, i will go back out in the subzero nights if i think i need to, but it has to be well below zero. Clean tubes in unit about every 2 weeks, shovel a few ashes out in between. You already burn wood, so you're not a newbie to wood. only draw back is this could run as high as $10,000 maybe even on to 12 or 15. But there are many ways to DIY, especially with a buddy in the business. He'll benefit by using your install as good experience. Also as pointed out this is the site to be at. a really good bunch of people on this site! Never be bashful about asking questions.

Time to do a heat load calc.

 

[Jason762]

Thank you for all the prompt replies. I guess I'll start with the questions. First off my plan was to go with an Econoburn 150 without storage. The unit costs around $5500 so my question is how will the start up costs get up to between $10-15K? Is it the pipes and fittings that run up the cost or is it the labor involved? Also is there a way to find recommended plumbers/installers who have experience installing these systems? Im in western CT right off I-84. As for starting fires, right now I have to start with newspaper and kindling then slowly add firewood until I get it up to temp. I have to leave the door cracked open as well. This whole process usually takes about a half hour of constant attention until its up and running. Is starting a fire in a gasifier any easier? Once I have it up to temp. I can pack it full of wood and go to bed at 10pm and get up at 6am and there are still plenty of hot coals to get it started again. Does these boilers have the same burn time? Thanks

 

[flyingcow]

As far as price, there are alot of variables. But i can't list 'em all, someone a lot faster typer(is that a word? i think not)and someone with a lot more knowledge than me. But as far as start time, i'm at the most 15 minutes, closer to 10 if i really hurry. as you know these units have draft fans, makes for a quick start. But my set up has storage, so my unit runs wide open heating storage/house and than goes out till next day, or whenever i need heat.You'll catch on quick as how big a fire to make and all that stuff. Be patient, others will chime in and answer your questions. Just curious, what do you have heating your baseboard now? Gas, oil? How many btu's is the furnace? I was burning about 1000 gals of oil yr round. Now i'm using no more than 7 cord. Thats heating my DHW in the summer and also we're keeping house a lot warmer than we were when burning oil.

 

[Tony H]

I had never burned wood except a little in the fireplace when I bought my EKO after doing a bunch of research on gasifiers , inserts, reg boilers and outdoor boilers I got lots of good info here. I installed the unit myself with help from a nephew who does HVAC and commercial boilers but had never connected a wood boiler. The wood boiler is the same plumbing wise as any other boiler other than the fact I put mine in a shed 75' from the house. I had never done much plumbing but with help from the gang here my local plumbing supply shop and nephew came up with a design and it all works well. The first year burning I learned alot both here ,from a neighbor ,and by trial and error and spent some time fiddling around with the air setting but now pretty much leave them alone and just throw in wood 2 or 3 times a day. With my schedule I load at 10-11 pm then 6 am and 3pm I adjust the load amount and type of wood by the weather and have a good bed of coals to keep going in fact this season I think I have only started a fire from scratch 5 or 6 times and twice I shut the boiler down for a day or more once to fix a door hinge and replace the gasket and once for a trip. I do have to admit like most of the folks around here I do alot of my own repairs , remodeling , and stuff like that. If something breaks around the house and your first thought is who do I call you may not want to do the install but that doesn't mean you should not buy a gasifier just have your pal install it then it's not that hard to keep it running .

 

[stee6043]

Thank you for all the prompt replies. I guess I'll start with the questions. First off my plan was to go with an Econoburn 150 without storage. The unit costs around $5500 so my question is how will the start up costs get up to between $10-15K? Is it the pipes and fittings that run up the cost or is it the labor involved? Also is there a way to find recommended plumbers/installers who have experience installing these systems? Im in western CT right off I-84. As for starting fires, right now I have to start with newspaper and kindling then slowly add firewood until I get it up to temp. I have to leave the door cracked open as well. This whole process usually takes about a half hour of constant attention until its up and running. Is starting a fire in a gasifier any easier? Once I have it up to temp. I can pack it full of wood and go to bed at 10pm and get up at 6am and there are still plenty of hot coals to get it started again. Does these boilers have the same burn time? Thanks

If you perform the install yourself you should be at or below $15k if you include thermal storage. I suspect you'd be closer to $10k with a very basic install, no storage, if you hired out the installation. The cost of smoke stack, plumbing, pumbs, expansion tanks, heat exchangers, etc and so on are where the costs really pile up.

I can typically start my boiler in 5-10 minutes but that's not "gassifying". I typically walk away after the initial start for another 10-20 minutes before returning to close the bypass and turn on the fan. So I typically tell folks it takes me a half our or less to get it running. But only 5-10 of that is actually me standing at the boiler...

 

[leaddog]

Thank you for all the prompt replies. I guess I'll start with the questions. First off my plan was to go with an Econoburn 150 without storage. The unit costs around $5500 so my question is how will the start up costs get up to between $10-15K? Is it the pipes and fittings that run up the cost or is it the labor involved? Also is there a way to find recommended plumbers/installers who have experience installing these systems? Im in western CT right off I-84. As for starting fires, right now I have to start with newspaper and kindling then slowly add firewood until I get it up to temp. I have to leave the door cracked open as well. This whole process usually takes about a half hour of constant attention until its up and running. Is starting a fire in a gasifier any easier? Once I have it up to temp. I can pack it full of wood and go to bed at 10pm and get up at 6am and there are still plenty of hot coals to get it started again. Does these boilers have the same burn time? Thanks

cost can go up for several reasons depending on your install. If you install it out side in a shed or out building you can expext the underground lines to cost $10 to $20 per ft. Running 1 1/4 pex or double 1in pex o2 barrier and having it foamed will run about $10 to $14 a ft and I feel is the best way. Valves, fittings, and other hardware depends on your installation but can run up. You can keep theat down buy buying on ebay etc but you have to know what to buy and it takes a while to get. Storage can run up the cost depending on what you do and how. I used 4 used propane tanks and feel propane tanks are the best way if you have a place to put them. Tanks can be bought depending if you can find them for from $200 to $500. I have tanks here in Michigan for $250 ea. Storage isn't nessasary but if you read here you will find it is very desireable. Then there is the labor and that can be the bigest cost. If you can do alot of it your self that will keep the cost way down.
leaddog

 

[Nofossil]

In my mind there's no question that a gasifier with storage (and a good control system) is the way to go if you can manage it. Also no question that there's a longer learning curve, more complexity, and more cost in this approach.

However, once you get it up and running and get familiar with it, it's a piece of cake. Really. I've been building a fire every other day for some time now, and at my convenience. I've burned less than four cords of wood since October, and my wood has been mostly real junk - punky poplar, white pine, and beechnut. That's heated my house, DHW, and a big outdoor hot tub.

Some of us are obsessive tinkerers, never happy if we think there's another percentage point to be found. Don't be intimidated - you don't need to be a fanatic at that level. Take advantage of what others have learned and find your own comfort level.

In addition to the plumbing stickies at the top of this forum, I have some resources on my site - link in my signature below. In particular, the 'Choices' page is designed for folks at your stage in the decision process.

Good luck - you're on the right path.

 

[Bad Wolf]

Jason I'm down in Colchester if you are ever in the area and want to see a set up. I put in a TARM excel 2000 in the fall of '08, with 1200 gallons of unpressurized storage. So far it’s worked out pretty good. There are some things I would do differently if I were to do it again.

I tied my boiler into the existing baseboard hot water system. There are a lot of diagrams out there to show you the layout. I followed the drawings from Bioheat and it worked out fine.

 

[ihookem]

A gassiifer is much fussier than an OWB and you need to split the wood smaller and dry it out better. After that a gassifier is the better idea. I only have an EKO 25, I paid 3500 dollars after fed rebate, darn cheap compared to the Central boiler 5036 I was going to buy for 6k ( my neighbor loves his 5036 though but burns twice the wood I do.) It takes a while to figure out the "personality " of a gassifier but once you get it it's easy. I would have figured it out a lot faster if I would have just started out with dry wood. The drier the better!! If ya say oh it's should be dry enough, it most likely isn't. That will help you a lot. You will be so amazed how much heat even a small EKO 25 puts out. So far I burned 3 cords or a little less with hot water.

 

[dvand]

It's actually an interesting discussion at what point does it make sense to get a 15k rig. On a purely financial basis the payback period for a reasonably well insulated house even in my fairly cold climate seems to be well over 15 years.

 

[WoodNotOil]

It's actually an interesting discussion at what point does it make sense to get a 15k rig. On a purely financial basis the payback period for a reasonably well insulated house even in my fairly cold climate seems to be well over 15 years.

Most 15k installs here include heat storage which allows use in the shoulder season and for DHW in the off season. I for one burn exactly ZERO fossil fuel year round now to heat my home and dhw. A very well insulated house would only need a small boiler and small amount of storage by comparison and would cost less. Most find the payback period to be much less than you are suggesting. I know that my entire system cost the equivalent of what I was paying for less than three years of fossil fuel...

 

[dvand]

Don't get me wrong I'm new to the idea and was all enthused until I ran some numbers. I have a modestly sized fairly well insulated two storey house. It's estimated annual heat load is about 50MMBTU. If my math is right (big assumption) that would translate to somewhere around 3 cords of wood (tamarac is available around here for about $140/cord).

3 * 140 = $420; I heat with electricity at .063/kwh so for 50MMBTU I pay about $920 a net difference of about $500/yr. Of course this excludes hot water heating which might be another 16MMBTU or around 1 more cord about a net difference of around 700/yr.

15,000/700 = 21 years.

All calculations exclude inflation in energy prices but i'm not sure how to guesstimate how much wood might go up year over year?

Are my assumptions out to lunch?

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Don't get me wrong I'm new to the idea and was all enthused until I ran some numbers. I have a modestly sized fairly well insulated two storey house. It's estimated annual heat load is about 50MMBTU. If my math is right (big assumption) that would translate to somewhere around 3 cords of wood (tamarac is available around here for about $140/cord).

3 * 140 = $420; I heat with electricity at .063/kwh so for 50MMBTU I pay about $920 a net difference of about $500/yr. Of course this excludes hot water heating which might be another 16MMBTU or around 1 more cord about a net difference of around 700/yr.

15,000/700 = 21 years.

All calculations exclude inflation in energy prices but i'm not sure how to guesstimate how much wood might go up year over year?

Are my assumptions out to lunch?

I don't believe too many people here buy their wood. I've got all the wood I can burn that is just thrown by the side of the road etc. Free wood is constantly advertised on Craigslist around here. Free wood + $6500 total cost = fast payback, Randy

 

[rkusek]

Don't get me wrong I'm new to the idea and was all enthused until I ran some numbers. I have a modestly sized fairly well insulated two storey house. It's estimated annual heat load is about 50MMBTU. If my math is right (big assumption) that would translate to somewhere around 3 cords of wood (tamarac is available around here for about $140/cord).

3 * 140 = $420; I heat with electricity at .063/kwh so for 50MMBTU I pay about $920 a net difference of about $500/yr. Of course this excludes hot water heating which might be another 16MMBTU or around 1 more cord about a net difference of around 700/yr.

15,000/700 = 21 years.

All calculations exclude inflation in energy prices but i'm not sure how to guesstimate how much wood might go up year over year?

Are my assumptions out to lunch?

I bought an EKO 40 in Dec 2008 and will have over $10k (probably 12-13k) in mine by the time I finish the 1000gal storage this spring/summer. Because of my slow install, we have used the heat pump (forced air) this winter and I was shocked that the Dec-Jan electric bill (highest) was only $258. This may have been the coldest winter I have ever seen and my electric bill from Oct-Mar will be around that ~$900 range and that is everything (lights, refrig, etc.). The power company winter rate is 0.342 /kwh after you exceed a base amount of electricity to benefit those who heat with these heat pumps. This thing was still putting out heat at 0* F albeit running almost continuously and below 0 the resistance backup would come on and off to help it maintain 70*. Something to point out on the heat pump setups is that the all electric versions will continue working down to the 0* range running in tandem as necessary to maintaint the setting. Heat pumps with gas/propane backup shut down at around 25* and basically you have just a gas furnace. My dad spends about double ($500-600 in Dec/Jan/Feb) a month heating an remodeled farmhouse 1/2 the size of ours but probably not as well insulated using the propane setup. The air handler running more frequently (blowing lukewarm air) also does a much better job of keeping the home evenly heated than I ever would have imagined. Our previous home had a new high efficiency gas unit that did the hot/cold/hot/cold routine and dried out your nasal passages. I can remember feeling cold thinking it should be kicking on soon but then 10 minutes later feeling too hot and my nose would be burning from the hot air blowing around. If it weren't for the cooling requirements here I would went with all radiant floor. I may still try some radiant in the tiled areas althought he plenum HX will remain the main method of heating for now.

All in all my payback at the current rates is probably around 15 years as well and I may not have even done the EKO boiler knowing what I know now. However, it is nice to have a cozy well heated pole barn to work in with just 1 fire to tend. The storage will also allow me to handle all the fire tending duties myself even working the 12-13 hr shifts which will make things easy for my wife. Another thing to consider is that electric rates are likely to increase drastically, probably double or triple, over the next 10 years when the Cap & Trade stuff takes hold and the costs get passed down to the consumers. Unless they could impose or enforce a wood tax (not likely) the payback on these setup is likely to occur much quicker than what we think now. Like Eric Johnson's sig says "I like a source of fuel where the price, supply and quality are controlled by one guy: me. ". Now we just need to find a way to make our own gasoline.

 

[dvand]

I had visions of free wood when I installed my fireplace but that doesnt seem to be a reality around here. No doubt if I had a woodlot the payback would be a much different calculation.

 

[stee6043]

It's actually an interesting discussion at what point does it make sense to get a 15k rig. On a purely financial basis the payback period for a reasonably well insulated house even in my fairly cold climate seems to be well over 15 years.

Is this were true I don't think this board would exist nor would there be a market for gassers in the US. WIth my $13-14k setup my payback is 5 years, +/-, assuming gas costs stay the same. If gas prices go up, my payback goes down...

Two things worth considering when calculating "payback": 1.) Most woodburners do not pay for wood. 2.) Most wood burners keep their homes much warmer when burning wood vs when heating with gas/fuel oil (this is a benefit, so the cost has to be accounted for).

 

[SolarAndWood]

It seems there are a few discussions going on here.

First, does wood make sense as a fuel locally and for your house specifically? Our house was set up for propane and electricity when we bought it 5 yrs ago. The previous owners were using 4000 gallons of propane a year and the contract price was $4.25/gallon. Not sure why, but propane prices are much higher here than I hear reported in the midwest. Also, we don't have access to natural gas. So comparing fuel costs and because of the fuel consumption in the house, investing in a wood burner was a no brainer for us even paying market rate for wood to be delivered. That stove/chimney was paid for in a few months. This really depends on your heat load and locally available fuels.

Second, does it make sense to produce your own wood. I like control of the quality, cost and have access to free wood from a network that has grown since we started burning. Now that I am set up with dump trailer, splitter and a couple saws, production is about as easy as it gets. I trade about a day of labor and $15 to get a cord of wood from someplace in the city to stacked in my shed. Given that it is not subject to income related taxes and I enjoy doing it, this is worth it to me.

Lastly, if you have a stove that heats the house, does more even heat, dhw and no mess in the house justify the significant capital investment and complexity of the boiler? I could significantly reduce the dhw expense by replacing the older propane water heater. Then, reinstall the electric baseboards to achieve more even heat. Or, make the investment in the boiler and distribution system to eliminate dependence on outside fuel for heat and dhw. This would also eliminate the mess from 8 cord of wood being burned in the living room and the steel box that requires the blowers running when it is cold/blowing out.

My system will likely never pay for itself compared to where I am but I will likely do it for the other benefits. If I needed to run two stoves to heat the house or even load a stove more than twice a day, it wouldn't even be a question.