Isle Royale Smoking... a lot

[northwinds]

Well, here's what I have. A pipe damper set at a low -.06 draft, with the air controls 100 % closed. Now in reading the two descriptions, and not looking at the videos, I would expect to see your fire looking larger than mine but that is not the case. To me, my fire looks maybe 10 times bigger than yours. Does anybody have any ideas as to why?
Thank you.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/15998825207/

It's so tough, js, without being there. That's why I suggested having a different Quad dealer inspect your system and try to start a fire/maintain a fire at lower temperatures. And I'm not talking about merely the ability to start a fire in your firebox. I mean to do it the way the manual describes, using full primary air and then bringing it down in increments, which is the way the stove is designed to be used.

From that limited video, I can see that your wood splits are much smaller than mine. Small splits have greater surface area, and result in faster, hotter fires. The other obvious thing is that your draft is much higher. That's a function of your chimney, which is problematic. You needed a lot of chimney to get close to your roofline, yet that much length is giving you a problem with an easy-breathing stove.

The manometer is intended to test whether you have proper draft. You are using your manometer to operate your stove. Obviously, you're doing it in an effort to control your very strong draft, but you shouldn't use those numbers as evidence that the fire should be smaller. With the damper, you're getting to -0.6. The manual says that low burn should be -0.4 with (low primary, no damper) and -1.0 at high (primary open, presumably). Page 7.

"To be sure that your appliance burns properly, the chimney
draft ( static pressure) should be approximately - .0 4 inch water
column ( W .C .) during a low burn and - .1 0 inch W .C . during a
high burn, measured 6 inches ( 1 5 2 mm) above the top of the
appliance after one hour of operation at each burn setting."


There are very specific instructions for when to take that reading.

Those are my ideas. If you're not willing to bring in a professional to help you in this situation, and you can't figure this out yourself, you should probably sell the stove. It has significant value, if it isn't warped by the high temps. I feel bad for you because the dealer that sold you the chimney should be helping with a remedy so that this excellent stove can be operated as designed. The manual states:

"Your local dealer is the expert in your geographic
area and can usually make suggestions or discover solutions
that will easily correct your flue problem
area and can usually make suggestions or discover solutions
that will easily correct your flue problem"

These are expensive stoves, and part of what you pay for is dealer support. Due to the way your credit card dispute turned out, I can understand your reluctance to go back to the same dealer for help. Having said that, the credit card dispute ended, and they got paid. One way or another, I think you're going to need help not available on an internet forum. That means someone else at your house operating your stove and giving you advice on how to
proceed.

 

[js156]

Northwinds thank you for your reply.
I will try to get a dealer here to go over my stove; hopefully I will find someone willing to travel. Naturally, I wish Quad had a better way to approve dealers. They are good at sales but once the check clears fairwell. Sadly, my high premium hasn't prevented that...They should address that as a priority.
Anyway, I'm not sure that I agree that the large fire I am showing is a result of my draft. At this time, I do not think it is. My fire is many times the size of yours and my draft is near the bottom of the allowed draft range. I imagine yours is too. But, if you haven't checked it, it may be even higher.
The only reason that I try (key word "try") to use the damper to control my fire is because I have my primary and start up air as closed as I can get them but the fire is still going strong-different than yours. With the air controls exhausted, I look to anything else I can close "more" and that object is my damper - I can lower it to near zero if I want to. Now I am allowed to have my draft in the range of -.04 to -.10, as you said, so I don't understand how -.06 is a part of my problem? I can put in larger logs but I will still have a very similar fire.
I actually just looked at my fire and it is similar to the video posted and I have my draft at -.03, my air controls are completely closed with larger logs. Again, I crank that down because I have exhausted all else.
But with everything closed and my draft at -.03 I would expect to see something similar to your video. I don't. I just don't have that kind of air control I guess and I don't know why. I have always thought that I should but I don't.
Again, thank you very much for your reply.

 

[js156]

Again, thank you for your many attempts to help me with my stove.
I don't think I every posted how I got the temps down from the 800+ range so here it is.
My friend with the Jotul came by knowing the high temps that I was getting and we opened up the cover inside the front of the stove that covers the primary slide control and noticed that is was cocked. I believe it was the front that was touching and the back that was up. It was raised by maybe not less than 1/8". In loosening the screws that hold the knob in place, under the shelf, we were able to drop that down thus lowering the temps that made my fire, and wall dangerously hot. This is how I got the stove down to the 725/750 I now get.
Anyway, the slide now works. I also put a short screw in the hole that is in the sliding block because I am doing anything and everything to slow the burn.
My friend, Dave, even though we had made that correction, believes that there is still something wrong with either my stove or the design as a whole. Naturally, he never saw Northwinds video of his low fire as it wasn't yet posted.
I wish this was operator error but I'm not inclined to think so at this time. I just can't cut the air enough. My draft is at -.05 and I just can't slow the fire down. Dave had thought I had a leak but I'm not sure about that either because when I close the damper to -.04, or even -.03, I don't get smoke inside my house and my carbon monoxide detector doesn't go off. (I want to say, I was sure to fire caulk where the stove top adapter connects to the stove pipe otherwise the damper may push the exhaust out there.) I also look for light at night when the fire is burning but I don't see any.
I'm stumped. I truly believe I should be able to keep a fire under 750 - I realize that sometimes it may happen but I am on top of this thing, to the best of my ability, and it happens every time I have more than a couple logs in burning. (and I mean every)
My ash pan gasket has been replaced too. Dave told me to, under the circumstances, fill that thing with sand.
I keep going back to my primary air control. I say that it works but by that I mean it goes back and forth and covers the opening. But to me, the air control goes from way too much air to, too much air.
When I have my primary in the closed position the flames in my fire, assuming the fire is toward the front, blow from side to side.
If I open the primary up it blows the flames out, there, and the orange of the wood glows bright. Then, when I close the primary it burns with a flame. To me, that is too much and therefore it wouldn't be designed that way. But, you never know.
I would love to slow that down but I don't know how. Does anyone have any idea what precedes the primary? Believe me I will look there.
I have already tried to find a blown up parts list online but I haven't been able to find it.
Thank you all!

 

[Ash]

If I open the primary up it blows the flames out, there, and the orange of the wood glows bright.

When you open the primary the flames go out?

 

[rideau]

yes, my reaction too. sounds like the primary was closed, not opened.

 

[Ash]

yes, my reaction too. sounds like the primary was closed, not opened.

Same thing I was thinking

 

[js156]

Absolutely. The air blows so hard it will not light the wood but instead blow it out, get it glowing orange, and when I close it, to the right, it will then burn again. The flame will be larger than it was as the air increased the size of the area glowing. So, from a whirlwind to a fairly strong breeze; in other words.
Naturally, if the fire is strong and in the back of the stove this will not happen. Then, it will help to increase the flame but if the fire is up front and not fully developed, absolutely.

 

[js156]

Seeing is believing!
I did try larger logs this evening and it seems to have slowed the fire, this is the later stages of it here.
What I am wanting to show though is how the fire goes out (to a degree) when I open the primary, to the left, maybe 5 seconds into it and then close it again, to the right, maybe 8 seconds into it. The draft is at -.05.
I was just throwing in the towel when I walked by and saw the flames blowing to the left and thought what the hell I'll put it on hearth com.
Thank you guys, a very lot. I'm burnt out and I must be doing the same to you.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/16014854080/

 

[Jags]

How many logs does it take you to "fill" the firebox? (I am asking for a very specific reason)

 

[rideau]

That's not going out...in my opinion. Of course, you only left it there for an instant. What happens if you leave it there for longer? I don't have your stove, so am not familiar with it's controls, but it sure looks like in the first instance you closed the air, then reopened it in the second. It is fine to let it establish at the lower burn rate, the one you had it in for just an instant, whether that is opened or closed on your stove. You want to slow this thing down.

on my stove, in a setting with a similar draft issue, it is not possible to blow the fire out by adding air. On the contrary, I get a roaring fire that, left that way, would certainly get out of control and overfire. I'd love to see you try burning with the air setting in the position you had it in momentarily. If that puts the fire out (really out, without glowing coals, but rather all black in the box), then I would next move the air control just about a quarter of an inch in the other direction; still no flame or glowing, another quarter inch. Wait a bit after each of these steps...a minute or two at least. If no result at that point, try opening the flue damper just a bit. Still no fire, open it a bit more. Try things such as detailed, and similar permutations, giving the stove at least a minute or two to start to react to each of your actions. I'd change just one thing at a time.

I would not expect you to ever have to burn with the air wide open, except for a minute or so at loading, assuming loading into a hot firebox, given your draft.

Glad to see that you are getting a result with the use of larger wood, good to see as it is a normal reaction, what you would expect in a properly working stove. How much did it help? What temps did you have, and how long did your burn last?

 

[js156]

rideau and Jags,
The position I had it in momentarily was the open position. The position where the flame is blowing is the closed position. In other words, I started the video with the stoves primary in the closed position, I opened it briefly, to show that the flames in front do in fact blow out with the primary open, and then at the end of the video the primary is again closed with the flames still blowing to the sides. That is why had expressed an interest in slowing that down. Less air, smaller flame, lower temps, longer burn time. It would be awesome. Maybe I'll get it!
I need to do it some more time to answer your questions with the wood! Thx!

 

[rideau]

I couldn't find a QuadraFire Isle Royale manual, so looked at one for a different QuadraFire. In it they caution that one of the possible results of an overfire is warping of the air tube. Have you checked that? Something is wrong with the air supply, if opening the air snuffs out a fire. Opening the air should definitely make for a higher burn rate. If that is not happening, I believe you have a fundamental problem with the air supply to the stove. Another thing they caution about is damage to the ceramic blanket/baffle board. Damage to either of those could also influence burns. Did your dealer check those things when he came out (I think I remember he came out once?).

 

[js156]

rideau,
Your memory is correct! He did come out once. He was here and replaced the ash pan gasket and did not look at the air tube as far as I know. If the stove has to be taken apart to reveal that he didn't check it out because the only thing that he opened up was the primary air control sliding mechanism (fortunately my friend Dave reviewed his work) and the ash pan. If you remember he wouldn't tighten the glass and he didn't believe the doors should pass the dollar bill test either. All this, plus a short chimney, from a Quad "Platinum Dealer" which I did look for before I bought. But I am digressing, and need to stay focused on the air control.
Opening the air (primary) will make it burn at a higher rate; it gives it so much air that in the front it blows it out (that is what happened in the video). Everywhere else it will eventually take off and give me, basically, an unsafe fire. It's my opinion, at least right now, that, on low, or closed, I still get too much air. It does blow the flame side ways.

I can't find air control mentioned where it shows a picture of my stove "exploded" on page 32, so I don't know what it looks like yet.
I can find "Door/Air Control, Upgrade" mentioned at the bottom of Page 35 but there still isn't a picture of it or where it would go.
As far as the baffle at the top of the stove I can't see any physical damage from my stove over firing but it certainly glowed once or twice.
Thank you for mentioning the air tube, its definitely, definitely worth looking into. thank you. I hope I didn't forget something...I'm in a rush.

 

[js156]

rideau,
I think the air tubes are simply the tubes on the baffle. Unfortunatly, this won't stop my overfiring. I was hoping it was a supply tube that could be repaired...The board is mysteriously quiet in light of the video I posted last night.
Way too little control of the fire. If there was a fix, the members of this board probably would have said so. It's likely a poor design. Welcome to the Quadra-fire Family my manual reads. Funny, I'm not feeling it.

 

[rideau]

As I said, I couldn't find a manual for the Isle Royale, but looked at one for a similar but smaller stove by QuadraFire. I'm pretty sure they referred to an air supply tube as a possible victim of overfire, as well as the baffle and ceramic blanket as well as other things to check.The manual I saw was pretty detailed about how to run the stove and possible overfire problems. ( The emphasis on the issue and the early statement that an overfire voids the warranty sends me a flag that this may well be an issue with the stoves.) Is your manual as detailed?

I'm sure you have read your manual many times. Does your stove have an automatic control for starting the stove? If so, do you use it? The manual I read says it should be used with every start. Do you have a blower/fan?

What temps are you able to keep the stove at using larger splits? re they helping much?

I wonder if there is any seasoned burner, even if he/she does not have an Isle Royale, who is a member of the forum and in Bucks County and would be willing to go over to your place and try to help you. Maybe in person they will spot an issue or see a solution. You might post a new thread entitled something like :Burners in or near Bucks County, I would appreciate some help with my stove.....and see what response you get. With the Isle Royale in the title of your thread there may be many people who live near you but never look at he thread because it does not pertain to them/covers a different stove than they own.

 

[Jags]

The board is mysteriously quiet in light of the video I posted last night.
Way too little control of the fire. If there was a fix, the members of this board probably would have said so

The board has asked questions that have gone unanswered.

 

[northwinds]

The manual is here:

http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/250_5763.pdf

I've already given the OP the best advice I can. He should have the system checked out by a qualified Quad dealer technician in his area. The chimney is 30 feet tall (stove designed for 12-14 feet); air controls have been taken apart and put back together by the OP and a a friend; and it's obvious to me from that video that the draft (which sucked the flame out for an instant) is like a Hoover vac on steroids when the primary air is opened up. There's no way that I would run this stove with the primary air control closed all the time and a pipe damper/manometer as my only air control.

The original installation is not the OP's fault, if he was given no warning about the possible draft problems with his configuration, but I think as a new stove owner, he's beyond where self help makes sense. It's been a year since the original installation, and he hasn't been able to operate the stove as designed ever.

.

 

[js156]

Jags, The number of logs varies. Like I said, I use the same wood as my friend Dave uses with his Jotul. What's up? Thx.

 

[js156]

Notrthwinds I love your posts....I have listened and I have called another dealer. They were suppose to call me back yesterday and didn''t. I will try them again.
I don't know why Quad would make a stove capable of heating 3000 sf and think that that size house would have a 12 to 14 foot chimney. It won't it will almost always be installed in a 2 story house.
But if that is what it is made for then maybe I will have to control it with a pipe damper. This seems to be what Kobeman does. But you on the other hand don't have a damper and do get low burns so...
My Platinum Dealer said nothing about anything that I have experienced. Downdrafts, overfiring all this nonsense that has taken up sooo much f my time when my wife and I tapped into our savings to treat ourselves to something special. Nope, it went nothing like that. I walked into the store told them what I saw online and they sold it to me. Really. At check out they asked me about how high my house was (seriously) guesses at how many lengths of exterior pipes I needed and then put it on my mastercard. (Seriously). That is why the chimney was short and my house filled with smoke. Then when I told them it was downdrafting they just don't get back to me. And you know the story with the service tech that doesn't believe everything that the manual has to say and the dollar bill test ect ect. From the time I walked into the store bought the stove and drove away with a delivery date was at most 40 minutes.
And they are still a Quad Platinum Dealer waiting for the next customer. Cha-ching.
Again, thank you for your valuable posts.

 

[Jags]

Keep in mind that each and every install will have some unique properties so a comparison from one to the other may not be apples to apples.
Example: Your buddy and his Jotul on a typical 15-16 ft (or even 20ft) of pipe burning logs the size of a paper towel tube may be able to control it. Use the same fuel in your unit (an easy breathing, extended flue (30ft)) and you may not be able to control it for squat.
I wished is was logical for me to personally see your setup and burn habits. It sounds like we may have a perfect storm of some type that needs one ingredient to be diffused.
For the record...I use fuel in the size range that 6 or possibly 8 splits FILLS the stove. If you are getting 10-12+ splits in the stove you are using too small of fuel for such a draft inducing install.
Assuming that the stove is in correct operating condition (all controls and seals doing what they are supposed to do) I am gonna go back to the FUEL, OXYGEN, IGNITION - the three things that results in fire.

Ignition - not much to change

Oxygen - you have already installed a flue damper to restrict output flow (and thus, input). You have, along with a neighbor, disassembled and reassembled the primary air controls, I can only have faith the this was/is properly reinstalled. The only thing you have not tried is to cover a part of the primary air intake. There are other members that have done that in the past with success, but it is not a mfg. recommended alteration. Also - I don't remember if this was asked/answered, but - are you positive that you start up air control is in the proper position (pulled out) and making a proper seal to the inlet tubes to the stove?

Fuel - it appears that there is no moisture issue - BUT it can go the opposite direction as well. Fuel can be too dry (albeit a rare instance for typical cord word). Size matters. Smaller splits contain far more surface area - area that off gasses - than large splits. With a stove that is drafting like a hoover I would be inclined to use splits that would be considered "large" by most standards. I am talking 6" plus across the ends.

And finally - operation. I cannot pinpoint any operational mistakes. With all controls in the fully closed position you should be able to bring the stove below 800F stove top. By the way - where are you taking the readings from? I use the top left corner of the griddle. The center of the griddle will run considerably hotter.

ETA - I think you have got the third longest post I have ever written - only to be bested by my electric splitter review and my small log splitter build thread.

 

[Jags]

But if that is what it is made for then maybe I will have to control it with a pipe damper.

Wait - whut? I thought you already had a pipe damper. Is this not correct??

 

[Toploader]

What are your stack temps? I agree with Northwinds ,I watched the clip, looks like the start up air isn't closing or the front air slide isn't shutting, that flame is what mine looks like with air open . If it is open then this would make since-High flue temps causing your wall to get hot due to the short clearance. I think I'd find a different dealer, or if going it alone I'd pull the cover off the start up air assy on the back and make sure everything is status quo

Hey js156 Ive been following your plight, I'm sure this is a really frustrating situation for you, I thought about buying an Isle Royale last year but decided against it because of their reputation for running on the hot side. Kobeman pointed out the possibility of a problem with the start up air, did you look into that? If you can't find a defect in the stove maybe it's time to end your frustration, pass it off to someone with a shorter stack, and pick up an Oslo for yourself, a more simple stove known to not be an easy breather.

 

[rideau]

Northwinds, Thanks for the location on the manual.

You had an early overfire. The manual lists as a possible casualty, to be checked before burning again, the air supply tube. The manual says the tubes provide the start up air supply. Jags says to be sure there is a proper seal from the start up air control to the inlet tubes. I really think you need to check this.

And, like Jags, I am fairly certain you said you HAD a pipe damper??? Are you talking about using an already installed pipe damper for control? With your draft, I think a pipe damper needs to be installed and closed at all times, except possibly on start up.

But, more fundamentally, I don't understand why you bought this stove with your tall chimney. Did you research the stove? The manual says that the stove was designed for use with a 12 to 14 foot chimney measured from the floor to the top of the chimney. That is an incredibly short flue...about 9 1/2 to 11 feet above the stove top. It further cautions that the more you deviate from that the greater the chance that you will have performance issues. That is right at the beginning of the manual. It seems to me that this is not an appropriate stove for a 30 foot chimney and you are likely fighting a loosing battle. Most EPA stoves have the opposite problem: under 15 feet from the stovetop (so 17 1/2 to 18 feet from the floor) may not have enough draft. I suspect you could not have picked a much worse stove for your application.

I'd cut my losses, sell the stove, and do a lot of research. Get a stove that is designed for your setting, or at least that is easily capable of handling it. The heat output specified by the manual is not excessive. There are plenty of good medium size cat and non-cat stoves that put out that much heat. Get yourself a good, reliable, easy to operate stove
where you know you can get good dealer or company service in the event you need it, or at least one that on this site has a reputation for being easy to run and control. Once you have selected, ASK here for input and concerns before purchasing. Actually, good idea to list your requirements and issues, and ask for preliminary input before doing your research.

 

[jack_90125]

I have a 24 ft chimney and so far no issues at all.but then I am in a different area and conditions. it performs well and throws lots of heat and keeps 2200 plus sq feet warm.

 

[northwinds]

My recollection of the folks who have had overdraft issues with this stove is that all approached the 30 foot mark. There was one guy here who was renting his place with 30 foot of chimney/Isle Royale, and the high temps were really causing him issues. The damper helped, but he still had high temps.