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Let's see how my dealer handles this problem

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by wahoowad, Feb 14, 2006.

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  1. Sundeep Arole

    Sundeep Arole New Member

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    My dealer (who I am not such a fan of either, but in the end he did come around for me) claims that Jotul has done them dirty. The dealers here can confirm this or not, but apparently Jotul forced dealers carrying both Jotul and Lopi to choose between the two lines. My dealer stuck with the Lopi. Or at least that is his version. If so with your dealer, they may not feel obligated to service Jotul anymore. Of course, I think it is still their problem, if they sold it they agreed to service it. Any dealers here care to confirm or deny this story about Jotul?

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  2. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    I can't confirm of deny, but I don't see why Jotul would have a problem with Lopi. I cannot really see where their lines compete much. Maybe a Bedford gas insert.
  3. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Just off the cuff, this sounds like BS.....can't imagine Jotul doing this. Most stove companies compete on the basis of their products and don't use such tactics. Our shop carried Jotul, Vermont Castings, Avalon, FPX and many others....

    Now, a stove company can set up incentives to make it worth it for you to buy more from them, but locking out competitors is not something I've heard much of.
  4. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    First of all, I think the fact that you are counting the days and posting it here shows that you may be a little in overkill mode. In general, you will get more bees with honey.....

    By picking up the stove and installing it yourself, you have at minimum agreed to be responsible for many aspects of the stove. You can't have it both ways.....

    I'm certain if you brought the stove back to them, they would look at it instantly....and, after all, you picked it up...

    The problems that you are mentioning seem to be minor. In general, details such as paint and gasket touch-up, door latch adjustment and so on are the responsibility of the installer.

    There is a difference between warranty and hand-holding. I feel certain that if there are defects with your stove that they will be taken care of. Talk reasonably to the dealer and see if you can arrange then to stop by when they are driving by or in the area.
  5. HarryBack

    HarryBack New Member

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    Actually, Im fairly sure the dealer offers no warrantee above and beyond the warrantee given by Jotul. If its true that Jotul "did them dirty", they may no longer be a authorized service center for Jotul, may no longer have parts availability, and therefore COULDNT service the stove. SO, some other dealer, or Jotul itself will have the onus of fixing problems with the stove.
  6. wahoowad

    wahoowad Minister of Fire

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    Craig, what should I count when it comes to dealer responsiveness? Weeks? That aside, posting it here is between me and my friends here. I have not named my dealer by name or town so there is no "overkill" IMHO. And I am exceedingly polite and conscientious when I engage them because, unfortunately, I am at their mercy since they are the only game in town. Dealer service, warranty, etc. are very common topics here and this thread attempts to portray one man's experience, as it unfolds, and allow others to follow it, add advice, or even challenge my 'tactics.' It's OK with that that you have disagreed with my motives as long as it is OK for me to respond in my defense.

    AND when you say
    frankly, that sounds like 'dealer speak' if you ask me. I take it you were a dealer. Well, I'm not asking him to fix my puffs of smoke in the house, my downdrafts, my messy ashes. I understand the difference between what is suspected as a possibly assembly issue and an installation issue. I am pursuing my concerns about a possible assembly/warranty issue professionally with them, and ranting a bit about it here. Big difference, and I ask you to not insinuate otherwise.

    That said....I stopped by there after work. I looked at the floor model for 15 full minutes without being approached. I eventually engaged a service guy assembling a stove near me and chatted about stove assembly issues that we thought relevant. The guy who said he would call stopped by and I asked him if he heard back from Jotul. He had (not sure when, not sure when he was gonna call either). He said Jotul said it was normal. I asked him "How did you describe my problem to them?" and he said "I don't remember." Now, that strikes me as odd. Mind you, only a couple days have gone by, and apparently they do not make a lot of service calls to Jotul. He could not remember a single technical detail. I asked if he minded if I talked to Jotul myself in case I remembered something additional to tell them, or they had further questions and he said "go ahead" and I could find them on the internet. He seemed a bit peeved that I discussed technical aspects of this stove on the internet and did not take his word as the final authority on everything. Eventually I was given a 1-800 number.

    Finally, the problem may seem 'minor' only in that it is not a 'major' safety issue. But my stove does seem to run colder than most and missing half of my reburn could be the cause. It is worth pursuing, especially given all I learn along the way here from everybody. I could have a leak or something and an obvious colder part of my stove is the best clue I have. I paid ~$2,000 for a wood burning appliance and feel it reasonable to pursue the last 10% of efficiency and heat I seem to be missing.

    No offense intended to you, Craig. You have a darn nice resource here and I appreciate your efforts in providing it. I grow increasingly confident with my stove given all I have learned here.
  7. HarryBack

    HarryBack New Member

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    man, I cant beleive Im saying this, but I agree with Craig. I do feel the dealer has certain obligations, and if the gasket is loose, paint messed up, then they should make it right. As for a soot deposit IN the stove, well, look it it, if it seems safe, he should pproclaim it so. But also, Craig makes a good point, in that often, you need to prioritize calls...your stove works, they didnt get install money. SO, eventually, they'll get out there, hopefully. What I dont like is the seeming test of service you are giving them. Since you did the install and delivery, the paints your problem....they dont know YOU didnt do it. They should remedy the gasket tho. The poor-latching latch, if out of adjustment is also YOUR problem....I see that as an installation issue. So, are you ok with paying them to fix the paint and the latch? I mean, their time should be worth something.
  8. wahoowad

    wahoowad Minister of Fire

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    I'mnot having or complaining of "paint and gasket touch-up, door latch " problems. I think Craig was generalizing about complaints some folks have and expect the dealer to remedy vs. true warranty issues. I'm an anal sumbitch but not that bad!
  9. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    One of the bargaining chips when dealing with warranty issues is that piece of paper, A certificate of compliance , that says your stove was installed
    correctly. At no time in your post have you stated you have it. Your stove dealer could make one phone call to the inspections dept and claim of knowing of a stove illegally installed. At that point, that dept can demand its removal or request you pull a permit and can assess tripple fees, should they desire. It is very hard to get warranty issues resolved for illegally installed stoves. You have no proof of it being correctly installed, other than I think so. Your installation manual clearly states that code compliance is necessary for proper opperations and you have no proof. other than claiming it, only your word. Now if you do have the certificate of inspections (compliance) then e-mail it to Joutul and your dealer as proof. This can only make your case stronger. It is a stove issue and not allowing your dealer to pass the buck claiming an installation issue is at fault. If you were a neighbor or friend of mine in my town and were having a problem, where I knew your stove were installed correctly. I would make the call to your dealer telling him to get it resolved and I know it is not an installation issue. IT is my belief,that they might take my call a little more serious and respond knowing, they will be inspected again installing another stove in my town. Really it is not a good idea to have a pissed off inspector. If I could think of the solution to help you I would.
  10. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I'd say considering you paid considerably over list price for the stove that Jotul and the dealer should at least investigate the problem. You've paid for it. My understanding is that MSRP on this stove is $1549 (assuming your stove is enameled). I paid below that and got a much dealer response. Does Jotul know that the dealer is charging above MSRP?

    You've reported 3 incidents all related to secondary combustion problems. Given that there was black goo leaking out of the secondary intake when you first started up the stove, there has been uneven burning, that gasket parts fall out and there is what appears to be excess or gasket build up on or around the secondary baffle, this seems like enough to trigger a proper investigation. I can understand wahoo's POV. In his circumstance, I'd want to have a trained eye of the serviceman looking when he pulls the secondary manifold in case there has been an error by Jotul.
  11. precaud

    precaud Minister of Fire

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    I don't think they care. And to my knowledge, there is no official MSRP; the shipping costs vary so much across the country because their distribution is a combination of direct sales and regional distributors. For example, I see F602's retail for $599 on the east coast, which strikes me as a realistic price for it.. Here in Santa Fe I paid $799 for mine, and in Albuquerque they go for $929. Since there's usually only one dealer in each town, and since Jotul discourages internet sales, the dealer can charge whatever they like.
  12. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Wahoo is in the Va area, much closer to Jotul USA than Wa. By the shipping costs, my price should have been the highest. When I called around to buy my stove there was a variance of about $200. None were above msrp. But that may be because we have many dealers in the area. I got prices from 5 and stopped when there was a pattern developing. FWIW, I ended up buying from the store that had the best combination of price (but not lowest), reputation and longevity.
  13. tutu_sue

    tutu_sue New Member

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    Based on my years making pissed off customers happy for a large utility company - don't worry I don't work for them anymore - I wonder if the dealer would be willing to have their tech check the stove out if Wahoowad offered to bring it to the shop. Then their getting paid for a service call would no longer be an issue and he would be meeting them more than half way. I'm sure they would see it that way, too. It's worth a try. What the heck, they might even be motivated to hook up to their chimney for a test...bring the rear tee...

    I hope that Wahoowad listed himself as the installer on his permit application and his town signed off on him being the installer. Then we can say that his government officials consider him a qualified installer. It's also very important to have them sign off with a final fire inspection. This validates the safety of the installation so that God forbid something happened his homeowner's insurance would not give a hard time paying out. I have heard that insurance companies will not pay for damage caused by illegal installs.

    In Feb. 2004, we went to two dealers in NJ and purchased from the second. The first had a bunch of kids running the place, didn't know anything about stoves and half the store was closed off due to a fire - not a good sign. The second store had an end of season sale going on and we had a $75 off incentive we got off the Jotul web site. We paid $1,024 for the matte black stove.
  14. wahoowad

    wahoowad Minister of Fire

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    Please, don't tell me how cheap you bought your stove! :) I knew I was dealing with the only show in town and I paid full price (and apparently more!) in a moment of weakness!

    And, since this thread appears to have disintegrated, I'll pass along one more quote from my dealer. He never once mentioned the need for, or the requirement for a home inspection. I only learned of that online here. I casually mentioned I was planning on having the county inspector come out and he made a face and said "why would you want to do that?" Haha.
  15. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    What a smuck. ( your dealer, nicest way I could express it), he should know what is required . I guess he can't read, as the requirements of code compliance is in every manufactures manuals, or has never taken the time to read the first two pages of the products he sells. Shame on Jotul, for having a guy like this in your distribution network. Jotul got your ears on?
    your QC is being severly tested. I know that from time to time your reps monitor this forum. Time to step up to the plate and stop the carnage and start doing damage controll./ This is not the only Jotul product post concerning QC.
  16. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Hey Elk, before you give that dealer and Jotul too much grief remember that he is venting this stove through a six to eight inch adapter into an 80's vintage ZC fireplace uninsulated, 8/10 inch double walled exterior chimney in an uninsulated chase. And go back to this thread and look at what kind of a chance the chimney has to draft anyway given the proximity to that high pitched roof right next to it.

    http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/1256/

    A forest fire wouldn't make that chimney draft enough for an EPA II stove. I have the same problem with one of mine but I ain't blaming the dealer or Jotul.
  17. tutu_sue

    tutu_sue New Member

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    I have a copy of the 2003 NFPA 211 and checked local codes before designing our manufactured double wall chimney. We had to have 3 feet of pipe above where the chimney passed the top of the roof, plus 2 feet higher than anything within 10 feet. The highest thing within 10 feet is our roof ridge about a foot away and I put about 4 feet above just to be safe. I guess in the event of a chimney fire, the height prevents your roof and house from catching fire. In addition, the min clearance to the side of the house was 2", we have 6".

    With a total of 19.5ft of chimney with two 30 degree elbows we get good draft, but I'm still have a similar uneven burn problem with my F3 CB, but no backpuffing thank heavens. We're running 6 inches stove and chimney pipe diameter throughout.

    Good draft is very important but Safety First!!
  18. wahoowad

    wahoowad Minister of Fire

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    What problem are you having? Just like mine with the left corner?
  19. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    The height above the roof is to prevent any pressure differential between the structure and the chimney caused but wind and breezes. The wind needs to blow by the chimney, not bounce off the house and create turbulance around the chimney.
  20. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Had it with the F3CB and when I moved the F100 into its place on that chimney it has the problem too. With insufficient draft the stoves cannot create enough vaccum in the firebox to pull in sufficient secondary air. Therefore they create weak secondary burn across the back or most of the time only get enough pulled through for the secondary burn to weakly occur on one side. Below a setting of half on the primary air none occurs at all after a minute or two.

    Mine is caused because it is dumping into too large a flue. Yours is because that flue can never get warm enough to draft. You have that two inch open chamber on all sides of it, open at the top, and the empty chase around it soaking up all of the heat. That and you seriously need one of Craig's Extend-A-Flues to get the height of that chimney up there away from the roof.
  21. wahoowad

    wahoowad Minister of Fire

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    You had the same problem, Sue has the same problem, I have the problem. Another guy via email has the problem.

    I should start another thread about this...but when you say "draft", are you referring to the draft available at start up or the draft available once the stove "starts drafting"? Because I am confused by how this word is used sometimes. I do not have positive draft when I first open my cold stove. That's due to my outside cold ass chimney. But when my kindling is started i quickly "establish" draft and the fire will burn like the gates of hell if I give it all the air it wants. So i gotta admit some confusion over the use of the word draft. I feel like the stove burns fine because I can leave the air control wide open and burn through my load in 2 hours easy. It even does good at half open, and I'm just finally getting good at making the tiny adjustments Elk suggested it needs to find the sweet spot to extend my burns. It's a work in progress.

    And that chimney picture - it's from a misleading angle. It is well away from that roofline you see, and 5 feet above the roofline it is adjacent to. The pic makes it look differently.
  22. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy Minister of Fire

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    Not to be negative, but i think you will count in the high numbers before you get this resolved. This thread might go a while.

    And i think that your chimney is pulling so hard after its hot that the air supply is very intense in the front of the firebox and not letting the fire burn even. I see it every day on my burn display which is on SL300 heatilater pipe. 6 inch stoves like 6 inch pipe. Doenst mean that they wont work on a 8 inch pipe, but not work to there full potential on 8 inch pipe. Maybe you can put a inline damper to get a little more control. On my burn display (which is a hearthstone heritage) when i close the inline damper to about the 2 oclock position the fire box gets hotter, and my flue temps go down a bit and i get a more even burn. With it wide open, the air supply cuts the wood in half when its over drafting and leaves burned chards of wood on either side.

    I understand that you are having QC issues with the stove, and there is no excuse for that. But i dont think that it would be so messed up that it would effect the burn of the firebox in this way. Usually burn issues point to chimney issues. Not all the time but 99% of the time. From the perceived tone of voice that your dealer is taking with you it sounds like he has had it and is not going to help you. I wouldnt waste any more time with that and just call jotul direct. I will PM you some information. But if they say its no big deal then it probably isnt. Its a very small honest company that likes to get things resolved.
  23. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    How does your stove do with the temperature test? Are you seeing a significant temp difference on one side as compared to the other?

    Draft should not have a lot to do with the even heating of the stove top. I have strong draft and run with a draft damper. But even if I burn with the stovepipe damper open, the stove burns evenly and this is confirmed by the stovetop temps being relatively even from left to right sides.

    If you are seeing a significant difference, then it seems less likely that the problem is on the flue end. Unless both were patronizing me, the Jotul tech and dealer seemed to agree with me on this point. Once my top was set correctly, my temps evened right out.
  24. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    Is there any way to insulate say the last foot or so at the top to help keep the chimney hot? I have an outside masonary chimney with insulation wrapped around the last 1' of s/s liner right at the top. It seems to make a difference in my draft.
  25. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    With over 8500 post It is hard to remember all the details of earlier post.
    Thanks to brotherBart. I am looking at this issue in an entirely different way.
    One he has an illegal non permitted stove, incorrectly installed in a former ZC vent.
    No wonder he has not had it inspected? Is the ZC vent a class A approved for wood stove usage?

    If the dealer knows this info on your setup, he a knows he would making a free service call.
    Meaning he will come out there, and in a matter of monents declare it an venting installation issue.
    Man, you do not have a leg to stand on if he does. The others here with a correct install do.
    Human nature , if your dealer knows the setup, it's no wonder he is dragging his feet.
    I doubt your current setup, Jotul will be of much help either. The first advice they will tell you,
    is to bring your setup into compliance of the installation manual specs. After that is done and
    the stove is not preforming right, you have a legitimate gripe. But remember you called wolf once
    before, it will be much harder to get dealer support the next go around.
    Everyone here is trying to help you

    At this point You have two options

    1, live with it and tweak your routine to get the most out of your stove and venting setup.

    2. install an insulated compliant liner. Do it right
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