Jotul 550 insert draw/cold air intake problem

[PDX PYRO]

Hello.

I have a few questions about my Jotul 550. Comparing to my buddies Jotul 350.

It seems my air intake and or draft is not up to par to his.

My setup:
Jotul 550 professionally installed.
Outside brick and Mortar chimney with terra-cotta liner.
17 ft stainless steel liner inside existing chimney.
15-17% moisture in my dry wood.

My buddies fire box has an outside cold air intake to the back of his existing firebox where his insert was installed. Mine does not. I was told by 2 installers the air intake on these Jotuls is in the front of the stove so an outside air intake line to the back side of the stove won't do any good because it draws from the front.

Anyone know if there is an non adjustable secondary air intake on the sides or back of these jotuls? If there is, the outside air to the back of he fire box could conceivably help.

My buddies jotul 350 insert draws in air so swiftly it actually fans his fire. When I load in wood, even after I have lots of red coals and a clean flame, I get smoke billowing in to the house if I open the door more then 3 inches. Conversely, my buddies stove can have the door open all the way and the smoke drafts up the chimney.

Now my house is an older 1970 house and my buddies is a 2010 custom build.

Do these jotuls have a secondary air intake in the sides or rear of the stove that can benefit from an outside cold air intake?

What's the deal with smoke exiting my stove and into my house every time I put on a few more splits of wood? If I hadn't just visited my buddy for New Years and added wood to his fire I'd have thought it was normal.

Thanks.
Mike

 

[jotulguy]

Sounds like a draft issue to me. What temp are you running your insert at?

 

[PDX PYRO]

It's at 300 now. 5 hours of burning with max air flow. Having a problems getting it really going. Comparing it to my buddies, my air flow; be it draw or some kind of air intake issue, is nowhere near his. I can hear like a jet engine when his takes off.

 

[jotulguy]

How did you take your measurement on the wood? from the outside or did you split it and take it from the inside? you could just need smaller splits to start and get that fire up over 400 before you consider shutting down the air.

 

[PDX PYRO]

Jotul guy,

How do I increase chimney draft?

 

[PDX PYRO]

I read a lot on these forums prior to purchasing the insert. I split a cut of my wood and measured the moisture with an electronic meter from the inside of a freshly cut open split.

 

[chimneylinerjames]

How do I increase chimney draft?

Install insulation around the liner. Does your buddy have an insulated liner? What is his chimney setup? run thru the middle of the house? There are other ways also, but this is one thing you did not mention.

 

[PDX PYRO]

Install insulation around the liner. Does your buddy have an insulated liner? What is his chimney setup? run thru the middle of the house? There are other ways also, but this is one thing you did not mention.

My buddy's chimney is unlined and an outside chimney as is mine. I suspect because he has 6 more feet on his chimney it's pulling harder. When he slides down his damper all the way, the fire barely stifles the flame down on his fire.

 

[remkel]

At 17 feet you are just over the minimum 15 feet specified in the owner's manual. If there is a 90 or 45 anywhere in that run then you have effectively reduced the draw on your chimney. I would suspect that adding some additional run to that flue would help with your draw, but I am by no means an expert on this but it would make sense to me.

 

[cnice_37]

Secondary air enters from the backside and is not adjustable. Someone on here is making it adjustable, member EL923 or something like that.

Are you burning in complete cycles? If the wood is down to coals, you shouldn't have much smoke left. If I reload too soon (like throwing a few more logs on before bed) I'll crack the door slightly to let the draft start pulling stronger, and then open all the way to load. Even then, I can get a little smoke spilling out. Maybe a video of your problem would help determine if there really is an issue.

I run a Rockland as well.

 

[EJL923]

As remkel said, draft is your issue. My 550 has a 23' chimney, interior, uninsulated. I only wish draft was my issue. Yes, i made the adjustable secondary (on the back side). You need to find a way to get that exterior chimney up to temp. If cracking the door wont help, then you may need to insulate the liner. Almost forgot, if cracking the door doesn't help, try cracking a window or door nearest your stove. Your house may be too tight, though i don't think this is too common.

 

[Chris3504]

Hey everyone. First time poster here. Recently got a Rockland C550 and had a similar question about draft. Where does the primary air get pulled from? Inside the home? I have an ash cleanout that leads to the exterior of the chimney that I’ve thought of cracking open to give the back of insert room to breathe.

How is the primary air being controlled by the slider on the top right and how can I confirm that I’m getting full air. I’m having a hard time starting the draft pre fire.

I get my propane torch and aim it up toward secondary flame tubes for about a minute then I’ll light a piece of newspaper and hold it up top at about the same time I’ll give ignition to my main fire which will then fill the room with smoke before things turn around and start the draft. Anyone ever try an electric heater in the firebox for 30min before a fire? Am I overthinking this small early on draft issue? Once things are burning the fire cycles from flame to glowing logs/coals back to flame. I can get 90 min out of one normal size split piece of wood with air full open.. house tens is 72, outside was 38, blower at full speed and exit air temp was 126 back into the room.

That’s my background. Lol. Thanks for all the info here. Excited to add this to my forced hot air system to supplement the needs of a large home.

 

[begreen]

That does sound like weak draft. This can be due to a few different factors like chimney, the insert location, house leakage and low pressure in the room caused by exhaust devices running like a kitchen fan or dryer. The insert draws in room air for combustion.

Tell us more about the installation.

1. Is this an interior or exterior chimney?
2. Does the insert have a fully insulated, 6" ss liner to the top?
3. What floor is the insert on and how many floors total?
4. If you open a nearby window or door a little bit, does that help?

Also, how dry and fully seasoned is the wood that is being burned?

 

[Chris3504]

Thanks for the reply!

Here’s what I have, exterior chimney with a new 6” ss liner. I asked for insulated and during installation they claimed that the interior of chimney narrowed and insulation would not fit so I signed off on them running uninsulated and doing their best to plug the top and bottom chimney so I don’t have free airflow around liner.

Insert is on first floor on a slab of a 2 story home (5 bed 3 bath). Heats the whole place when temps are in the 30s. Older home from the 70s.

Wood is about 2 years on my stack so should be seasoned but it’s been slipping my mind to get a meter read on it.

I just read another post that suggests popping the top firebrick and getting a draft going then replacing before lighting fire. I’ll try that.

I’m going to try lighting some smoking incense around insert bc I’m curious where the air is drawn from.

Any insight from experience on the secondary tubes? I’ve yet to see them light up.... should they always be lit in a mature fire? I have a IR heat camera with me that I’ll shoot tonight if the wife was able to maintain the stove for the day. Thanks again!

 

[begreen]

Too bad about the liner insulation, it would help the flue to warm up quicker and keep the flue gases hotter. It's been a wet year back east so for some folks the wood has not dried as well hoped for. With a good load of dry wood, say 6 splits burning robustly, there should be vigorous secondary burn happening once the air control has been turned down more than about 50%.

Are there any windows opened upstairs or leaky windows up there? Is there an unsealed attic door, stairs or ceiling vent to the attic upstairs?

 

[Chris3504]

Yes it was a wet summer and the wood spent August-October uncovered while I moved to a new house. So hopefully drying out now. I haven’t dropped the air control very much... still playing around near full open but I’ll continue to drop once I get a baseline temp on the outlet. As far as draft, attic door isnt sealed very well so if your suggesting the house is bottled up I do t think that’s the case. When I start the fire I’ve been cracking the French door nearby to allow the outside air in. I’ll try some smaller splits to get a good coal bed going. Fire burns hot once going though. Lastnight I last loaded at 1030pm and the wife threw 2 logs on at 230am, when I came down at 5 I had plenty of coals so I threw some real fine pine and some logs back on and it fired right up (blower was still running in auto). Thanks for the help.

 

[EJL923]

I would just chalk it up to exterior chimney. Maybe you have a tight house, cracking a door or window could help on startup. I have an interior chimney not insulated, in 10 years I maybe had two instances with weak draft due to dense air outside. Secondary air comes from the rear and is not adjustable. (Except I installed a rear slider control for this) primary comes from above the door. Without the fans on, play with the front slider and listen for air to change right above the door

 

[EJL923]

By the way, if you want to predraft it, point a heat gun above the baffles near the front of the stove, will work better than pointing at secondaries

 

[begreen]

Yes it was a wet summer and the wood spent August-October uncovered while I moved to a new house. So hopefully drying out now. I haven’t dropped the air control very much... still playing around near full open but I’ll continue to drop once I get a baseline temp on the outlet. As far as draft, attic door isnt sealed very well so if your suggesting the house is bottled up I do t think that’s the case. When I start the fire I’ve been cracking the French door nearby to allow the outside air in. I’ll try some smaller splits to get a good coal bed going. Fire burns hot once going though. Lastnight I last loaded at 1030pm and the wife threw 2 logs on at 230am, when I came down at 5 I had plenty of coals so I threw some real fine pine and some logs back on and it fired right up (blower was still running in auto). Thanks for the help.

This sounds like a combination of issues. For sure seal and close any upstairs leaks. They can create negative pressure on the floor below. And the wood sounds like it may be damp. Try adding some 2x4 cut offs to the fire to see if that helps.
https://woodheat.org/all-about-chimneys.html

 

[Chris3504]

One more question for you all. When I had just the open firebox before insert I found that leaving the ash for a dozen fires would help the new embers stay lit when they fall from the burn grate.... how often do you all fully clean your stoves out?

 

[bholler]

Yes it was a wet summer and the wood spent August-October uncovered while I moved to a new house. So hopefully drying out now. I haven’t dropped the air control very much... still playing around near full open but I’ll continue to drop once I get a baseline temp on the outlet. As far as draft, attic door isnt sealed very well so if your suggesting the house is bottled up I do t think that’s the case. When I start the fire I’ve been cracking the French door nearby to allow the outside air in. I’ll try some smaller splits to get a good coal bed going. Fire burns hot once going though. Lastnight I last loaded at 1030pm and the wife threw 2 logs on at 230am, when I came down at 5 I had plenty of coals so I threw some real fine pine and some logs back on and it fired right up (blower was still running in auto). Thanks for the help.

The attic door not being sealed well could easily be your problem.

 

[EJL923]

One more question for you all. When I had just the open firebox before insert I found that leaving the ash for a dozen fires would help the new embers stay lit when they fall from the burn grate.... how often do you all fully clean your stoves out?

Yes you’re right, most leave some ash when cleaning the stove. With the 550 I usually clean out when it’s becoming a problem to manage, or when I need some hot fires. When going 24/7 in the dead of winter that could be once a week. You’ll get your own feel for it

 

[bholler]

One more question for you all. When I had just the open firebox before insert I found that leaving the ash for a dozen fires would help the new embers stay lit when they fall from the burn grate.... how often do you all fully clean your stoves out?

I never fully clean my stove out.

 

[mjp]

I also have a relatively new Jotul C550 Rockland, professionally installed within the past year. Exterior brick/masonry chimney with non-insulated stainless steel liner that goes up 3 storeys. Only a few fires this spring but more this fall and have definitely experienced smoke coming out the front on occasion!! In the worst episode, it actually came out the slit where the air intake adjustment lever is.

After some experimenting, I ultimately think that it's because the firebox is so big in the 550 that it takes some time for it to heat up which affects the draft (I think). Supported by the fact that the smoking generally doesn't happen if the stove is still warm from a previous fire, and tends to happen more frequently with cold starts. I've had the most success (least smoke) when I've been patient and started fires with kindling and then small splits, rather than trying to move up to big pieces too quickly. The top-down method of laying the fire also helps I think since it puts the kindling closer to the top of the firebox and maybe helps the right places heat up faster. Agree that opening the door a crack can also help when getting the fire going.

As for the secondary burn tubes, it takes a while for them to get going and the fire has to be pretty big/hot based on what I've seen so far. It's a thing beauty once they get going though.

Hope this helps,

 

[EJL923]

For those with draft issues on cold starts I could see a starter like supercedars would help. They get hot quick and don’t produce a lot of smoke