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"Leader in Wood Gasification Boilers"

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by boilermanjr, Jul 10, 2013.

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  1. boilermanjr

    boilermanjr Member

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    I wonder about the claim in the title of this posting made by a well known boiler company when the warranty document, plumbing diagrams, and other printed content are exact copies of our work. So much for the quoted heading on their home page and this from one of their manuals with our work in it:
    "Often copied but never duplicated".

    My posting is shameless, but nowhere near as shameless as the plagiarism of our work.

    When someone asks why our boilers can sometimes cost a little more to purchase, the use of our work by our competition without permission or attribution is just another reason.

    Feeling Good About Wood, but fatigued by BS in the wood burning industry.

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  2. NE WOOD BURNER

    NE WOOD BURNER Minister of Fire

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    This is such a widely used slogan! sort of like "Best Hamburger in Town"

    Plagiarism is the ultimate form of flattery!

    I am not understanding why this would make your prices higher?
  3. Seriously?

    Get over it. Or do something about It.


    Whining about 'others' stealing your work and 'profiting' from it on a Internet forum is lame. Especially when you don't name names.
    BoilerMan likes this.
  4. boilermanjr

    boilermanjr Member

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    I guess the point I am trying to make is that there are companies that are honestly competing, contributing to the industry as a whole, and acting as the tide that raises all boats (owners, industry, and regulators). Ours is certainly not alone. I am looking at the banner of a good company as I write this. There are other companies choosing to make bold claims while "borrowing" (to put it nicely), the work of others and doing nothing to increase the quality or reputation of the industry.

    As for pricing, higher is a relative term. Taking the work of others saves on overhead. If everyone operated by what some consider flattery, there would be zero innovation or forward progress.
  5. So lets get this straight. The president of tarm biomass believes New horizon can sell boilers at a lower cost because new horizons is not a good company? And they have 'borrowed' stuff?

    : popcorn:

    I'm guessing sales are slow?
  6. NE WOOD BURNER

    NE WOOD BURNER Minister of Fire

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    Well if you use this slogan? Then you invite the plagiarism. Ask them kindly to give you credit for your "original" work at a minimum and the marketing alone should be payment.
  7. pen

    pen There are some who call me...mod. Staff Member

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    I suggest you call up Bob Fisher about your concerns.
    BoilerMan likes this.
  8. NE WOOD BURNER

    NE WOOD BURNER Minister of Fire

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    On a different note: Hearth.com is a place to share, supported by advertisements I believe? Do you advertise Here? The wealth of Knowledge here and willingness to share is a great service to the consumer. Supporting advertising companies Is encouraged on Hearth.com home page? If things are slow I would highly recommend Hearth.com for advertising. Many companies are sending clients to this site and risking losing their clients to competition but I believe those that do want informed consumers and that just improves the industry as consumers will be looking for high end equipment as they venture/progress into central heating with wood boilers. IMHO
    BoilerMan likes this.
  9. boilermanjr

    boilermanjr Member

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    NE Wood burner, I appreciate the more constructive tone. I get the point about Hearth.com and the fact that advertisers support the industry by supporting the forum. We advertised with hearth.com for many years, and continue to support the site through Google display advertisements. We send piles of customers to this forum and enjoy the richness of it ourselves.

    I do want to make two things clear because it seems that some of what I wrote has been misinterpreted. The claim about being "The leader..." and "Often copied..." is not our claim and was not intended to be viewed as our claim.

    Also, I also did not render a good or bad judgment on any company. This and a few other comments/questions seem to be construed as my ideas, but they are yours alone.

    As I wrote, I am fatigued by non-participation in positive efforts that benefit all companies. To elaborate, these would include working on test methods, standards, legislative efforts to improve laws that encourage broader use of wood fuel in various forms, joint industry marketing efforts, etc. The goal is to improve the utilization of wood as a fuel while improving the image of the industry, which is badly tarnished at the moment. Take a look at the BTEC roster or the membership of HPBA to see some of the companies that are working hard on the behalf of everyone. These groups don't represent all of the companies putting in big efforts, but are easy spots to look for some of them.

    When the same companies that wait for others (again, there are many good companies putting their shoulder to the wheel) to do the heavy lifting and then take the direct work of others for commerce without permission it is something that boiler owners and prospective customers might want to know about. Often people buy for philosophical reasons as well as price.

    We do spend a significant amount of time working on drawings and post them on our site for all consumers to see and use. We encourage that use.

    You guys have made it clear as bouncers that I should take this outside, but not without giving me a swift kick. I'll heed your advice.
  10. You didn't name a company, but 30 seconds on Google reveals the company that uses the tag line "Leader in wood gasification boilers" (new horizons)

    You then went on to say

    To me you are pretty clearly rendering judgment about your competitors.:confused:

    If new horizons did in fact
    You should take legal action. Otherwise your posting comes off as sour grapes.
  11. NE WOOD BURNER

    NE WOOD BURNER Minister of Fire

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    boilermanjr: I am not a bouncer! I would love to see a banner ad on this site. I enjoy seeing the different banner ads especially the local to me ones such as Woodstock. Your frustration has brought forward much positive information on your companies activities that would be beneficial in your advertisements.
    It is the way of the internet: why reinvent the wheel if the work has been done? is the new philosophy talk to school teachers about it.
    I hope I did not say that you rendered a judgment on any company.
    I took your post as a frustrated businessman. You are not alone all businesses are having tough times. Associations are always short of help and support.
    As a residential consumer it is more than confusing to get into central heating with wood at this time. The laws are written with a huge bias and has defined Hydronic heating base on traditional OWB and then approves certain units so They can then purchase EPA compliant OWB at a reduced cost for their own use. Would it not be better if NH could heat their town barns and municipal campuses with a system that is much more sustainable?
    NH does not require a huge dollar to change laws. It does however require companies like yours to educate planning boards, conservation commissions and regional planning commissions. You are more than welcome to contact me and I can share approaches that maybe beneficial to you and the industry.
    Sorry if you thought I was not being constructive.
  12. pen

    pen There are some who call me...mod. Staff Member

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    I can certainly see this as being a frustration and a real problem that is unfortunate. However, that is business. Tough to find a business that hasn't seen this very same problem.

    Keep being a leader and find ways to keep your name at the top and let the rest run down your back for your own sanity / health sake.

    pen
  13. leon

    leon New Member

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    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________


    I would be very happy if HSTarm started making the wood and coal boliers again or as custom orders
    as I would buy one in a heart beat but I do not see this happening either SO I am going to replace my locally
    built 31 year old steam rated wood and coal boiler with a Harmon in the near future.
  14. hobbyheater

    hobbyheater Minister of Fire

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    From the prospective of being a long time user of wood gasification: when we bought our Jetstream, our two previous boilers were smoke dragons. Tarm was building a solid product but still pretty much a smoke dragon and with no hint of gasification or using storage at that time. Leading the way?
    mikefrommaine likes this.
  15. BoilerMan

    BoilerMan Minister of Fire

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    I think it was Gates Belts back in the 80s that said something like "By the time they've copied it, we've come up with something better"

    That's a good business plan to me.

    TS
  16. NE WOOD BURNER

    NE WOOD BURNER Minister of Fire

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    [​IMG]
    IMHO: This is a great model for someone looking for a turnkey install. but if you want to sell boilers in numbers this is not a great business model.
    "short on marketing" I can't see this having any benefit for a business.

    to encourage installation by trained dealers is great, but hurts sales of the boiler. For a guy like me that is a DIY.
    Tarm Biomass imports and distributes HS-Tarm and Fröling wood, wood pellet, and wood chip boilers. We are wood burners at heart, focusing on wood as means for energy independence, rural economic strength, and forest stewardship. Knowing that what we do is only sustainable if our products burn cleanly and operate efficiently, cost little to operate, and exceed our customer’s expectations, you will find that we are short on marketing and long on truth. We encourage professional installation by trained dealers because we know that quality starts with the equipment and ends with the experience. We look forward to serving you
  17. VT_Bubba

    VT_Bubba Member

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    Just a quick Thank You to the TARM Team ! I personally do not own a TARM, but have total respect for your work and products. Your Multi-Boiler documentation was a major help to me when I installed my HF60. Unfortunately, I could not afford a Tarm at that time. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and work with the world.

    VT_Bubba
  18. BoilerMan

    BoilerMan Minister of Fire

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    I agree, when I spoke with Marc Calue at the NE Forest Products Expo (drove 3 hours with talk to him and Dean and the other Marc)
    Marc Calue said and I quote "It's my goal to sell a boiler (Windhager) to anyone who wants to buy one".

    This means some "unqualified" person (like me in the eyes of this state) can buy a boiler and install it themselves. There is nothing that ticks me off more than going to a wholesaler and them standing on the other side of the counter and tell me they can't sell me a product because I don't have an account......which I am not allowed to apply for because I'm not a master plumber etc. I stood there and told the guy, hey this cooks my goose, I'm and electrician and any joe-shmo can got to Lowes and buy wire, an entrance panel, meter socket and all the Romex their heart desires and wire their house. But I can't come in here and buy some PEX-a (Wirsbo) or the Zone valves that I like, or American made Ward fittings etc. I do have a good working relationship with them now, but it was maddening buying stuff on ebay all the time just to get what I wanted.

    On the flip side of this argument, only selling products to qualified persons means you "should have" a quality install. Having worked in several trades, I can tell you there are hacks out there, but for the most part pros are pros, and at least understand what it is that they are working with.......for the most part. This does not mean, however, that a DIY or learned homeowner always does sub-par work, on occasion it is the other way around. That is rare, but there should be a provision for the HO to have access to a product if they so feel.

    TS
    flyingcow likes this.
  19. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh please...not here.
  20. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    I lamented the same deal when I owned Tarm!

    Back at the time there were almost no competing boilers, but OWB's were selling 20X as many as we did.

    One of those great lessons of life - you can have the better products, the better marketing, the better people and the best R&D - and still the PT Barnum thing reigns supreme. Some of my dealers were selling 10 Taylor OWB's (which would rot in a few years) to every Tarm.

    Moral of the Story? Many.
    Build a better mousetrap and the world WILL NOT beat a path to your door. This was verified in an entertaining piece on NPR one day by the CEO of the Victor Mousetrap Company. I even know a guy who patented a better mousetrap - I use it for some of my inventor classes and seminars. He never made a dime (lost money, in fact)....

    Truth is, the cost of educating people is higher than the cost of fooling them. This gets back to the issue of regulation because European countries excluded the inefficient models in that fashion....so the consumer (and the air, etc.) was protected from himself.

    But this gets to be a "world view" and "political" argument. We are never going to save people from themselves....especially in the USA where regulation and Big Gubment is frowned upon. Of course, NH has always especially been such a place!
    ;)

    All that said, I understand the frustration. I had it years ago when I owned the place!
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