Is Vermont Castings abandoning their customers? No warranties on units in the field?

[webbie]

The intent of the thread was to flush out rumors which were reported by two stove dealers (VC) as well as a long term employee of the company. Based on the written agreement and other such information, it appears that there is a basis of fact in the statement that the warranties of older stoves are not being honored.

We could debate the pros and cons of materials and stoves in another thread...and have already. Personally, I would like to see a new and improved VC.....improved being the key word here. If they are leaving tens of thousands of customers behind to make a few more bucks, that is not a good start.

I would be glad to post here or a totally new thread....any response from the new owners as to the exact situation. In fact, they could post it themselves.

The good news, if we can call it that, is that the stoves in the pipeline NOW will probably be fully covered....meaning you can buy a new one with full warranty. The bad news is that if you used your stove for 2 years and have problems, you are not legally covered...and reports are that the new company does not intend to adopt a "full coverage as promised (with original warranty)" policy.

 

[TruePatriot]

tradergordo,

I was "veering off in a lot of directions," but I do try to stand up for correct word usage, (as much for my own comprehension as anyone else's--LOL). When more than one person seemed to imply that the word "rumor" meant, by definition, "untrue," well, I said what I said.

And I did know that V.C. made (makes?) both cast and steel stoves--you'll note that the insert I linked to in my post, (about the collapsed Dutchwest insert that the company suggested the owner weld, himself), was to a steel-plate Dutchwest.

However, I did not know that some cast iron stoves are now being made without stove cement. That seems like a step in the right direction. As an amateur welder myself, I do know plate steel can warp and welds can break. Both would be a PITA, particularly the warping, which could result in a ruined stove—hopefully, such wholesale destruction would only result from an overfire (knock on wood three times), which could ruin any stove, if severe enough.

I do hear you re: this:

I like the fact that I can completely take my stove apart if I have to, and replace a single part.

That is an advantage. I guess the gamble comes down to which design is more likely to require such repairs, right? We all go with our own comfort levels, at some level, I guess….

You could be right about the “grooves and curves” radiating heat better—I’m neither a thermodynamicist nor an engineer but personally, I have a different feeling about the aesthetics of most cast iron stoves, from yours. I will admit that some enameled cast stoves are attractive, but I find the enameled steel plate of the P.E.’s and Napolean’s to be even more so. Again, personal choice, right?

I do agree with your logic here, however:

But if I were buying again right now, I might go with a cheap steel NC-30 which reportedly works well, has very low emissions, big firebox, and is built to last with low maintenance.

After all, I bought one.

Craig,

Re: this:

The intent of the thread was to flush out rumors which were reported by two stove dealers (VC) as well as a long term employee of the company.

I guess I thought that the title of your thread (”Is Vermont Castings abandoning their customers? If so, DON’T BUY …” was meant, in some way, as a warning or piece of advice to potential stove buyers. Did I read too much into the “all caps” usage of the last two words? LOL I was simply trying to say I supported your concerns.

I think it’s great that

The intent of the thread was to flush out rumors which were reported by two stove dealers (VC) as well as a long term employee of the company.

I think I kind of got that too. If I failed to convey that, I do apologize.

I will admit, however, that my bringing up the old debate about stove construction materials may have shed more confusion than light. To my line of reasoning, however, it was related, as I saw your post (especially the title) as bringing up reasons to be leery of V.C. right now. To me, stove-cemented-construction is just one more reason to be leery, but it was not intended has a “hijack” of your thread. Sorry if you saw it that way, and apologies for my ignorance re: (current) Dutchwest construction methods(—thanks again, tradergordo, for informing me that Dutchwest no longer uses stove cement in their cast stoves.)

I’m sure we all want to see “a new and improved VC.” As I said, I’m hoping for the company’s survival, with warranties and US-based jobs intact.

Fingers crossed.

 

[webbie]

Actually, I WAS trying to warn potential customers of two things:

1. The new company does not legally have to cover any products sold by the "old" company. This appears to be true to some extent...although it is my guess that the new company will 100% cover all product in the pipeline (otherwise their dealers will simply return it, etc.)

2. That a company which would decide to skirt the goodwill obligations which MADE the brand - might be a brand to think twice about.

There have been a LOT of takeovers in the hearth industry over my 3 decades in the business, and very few (if any) that I remember where a change left the old warranties invalid. As a dealer (for many brands, including VC), this sort of action would have probably caused me to drop the line.

I'm fairly certain VC will make a comeback....but I hope it is by returning to their roots of customer service as well as industry-leading products.

 

[Eddie24361]

I moved this to a new post

Stove and Hearth Questions - Reposted in a new thread

 

[Metal]

If I were you Ed I would start a new thread so your post doesn't get buried in this one.

 

[BrotherBart]

What kinda gets lost in all of this stuff is that there isn't a company "Vermont Castings" anymore. There actually hasn't been since CFM bought'em. There is a company named Monessen Hearth Systems in Kentucky that owns a foundry and assembly/enameling plant in Vermont where they now make stoves with the Vermont Castings brand.

They did not buy the company. They bought some of the assets.

 

[tradergordo]

What kinda gets lost in all of this stuff is that there isn't a company "Vermont Castings" anymore.

Eh, not really. Many companies do business under multiple names, in legalese, this is known as "DBA" or "doing business as". You certainly could not legally start your own new company using the name "Vermont Castings". Technically its CFM doing business under the vermont castings name, but does it really matter?

 

[cmcramer]

FYI: My VC dealer did warrantee work on my cat-VC Encore on July 16. No charge.

At that time, he cautioned me that future warantee work was 'up in the air.'

 

[BrotherBart]

Monessen letter to distributors and dealers concerning warranties.

http://tinyurl.com/6ejb9j

 

[Metal]

That pretty much clears it up. But I thought Elk said..."the current CEO of CFM has unequivocally stated “As long as the doors are open in Bethel we will be honoring warranties” I guess the statement is right, it just didn't say which warranties they would be honoring.

 

[tkirk22]

Monessen letter to distributors and dealers concerning warranties.

http://tinyurl.com/6ejb9j

BB: haha. You need to try harder. That letter still has the mass mailing tags on it which means it has not been linked to a database yet. The salutation is "Mr" and even in the 80s we didn't do that. The mailing tags are likely wrong: one is [Customer Name] and the other is [Name]. The tag [City, State Zipcode] should have 3 separate fields. It hasn't been signed and that means to me that it hasn't yet been mailed.

Extra bonus points for printing it and scanning it to make it look more legit.

I did LOL at "Quite Simply, we believe it is the right thing to do."

 

[johnnywarm]

Monessen letter to distributors and dealers concerning warranties.

http://tinyurl.com/6ejb9j

BB: haha. You need to try harder. That letter still has the mass mailing tags on it which means it has not been linked to a database yet. The salutation is "Mr" and even in the 80s we didn't do that. The mailing tags are likely wrong: one is [Customer Name] and the other is [Name]. The tag [City, State Zipcode] should have 3 separate fields. It hasn't been signed and that means to me that it hasn't yet been mailed.

Extra bonus points for printing it and scanning it to make it look more legit.

I did LOL at "Quite Simply, we believe it is the right thing to do."

I thought it was just executive BS anyways.

 

[BrotherBart]

Extra bonus points for printing it and scanning it to make it look more legit.

:lol:

 

[tkirk22]

Extra bonus points for printing it and scanning it to make it look more legit.

:lol:

The thing is...they may just use that letter. Whoever wrote it (and I'm not saying it was you) ;-) did a good job of capturing the marketing/PR BS that people like to hear. Remind me to buy you a beer sometime.

 

[tradergordo]

Monessen letter to distributors and dealers concerning warranties.

http://tinyurl.com/6ejb9j

Oh man, that letter is depressing (and hysterically funny at the same time). Its like they want everyone to jump up and down with joy that they won't be honoring warranties on anything bought before this year. Wouldn't it be illegal for them to deny warranties for products they sold after they acquired the company? I don't think anyone was ever concerned about that part. Oh well... disappointing to say the least. Rumor confirmed in writing.

 

[webbie]

Monessen letter to distributors and dealers concerning warranties.

http://tinyurl.com/6ejb9j

BB, did that letter come from a reputable source?
You didn't make it up, did you?

 

[BrotherBart]

Monessen letter to distributors and dealers concerning warranties.

http://tinyurl.com/6ejb9j

BB, did that letter come from a reputable source?
You didn't make it up, did you?

As reputable as they come. Got better things to do around here than make up letters. It is a FAX machine to email/PDF. I guess some folks haven't heard of that new fangled stuff. I verified the authenticity of the FAX from the headers.

If ya want to knock it out, fire at will. I don't have a dog in this hunt. I just kept up with the bankruptcy because that is what I have done for a living for the last eight years. Buy assets from the courts and resell'em. Well, for that reason and concern for the 150,000 or so people that have purchased Century stoves within the last three or four years with a five year warranty.

 

[webbie]

Hey, I assumed it was real....certainly looked that way to me - and also know you probably would not joke about something like this....

I guess all the pieces are coming together.......heck, can you imagine if Dodge would have cut off the warranties on all their cars and trucks during the recent sale of that company.....and, then have the nerve to ask customers to continue to buy their cars?

I honestly - really - truly - don't get it. There is no logical reason....not even greed, because it will cause a tremendous loss of sales and good will.

Why wouldn't they just implement a couple policies such as:
1. Having their big dealers contribute 1% of sales (or reduce co-op ad co-pay) to help cover those warranties a little better.
2. Make it clear that they were tightening up.....still covering stuff, but just sticking closer to the letter of the warranty....
or
3. Come out with a slightly revised warranty which will cost them less, and continue full coverage with the reduced one....

Anything would seem better than actually showing the public and dealers that they have the right to now (and next year, and after that) dump all warranties just by selling or transferring the company entity.

Well, I guess that is why I am not in the corporate suite.

 

[fossil]

..Well, I guess that is why I am not in the corporate suite.

I can think of any number of corporate suites that would be better off if you were. Rick

 

[humpin iron]

Told ya I had an inside line..................................

 

[BrotherBart]

Actually they can't do that stuff. They are kinda stretching to go back to January and they know that I am very sure. One step too far and they set a precedent and ALL of the old liabilities that they are protected from by the court coming crashing in on their heads. Everything from the electric bills to the employee benefits. A Federal judge approved the terms of that sale and you do not screw around with a Federal judge.

Since they also got the accounts receivable it is a good bet that they can at least justify the back to January stuff because they haven't been paid yet for some or a lot of it and sorting that out would be very costly. I don't know what kind of floor planning or financing is done in that business. Nobody will ever know the details. And really shouldn't care. Policy is set. Game, set and match.

Heck, twice I have had the courts sell me stuff that didn't even belong to the debtors. This stuff sometimes takes years to sort out.

 

[tkirk22]

Wow. Now I'm really confused. Clever hoax or legit? I'm still voting for the former.

If a corporation sent that out it would be a perfect storm of stupid. To paraphrase the letter: Hey look at us...bla...bla...bla...We really value our customers and dealers and to prove it we are going to honor EVERY warranty on EVERY VC product that we sell if it was bought in 2008 or later. Aren't we GREAT!

 

[stoveguy2esw]

there are 2 schools of thought here, the Century brand who sold in mass merchant market such as we do, and the VC/Dutchwest brands which are for the most part dealer based product especially the VC stuff.

the century types are essentially "sol" as near as i can tell. it doesnt exist any more. now VC is a bit different, im seeing this as a similar situation to what Harman just evolved through (though it is different its still similar) the brand name still exists just under different management (same as Harman) now , the bunch running it may be different or may be the same folks (as far as this branch of the new company is concerned. so the good news is that parts availability for VC is still there. unlike Century which is toast. the warranty for VC products is still based through the dealer network, unlike century who were factory based like us. that said the issue is more clear in my mind with century than VC. there is no warranting company for century , but VC through monessen still exists and though they do not have any legal expectation to honor warranties offered by the former company , i expect they will likely fulfill most of them (within reason hey a 30 year old unit with a limited lifetime warranty is different from a stove bought last year) and once the new company' infrastructure absorbs VC into its framework i think its gonna be back to buisness as usual, the big issue isnt with the customers as the parts will be there , its gonna be the issue of compensating the dealer for his efforts in a warranty reasonable situation. he sold the stove and was to be the warranty executer later to be compensated by the manufacturer. he is the one who is kinda left hanging on this more than the end user IMHO. that said , a thread like this is not somthing he will likely want to see, reason is simple, it puts doubt in his ability to provide waranty service for his product (even though the new company if they sell a product with the same warranty to a dealer has to honor it) it still can poison his sales for units which may very well have a valid warranty held under the new company.

personally , i'd like to see this thread go away , or at least have a less alarming title. bear in mind i also do not have a dog in this fight, but i want to see the VC product back out there with its image intact. its been a great product line for longer than ive built woodstoves and its an american product. even more importantly in the time we are living in , the hearth industry needs VC, it fills a niche that is important in the industry. lets take a deep breath , and see what happens, so far after a few bumps in the road Harman seems to be rebounding , i see no reason why VC cannot do the same, given the chance to do so.

just my 2 cents

 

[BrotherBart]

OK I am bailing out of this thing, but one more thought.

Yes, the prior purchasers of the brands are hosed. And that sucks bigtime. But that was going to happen anyway if nobody bought the VC assets and breathed new life into the operation. Had it not happened, the lights would have gone out in VT. And the prior purchasers would have been hosed just the same anyway and with no access to parts. The upside is that the VC brnad and assets were purchased by an American company and those plants will continue cranking out quality stoves AND PARTS made by American workers. In America.

The villain here isn't the new owners. The villain was the prior owners.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

The villain here isn't the new owners. The villain was the prior owners.

BB you hit the nail on the head bro.