Leaning chimney

[tuxfour]

I've searched on this forum but have been unable to find any relevant discussions that would help me with my problem.

Anyway, I recently had my chimney inspected and was told that it is leaning. It is an exterior chimney and is leaning slightly toward the house above the roof line. The Chimney sweep told me I had to tear it down to the roof line and rebuild for $4500. It sounds like a reasonable price for the job but my question is how much of a lean is a dangerous lean? The house is 87 years old and its taken this long for it to lean this far. $4500 isn't in the budget right now and this isn't the house I plan on living in for the next 40 years. My thinking is that I could:

A. leave it alone. It's been 87 years and it hasn't fallen yet(I'm kind of nervous about this option)

B. Leave it alone until I can work it into the budget.(If going with this option I'd need to know where to put it priority wise since there are LOTS of things I could be spending my money on.
or
C. Brace the chimney to the roof like they do in earthquake areas. Essentially a strap of steel around the chimney attached to a 45 degree steel brace to the roof. This seems like a decent option to me since it should stop further leaning and not cost much at all to do. It would not be the most aesthetically pleasing thing but the eaves of my house would hide it at most viewing angles.

Thanks ahead of time for your help.

I've attached two photos. The front view through the tree should show the lean toward the house. The picture itself is a little crooked but if you put a ruler or something next to it using the siding as a horizontal reference you should be able to see the lean.

 

[kevinmoelk]

A. You can do this, but I'd set up a way to track the chimneys movement.

B. No comments, more of a personal decision there

C. I don't think this would help if the chimney is actually moving. Your framing is going to be no match for the weight of the chimney.

There are a few factors of why chimneys lean. Depending on how bad the lean is, it may have been built that way. It's hard to discern the extent of the lean from your pictures. From my reseach (which admittedly is not very in depth on this subject) one of the most common causes of a chimney lean is the footing of the chimney structure itself. If that is the case, then tearing down only a portion of the chimney, and rebuilding upon the same insufficient base is a waste of money, imo.

The very first thing I would do would be to get a second, third and fourth opinion on the matter. I'd be hesitant to throw $4500 bucks at a chimney sweeps suggestion.

-Kevin

 

[Rhone]

I saw a chimney learning like this while walking the Marginal Way in Maine. Do you have any pictures taken during the day and not night?

 

[Roospike]

photo edit.

 

[Highbeam]

It kinda looks like the lean only occurs once the chimney rises past the roofline. Is that correct? Are there any cracks in the masonry? It gives me the creeps, I would call more masons. It goes way beyond minor in my eyes.

 

[bruce]

maybe it was built that way,, i'v seen many like this that stand forever, if its solid leave it alone

 

[tuxfour]

Thanks for the replies and the photoshoping. Keep them coming.

The pictures were taken before I left for work one morning but I will go out tomorrow and take some in the sun.

I had the original chimney sweep/mason look at it a week or two ago and I had another mason look at it today. Both told me that it is leaning from the roof line up and that fixing it would require rebuilding from the roof line. It definitely appears to be leaning only once it passes the house.

I have no evidence that the chimney is actually moving though, so it could very well have been built that way. Hopefully people can get a better idea as to the degree of lean with some better pictures tomorrow.

So you don't think a brace would do much good? According to some googling it is quite common in earthquake regions. The brace is typically supported by spanning at least three joists with steel. I have no doubt that if the chimney fell it would go right through the roof but I would think the brace would keep it from moving any further since it doesn't have to hold up the entire weight of the chimney, just keep it from tipping. Once the brace was installed a repointing probably couldn't hurt in case there are any cracks in the mortar on the side of the lean. From what I can tell the mortar joints are in fairly decent shape though I have not actually been up on the roof to get a close look. I'll try to get some pics of that tomorrow as well. according to mason #2 the chimney has been repointed "a couple of times". His ballpark quote was $5200 btw.

I don't want to be overly paranoid but I have a hard time believing the masons aren't slightly biased since if they say the chimeny is fine they leave without a dime. Perhaps opinions 3 and 4 should be scheduled for next week some time. I just need to figure out a way to get a mason to look at the chimney without saying that I think its leaning. Regardless of what I do it will have to wait until warmer weather. I'm quite confident that it isn't going anywhere till then at least. Barring hurricane or freak wind that is.

Thanks again for all the feedback. This is one of the friendliest forums I've come across in a while.

 

[Marty]

... a repointing probably couldn't hurt in case there are any cracks in the mortar on the side of the lean...

I would think this would indicate that it was not built that way if there were...

Consider a home inspector who could look for those signs, or do it yourself if you feel comfortable up on the roof.

If you find you need to fix it you may want to look into other Class A chimney structure options above the roof that might be less costly while you are getting estimates.

I would think masons would tend to look at it as a brick job while a sweep or qualified contractor might see other possibilitys.

The brace seems like a possible tempory fix but I would think it would have to be addressed eventually.

Best of luck.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Tuxfour, do you perhaps know the former owners of the house? Is it possilbe some neighbors might be able to confirm/deny the chimney lean on the home, or if any work has been done? Maybe there is a town record or old photograph of the home? Just a thought.

-Kevin

 

[webbie]

Braces used to be used on many chimneys like this - there are a bunch around here.
https://www.hearth.com/gallery/pics/chimney/source/holy1.html

There are some near here in Holyoke that are leaning more than yours is - if yours is lined with stainless it is probably OK for now - bracing it and using a laser to see how far off it is (and keeping track on a yearly basis) will give you an idea of how fast it is moving.

Then, when you win the lottery or come up with an extra 5K, you can repair it for good.

 

[tuxfour]

Well it took me longer than I thought to get my butt in gear and take some better pictures but here they are. The picture from the rear really illustrates the amount it is leaning. Thanks to the 10X zoom on my camera I was able to get a good look at the mortar on the top without climbing up on the roof. It definitely looks like its been repointed and I wouldn't say professionally either. My current plan is to call another mason or two. If I am convinced that the chimney isn't going to fall over then come spring I will fashion a brace and either have it installed or install it myself then get the chimney professionally repointed. From there I will monitor the chimeny on a fairly regular basis.

Sound like a horrible idea to anyone? Do these new pictures point out more of a problem than what you previously thought?

The other thing I'm weighing with my decision is that I will be selling the house probably within the next 5 years. I'm bouncing between fixing it so it doesn't come up as a hurdle to selling later or waiting and just reducing the sale price accordingly.

Thanks again to all of you for your input.

 

[Corie]

I have a hard time understand where the lean comes from. I mean, mortar and bricks aren't exactly what I would describe as elastic materials.

Before going with the monitor and pray option, I think I would have a few more opinions from other professionals. However likely it may seem, it would be a real shame for the chimney to fall over on the house.

 

[kevinmoelk]

To me it looks like the entire structure is leaning over, not just the portion above the roof line. I'd be real hesitant to spend the bucks without a few more quotes.

-Kevin

 

[tuxfour]

Agreed. I do intend to get at least 2 or 3 more quotes. Regardless of what decision I make nothing can be done until spring. That's my understanding anyway.

It is pretty much just above the roofline though. The view from the rear is deceiving because you can't tell where it does meet the roof. It meets the roof at about the same height as the gutter above the door in the rear view.

 

[Gooserider]

I would suggest getting at least one or two of the inspections from someone like a home inspection service (check their credentials) that will charge for looking, but don't have a vested interest in selling you the repair job... I would also want to see the "point of failure" that is causing the lean in order to make sure that the repair actually will fix the problem - I would echo Kevin's concerns about the possibility of a bad foundation or other problem lower down in the structure than the roofline.

Gooserider

 

[berlin]

do you have an oil or gas furnace hooked to your chimney? were the flues at one time unlined? the chimney was not "built that way" it also is not a foundation issue. certain mixes of mortar are more prone to this than others. the mortar joints expand from salts and moisture seeping from flue gasses, this usually happens on the "cold" side of a chimney, aka side facing north, prevailing winds etc. It's not yet leaning enough to warrent rebuilding from the roof up, although that is the only way to correct it. it may not lean any more should the unlined flue now be lined. a competent mason should know this.

 

[kevinmoelk]

do you have an oil or gas furnace hooked to your chimney? were the flues at one time unlined? the chimney was not "built that way" it also is not a foundation issue. certain mixes of mortar are more prone to this than others. the mortar joints expand from salts and moisture seeping from flue gasses, this usually happens on the "cold" side of a chimney, aka side facing north, prevailing winds etc. It's not yet leaning enough to warrent rebuilding from the roof up, although that is the only way to correct it. it may not lean any more should the unlined flue now be lined. a competent mason should know this.

Berlin, I agree it probably wasn't built that way. We were all looking at the first round of photos, which were inconclusive at the time. Examining the second set, yes I'd agree it was not built that way.

I'm curious, do you have any reference material on the statments you have made above? I'm not picking a fight, but wouldn't you agree it's pretty hard to do distance diagnosis? How can you say for certain that the footing is not at fault?

I've never heard anything concerning expanding mortar from salts and flue gasses. My parents own a house on an island that is more than 100 years old, and have a chimney that is unlined and does not suffer from any of the conditions shown in these photographs. And an oil furnace is used, and the prevailing wind has lots of salt. The hardware on the home is constantly needing attention due to the salt air. Perhaps it is the type of mortar used, or perhaps it was rebuilt at one time, but I believe the chimney is original to their home.

Again, not picking a fight, but just satisfying my curiosity, and asking for some clarification. Thanks.

-Kevin

 

[berlin]

It only happens in certain mortars, and then only if the flue gas temps are not hot enough to prevent condensation in the flue. sometimes it happens even in tile lined flues, if the other two factors are in play and the tile joints are not sealed well with clay. i've personally seen it many times, and often much, much worse than the chimney in question. when i say salts, i don't mean sodium chloride. i'll see if i can find some information that explains it better than i can off-hand.

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/services/chimney.htm

second paragraph from the bottom:
http://www.structural.net/news/Media_coverage/media_se_radial_brick.html

 

[jjbaer]

I've searched on this forum but have been unable to find any relevant discussions that would help me with my problem.

Anyway, I recently had my chimney inspected and was told that it is leaning. It is an exterior chimney and is leaning slightly toward the house above the roof line. The Chimney sweep told me I had to tear it down to the roof line and rebuild for $4500. It sounds like a reasonable price for the job but my question is how much of a lean is a dangerous lean? The house is 87 years old and its taken this long for it to lean this far. $4500 isn't in the budget right now and this isn't the house I plan on living in for the next 40 years. My thinking is that I could:

A. leave it alone. It's been 87 years and it hasn't fallen yet(I'm kind of nervous about this option)

B. Leave it alone until I can work it into the budget.(If going with this option I'd need to know where to put it priority wise since there are LOTS of things I could be spending my money on.
or
C. Brace the chimney to the roof like they do in earthquake areas. Essentially a strap of steel around the chimney attached to a 45 degree steel brace to the roof. This seems like a decent option to me since it should stop further leaning and not cost much at all to do. It would not be the most aesthetically pleasing thing but the eaves of my house would hide it at most viewing angles.

Thanks ahead of time for your help.

I've attached two photos. The front view through the tree should show the lean toward the house. The picture itself is a little crooked but if you put a ruler or something next to it using the siding as a horizontal reference you should be able to see the lean.

This is not only a mason job but you also need the opinion of a structural engineer. I'd get them both out there together to look at it and "knock heads" (think about it together as a team) and then have them tell you what they think...... just a thought from an engineer......

 

[bruce]

if your going to pay a engineer top dollar, should just pay the 5000 and tear down and rebuild, that is a very fair price, maybe a little low

 

[elkimmeg]

tux do you own a level? place a level on the wall that supports the chimney and report back here your findings. To me , it looks as if the entire gable end has shifted inward towards the structure here could be structual issues within the roofing and gable end structure that caused the shift inward. If the chimney were pulling away, most times that is an indication for foundation or footing settlement . This one is tilting towards the structure. It also extends quite a bit above the structure unsupprted. Todays code would call for it being braced.

Don't lean a ladder against it at the top to view it. I can tell you roofing many times, older extended chimneys were treated with kid gloves. the movement is scary

A ladder acts like a wedge as you climb it it applies your weight to the chimney It wants to push that chimney in the opposite direction of the ladder and weight applied the longer the ladder extention the more flex applied to an unsupported older chimney. Believe me think about it ,not the shtuation you want to be in half way up that lasdder and the chimney topples over.
I'm earning better safe than sorry today.

 

[jjbaer]

if your going to pay a engineer top dollar, should just pay the 5000 and tear down and rebuild, that is a very fair price, maybe a little low

Bruce,

the $4500 was only to tear it down to the roof and rebuild it...that could be money down a rat hole if the problem is the very base or foundation itself...........with that much $ at risk, I'd make darn sure what needs doing before I sunk dollar one into it.....