Just got screwed - $987 bill for insulating my liner

[oconnor]

Just got a bill faxed to me from my installer 3 1/2 months after the fact billing me 987.62 for upsizing my liner from a 5 to 6 inch and labour to intall the liner. To give them credit, they have, on paper at least, not charged me full price, but only for the increased charges to do the work - I wasn't billed for installing the liner, or for removing and reinstalling the stove.

What burns me is they have tried to pass off 25' of Superwool 607 8 lb 1/2 inch blanket, clamps, wire mesh and aluminum tape as a $640 dollar product.

Burns me enough that the only reason they fixed the job in the first place is that they left the UL tag out where I read it and found out they broke code on the install, then I had to escalate the issue over a year to get them to show up and fix the job, now the bill me 3 1/2 months later for fixing a job they screwed up last October!


Any insight as to fair market value for that stuff?

 

[schwaggly]

don't pay them. let them take you to small claims. In the meantime gather as much info and build a case against them.

 

[BrotherBart]

USD or CDN?

 

[oconnor]

I just spoke to the installer, and here is how I put it to him:

I just received your bill, charging me full retail price for the liner installation, three and 1/2 months after the job was completed. I do note that you did not charge me for installing the liner twice, but that instead the bill reflects the retail cost increase between the two installations. Given that I:
1- had to educate you on the need to insulate my liner to bring it to code compliance;
2- that I became aware of that need thru finding the ULC tag in the garbage that you left behind;
3- given that I had my thoughts confirmed by WETT NS, your professional body; and
4- that you finally fixed the issue after a full heating season, and then only after my continued persistence;
I do not find the bill acceptable. I am willing to pay your costs of labor and materials, but will not do so at any markup. Given that you mention that you still don't stock the insulation blanket, it is my assertion that you still install many non-code compliant chimney liners, and that worries me greatly. Please reflect on this bill and your installation practices with you business partner, and get back to me.

I am pissed, but willing to be fair. What pisses me off the most is that he is still doing the same thing -installing uninsulated liners in old homes when code requires otherwise. Perhaps goping to court would be the best solution - some "heat" and "Light" on his installs.

 

[oconnor]

USD or CDN?

Cdn dollars. Roughly 900 USD.

 

[schwaggly]

willing to be fair? no way Jose'. I would raise holy hell and refuse to pay him a red cent. let him take you to court.
Thats the Massachusetts in me coming out, around here you need to have a lawyer on retainer if you plan on crossing the street.

 

[thinkxingu]

oconnor,
Sounds like you answered your own question:

1. "had to educate you on the need to insulate my liner to bring it to code compliance"
--If it was not up to code, you shouldn't have to pay him anything

And schwaggly, if you was a real MA native, you'd not only refuse to pay but countersue for creating a dangerous environment for you and your family. We could've been KILLED

S

 

[webbie]

How much did you expect to pay?

I know insulation and the wire mesh is pretty expensive.........and it sounds like you agreed to pay for the "over and above" part of the job.

Was the 5 to 6 inch part their fault?

 

[littlesmokey]

Just my simple thought: Call him and his employer and give them a heads up that after reflection, you are going to file a greivance with the professional certifiying body and the appropriate licensing authority for their intentional unsafe practices and their attempt to extort any additional money from you at all. Follow this up with a confirmation in writing. Then sit back, sip a cool one and enjoy your fire. They really blew the original install and by correcting it, they only complied with the law. Let the governing bodies do the leaning.

I would suspect the installer will call back with a revised offer, but under no circumstances should you pay them a nickel. Canadian or American.

ADDED After review: I think I would demand a full or partial refund because your insulation is not in or complete, correct? And they should pay up or finish the job. Their nickel, either way.

 

[theheatelement]

Was it 987 plus the cost of the initial cost of the 5" liner... I can see that as the cost of an insulated liner with install but not in addition to the 5" liner.

 

[oconnor]

How much did you expect to pay?

I know insulation and the wire mesh is pretty expensive.........and it sounds like you agreed to pay for the "over and above" part of the job.

Was the 5 to 6 inch part their fault?

The 5 to 6 inch piece was their fault. The $987 was the increase in cost to get it insulated - the initial install was already paid for, and this is above and beyond that first bill.

I was figuring that a good business wouldn't be charging me, and was willing to live with paying the cost of the liner kit - around $400 delivered to my door if I have my online shopping right.

 

[meathead]

I agree with others - don't pay them a cent and make sure they know if they pursue it any further you will be filing grievances and considering pressing charges etc.

 

[theheatelement]

I would guess a $100.00 upcost in going from 5-6" regardless of who's fault and then $350.00 for insulating it.. about half of the cost they invoiced you... That would sound about right but not close to $1,000!

 

[allhandsworking]

willing to be fair? no way Jose'. I would raise holy hell and refuse to pay him a red cent. let him take you to court.
Thats the Massachusetts in me coming out, around here you need to have a lawyer on retainer if you plan on crossing the street.

You probably are a lawyer and need the business! That is the problem with the world today everyone needs a lawyer! Just negotiate a deal with the guy who broke his butt doing the job and move on with your life! Channel the negative energy to do something good like taking your kids to the park or helping your neighbor rake the leaves!

As long as your not going to die from this install move on the man probably has an explanation.

 

[oconnor]

I would guess a $100.00 upcost in going from 5-6" regardless of who's fault and then $350.00 for insulating it.. about half of the cost they invoiced you... That would sound about right but not close to $1,000!

Thanks Magna - that is the details I'm looking for. Planning to wait for his revised quote. I have no expectation that it should cost me nothing, but it also shouldn't be his gain.

 

[meathead]

This installer installed a stove - failed to meet code AND used the wrong size liner - then dragged it out for an entire heating season without fixing the issue until you finally pressured him into it...pretty rediculous.

I run a business, and I know mistakes happen. Had he jumped right on the repair as soon as he was made aware of the issue, and come back right away and put the right size liner in with insulation that met code, then I'd expect a bill for the diff. in price of materials and maybe even a little labor to insulate.

BUT, you said he rode out your complaints for an entire heating season and resisted making things right until 3 months ago? Why the heck would you pay him anything at this point? It's one thing to give money to a good business who made a mistake and then put in the effort to make it right - but that doesn't sound like the case. Either you paid for oil heat last year or you risked running a setup that wasn't to code because this guy wasn't on his game. I'd tell him to eat the costs. A decent business owner would eat the $400 over such a rediculous mistake without you even thinking about asking them to do so.

 

[jawj]

Of different heating types, but when I had a locally recognized company install my HVAC system and gas hot water tank at same time, I discovered about 4 code violations--not including not pulling a license to do the job. Trying to get them back to correct was a pain. They kept telling me they had "business" customers to attend to...like I'm what, chopped liver?....and paid in full! After about 2 weeks of that cr*p, they finally came and removed EVERYTHING and gave me a full refund.

Persistence Pays--and so does educating yourself in the area you're having work done.

 

[Wet1]

As a side note, how did the stove perform with the 5" vs the newer insulated 6"?

 

[schwaggly]

willing to be fair? no way Jose'. I would raise holy hell and refuse to pay him a red cent. let him take you to court.
Thats the Massachusetts in me coming out, around here you need to have a lawyer on retainer if you plan on crossing the street.

You probably are a lawyer and need the business! That is the problem with the world today everyone needs a lawyer! Just negotiate a deal with the guy who broke his butt doing the job and move on with your life! Channel the negative energy to do something good like taking your kids to the park or helping your neighbor rake the leaves!

As long as your not going to die from this install move on the man probably has an explanation.

If I was an attorney I would be plenty busy here in Mass. with all those poor victims who get shot robbing other peoples houses.
I stand by what I said don't pay them a cent. They already got paid to do the job right they screwed up he shouldn't have to pay.
Quote "guy who broke his butt" it's called dumb tax they are dumb so they have to pay for their mistakes.

BTW: how bout them Yankees?

 

[allhandsworking]

Couldnt give a rats ass about the yankees im a Met fan! Loyal but unhappy! Hey I agree that the job should be done right and the worker should be compansated for his work if the job is done right! I just think that this law suit thing is getting so outraguos! People cant work things out, That is the problem with our sociaty man up and do the right thing. Talk to each other and get the job done!

 

[littlesmokey]

Hey Guys I didn't suggest he sue. Let the regulators regulate. He didn't do the job right. Did he do it intentionally or ignorantly? Should you pay for the improper work and then pay again to correct the work? No. Don't sue get the business to amend it's practices or stop doing business. Remember they may want to review all prior installs to see that they are code compliant. Could be costly to the business, but may save some homes and lives by correcting other problem installations,

 

[Danno77]

this seems too confusing to me.
If you got a brand new estimate to install a stove today (same stove & same installation) it should cost you $XXXX. This install cost you an initial fee ($IIII) and a Fixit fee ($987). the bottom line is this: If $XXXX is less than $IIII+$987, then you are getting screwed. You should only have to pay $XXXX to get a working and to-code stove. PERIOD. I don't care what labor and parts cost differences there are, there was a proper estimate to get it installed properly, you just weren't given the proper estimate.

also, if you tell me you'll prime and paint my house blue for $2500 and I come home and you've put three coats of red on without primer, then you better not tell me that you are gonna have to charge me to scrape the red off, then also charge me for the labor to scrape all the red paint off. Similarly, if you tell me you'll "paint my house" blue for $2500 then I come home and it's blue, but you didn't prime, then we have problems. Primer is proper and assumed. Now, because you didn't include primer in your initial estimate, then I understand if you want to charge me extra for the primer paint and the labor to apply primer paint. i do not think I need to pay you to scrape the blue paint off in order for you to apply your primer.

The bottom line is this. He is incompetent, he either didn't know what he was doing, or hoped you wouldn't know enough. he offered you a install, and hopefully it was itemized (parts & labor specified) You agreed to that install, shame on you for not being an educated consumer. Shame on him, too, for obvious reasons. He should be reported to whatever certification agencies he is associated with, the BBB, and anybody else who will listen. If there were labor costs and parts costs above and beyond what he initially quoted you then you should pay up, BUT you shouldn't pay a dime to pull the stove out, etc. Like I said before. if there is a quote to be had for a proper install then that's what you should be out right now. (He didn't warranty that initial job did he?)

 

[oconnor]

As a side note, how did the stove perform with the 5" vs the newer insulated 6"?

With the 5", it was quite picky, with a lot of smoke spillage on reloads. I definitely would not recommend it. This year is way better, but my wood is also drier. The 6" insulated liner is certainly a big part of the improvement, given it is 30% larger than the restrictive 5" unit.

Thanks for the input folks - for the record, I have no plans to sue anyone - I do however want these folks to stop installing uninsulated liners in 75 year old homes that are very common around here.

 

[Rudyjr]

Brent, Hopefully you can get this worked out with them and enjoy your stove without this aggrevation. Good luck.