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Lil Powerhouse Boiler?

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by Hosted, Jan 9, 2009.

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  1. brad068

    brad068 Feeling the Heat

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    Paul, the best thing you can do is to stop right there. You obviously need to do more research and homework. 16 Ga.!?! are you kiddin' me!? Thats exhaust tubing for christ sake!! DD's aren't very efficient!!!! That design is the standard for the best efficiency. I will even admit that and I'm a huge garn fan. Have you seen a DD or a garn or a seton/greenwood in person in action? My guess is no. Because if you did you wouldn't be typing. Grainger a manufacturer? To the best of my knowledge they are a industrial supply company.

    You are correct about the poorly insulated underground piping but that is about it!

    I got a ? for ya'. Which is more efficient? A chunk wood heater burning full out or a chunk wood heater cycling?

    I did my homework on wood boilers and could of built anyone I wanted to but chose the garn design. Here is the link to my home built unit so you can see that I'm not blowing smoke and do know what I'm talking about. http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11262/

    I'm sure in your mind your unit is the best unit for the price, but you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

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  2. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

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    You talkin to me? Huh? Are ya? I din't think so.
    Sober up and try again on the morrow.
  3. brad068

    brad068 Feeling the Heat

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    Thanks Kenny!! I edited it.
  4. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Hi Garnification
    So I would like to solve your puzzel!! what you now need to give me is the rest of the information needed for the equation !! I need it all or your question is baseless !! How is the heat extracted from the fire in the chunk heaters ??How many btu's does the chunk heater hold?? How will we we use the heat (btu's per hour transfered off the system)? what type of device is used to extract the heat radiant hry heat,forced air, water to air,water to water,radiant base board,radiant tube ,cast iron radiators?? What type of wood dry, green?? what type of controls on the chuck heater cycling heater! are the cfms the same on both units! See if you want good answers you need to ask real questions!! Its like me asking so what color is my horse!! Well if thats all you get to go on all you can do is guess!! So give me the rest of the equation so I can answer !!
    Then lets talk your thermal storage theory!! Give me gallons of liquid held in your garn like unit then give me surface area of heat exchange,also needed is sq footage of outside shell and how it is insulated so we can see heat loss of your unit! What is ambient air in building? How many cubic feet is your fire box?? What is btu per hour heat draw off of this unit? How many cfms are used for your combustion?? Is this unit pressurized or vented?? What is exhaust stack size?? Than we can start to calculate this out and see how good it is!! I also would like for you to tell us how frequent you load your unit and how many gpms you are flowing on your unit as well as hot out and return line temps to house or buildings heated so when we are done we can see if your #s match !!I will also work with you to pick a government web site with both dry wood weight per # and btu,s per cord so we can calculate this in agreeable terms!! Utah state forrestry extension web site would have this and work for me or you chose one and let me know!!
  5. brad068

    brad068 Feeling the Heat

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    Paul, you by chance aren't a politician are you? I asked some simple questions and you skate around them and give me nothing but a waste of time. Do you understand why we use thermal storage, because if you don't than I can understand why you can't answer which heater is more efficient.

    Paul, John Doe has a 1972 Ford pinto with 116,273 miles, 2.3L automatic, blue, with one tire(driver rear), having 2psi less air pressure than the other (4),one occupant (driver), engine up to n.o.t.

    He is going to drive this car 20 miles in downtown Chicago and 20 miles on the open highway at a steady 55 mph.

    Which drive is going to be more fuel efficient? No politician answer either!
  6. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

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    Mr. Cheap-
    Would you perhaps have one of your units operating in the Rochester/Buffalo area?
    And again please, what type of warranty do you offer?
    Thanks-
    Kenny
  7. Tarmsolo60

    Tarmsolo60 Feeling the Heat

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    Depends on when the Pinto gets rear ended ;-P
  8. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    Paul,

    I agree with Garnification. How about some answers to our specific questions about your boiler rather than a whole lot of theory and hype?

    Again: What is your warranty?
    What components are supplied with your boiler (pumps, aquastats, blowers, etc.)?
    What brands of components do you use?

    These are questions not answered on your website and it seems to me that they would be basic information for any serious potential customer.

    I also agree that a downdraft gasifier is probably one of the most efficient designs around. I know that Garnification prefers the Garn design, but I think we both believe that each design uses a different approach to getting the same result.

    How can you say that a Euro-style gasifier is relatively inefficient when you have temps in the secondary burn chamber of 2,000 degrees F. and 300 degrees F. at the exhaust outlet? Where did the 1,700 degrees go? Can you describe the efficiency of your boiler in similar terms?

    On the question of heat storage, comparing an unburned chunk of wood to a bucket of water sitting out in the cold is, in my view, an irrelevant comparison.
  9. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    850 is not nearly enough to cleanly burn all the wood gases.........

    As many of us have learned the hard way, there are two parts to the equation - combustion - and then heat exchange. Some freestanding stoves like the VC Everburn models do a good job of igniting the gases...ending up with 1500 degree and hotter internal temps! But because they are limited by design (freestanding stove), they cannot squeeze out all the heat from those gases before they exit the stove - and that is why there has been problems with internal overheating, warping and flue collars glowing red.

    A boiler can solve all these problems, especially with storage. You can use extensive firetubes or other methods to extract the heat after high temp combustion...and then, if the house does not need the heat instantly, you can store it in water.

    Anyone who doubts the idea of storage mass should look at the heating of the earth, oceans and other such stuff...even the heating of a dark floor or wall in a passive solar setup. Or, just look at a hot water DHW tank! Yes, there is such a thing as instant hot water heaters but they don't burn wood - and have to be very high BTUs and instant-on.
  10. Ugly

    Ugly New Member

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    This has been painful to read. I actually squirmed in my seat.

    People on this forum pretty much know the value of burning wood or none of us would be here. We'd be in the "convince me I need to burn wood forum"

    The questions that keep getting repeated and not answered concerning warranty, construction etc.. make me wonder if there are any answers.

    If I put a drum of boiling water on a bed of burning wood, at least I'd know how to get it fixed, how long it would last and what equipment was supplied. I mean seriously, even a used car salesman tells you what options the model has. (no offense to the used car salesmen among us for using them in the comparison, because really there is none)

    Regards,
    Ugly
  11. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Hi moderator!
    Would be happy to answer your direct questions.

    warranty?
    WOW has a 90 day warranty!
    STD has a 3 year warranty!
    warranty is a parts replacement warranty not just some limited manufatures defect in materials ans workmanship that basicly covers a cracked weld !!
    Why I say this is some even have a life time warranty which in most states is seven years!
    You don't need a lawer to read our warranty and tell you it disclaimed everything as so many do! I'm not a politician I am a person who cares about his customers after the sale!
    Components included in price aquastate and this is a Love digital control!!
    Fan is a Dayton
    Solenoid is Dewyer
    Then you asked about the pump we use Taco pumps but they are sold seperatly as the only way to know what pump someone needs is to first design thier system so I don't see how someone of knoledge could expect that to be part of the system!! Yes some companys include a pump but I would sure be worried of thier system if they don't first understand your needs!!
    Ok lets talk gasification on the garnification system see the fan he is useing? looks like about a 2-3 hp motor what is electrical consumption?? then he states it will pull a large chunk of wood through if not careful that piece did not burn then!
    With the size of the fire box the cfm's must be way off for efficient combustion !(fuel to air ratio) unless the fan is so inefficiant and then why such a monster?
    Next with this type of gasification we will burn the whole load of wood and transfer heat into water for later use correct? what we know is D/D gasifcation runs the smoke through the coal bed to use the 1100 degree coal bed to ignight the gasses correct? So each time you load the furnace you must start a new fire correct! You now don't have a coal bed so you will not get 1700 degree fire till you have burn't a fair portion of the wood! During this process you will be creasoting up the flue tubes so they loose size as well as heat transfer ability!
    OK I hope we are on the same page so far and if we are or aaren't let me know and we can go to the next step of this equation!!
    NOW YOU ASKED MORE QUESTIONS ON MY UNIT AND I WILL EXPLAIN THAT AS WE GO ON BUT FIRST WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO TALK IN THE SAME LANGUAGE! AND D/D GASIFICATION SEEMS TO BE WHAT IS THE ISSUE HERE!!
    YOU HAVE 2 TYPES OF ANSWERS IN LIFE THE GUESS THIS IS THE WAY IT IS!!! AND THE CALCULATED ONE TO GIVE THE TRUES ANSWERS !
    EVERYTHING HAS AN EQUATION TO GET TRUE ANSWERS BUT LEAVE OUT 1 PART AND THE EQUATION BECOMES INVALID!!
  12. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Hi webmaster
    850 degrees is the spontaious cumbustion point of the wood gasses not the altimate burn temp anything below 850 will not burn the gasses !!
    So how do we get to the 850 is the first piece of the puzzel!!
  13. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    Depends on how you run it. Some people here start new fires every time, while others try to keep a live bed of coals over the nozzles at all times. The guys who do cold starts can get from nothing to gasification in under 10 minutes. It takes some practice and experience, but it's not that hard to do. No creosote involved. So within 10 minutes you've got gas burning at around 2,000 degrees and a 300-400 degree stack temps at the outlet.

    What are the average stack temps on your boiler?

    I'm one of those "keep a nice bed of coals in the firebox at all times" kind of DD operators. It works well in my situation because I have a big heat load. So any time I refill the firebox, I get instant gasification. No creosote there, either.

    I fail to see how a standard firebox-and-grate boiler with no refractory and no secondary burn chamber can compete with a DD gasifier. Does your boiler produce any creosote at all? The only place I ever get any creosote is in the firebox.
  14. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    I would like to make one thing clear i'm not against gassification but there are far better ways than down drafting!!
    Also down drafting can be far more efficient than alot of the outdoor boilers on the market today !!
    Lets just no think its a god send quite yet because there are to many issues left undisclosed!!
  15. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    1100 degrees is where we want to be to burn more efficently but is not the spontaius cumbustion temp! The hotter we get the cleaner we burn!!!!
    If It required 1100 degrees a cat would not work as they only take you up to 900 degree! The gasses light off and they are what create the heat to get to the higher burn for top efficiency!
  16. brad068

    brad068 Feeling the Heat

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    A catalytic! who uses a catalytic on a gasifier. Gasifiers burn so clean that they don't need a combustor. If you are using a cat on your boiler than you, my friend, have a long way to go in combustion chamber design. My unit will easily pass 2000*F in the secondary chamber which in turn leaves nothing but co2 and water. Doesn't get much cleaner than that.

    You still haven't answered my question about seeing several different gasifiers in person and working. But I think I know what the answer is going to be anyway.
  17. sparke

    sparke Minister of Fire

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    Cheap wood heat, Please stop using exclamation points at the end of every sentence. You are giving me a headache!! That said, can we cut through the chase? Here is the bottom line: many people do not believe your boiler can obtain the efficiencies you are claiming they achieve. So instead of discussing how other boilers work (which we all have a very good idea). Can we discuss what makes your boiler so efficient? Maybe you have stumbled onto something in your design. If you have I suggest you get your boiler tested by Omni- labs. They are known in the business and people generally trust their ratings. The UL/CSA rating speaks for itself...
  18. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Sparke
    Seems everyone would like to complain about somthing .
    So I have sold 7500 outdoor boilers in my life been involved with the outdoor boiler bussiness since 1979,built free standing wood stoves b4 that and do have my own test equipment mounted to my furnaces every day to monitor btu's ,burn temp ect!! Have burnt and tested the garn, greenwood , central boiler, heatmore, woodmaster, taylor, hardy,dahl, nordway,nordine, johnson and tarm and many indoor units!!. Lets here your story??
    I beleive there are Alot of people with very little knoledge here makeing big statements so they built 1 furnace and have copied some other furnace to start with seems you guys have some real knoledge. So alot of the coments here sorry coments come from people with seeming little knowledge and all I have asked is if you would give me some info for what you are saying so that I may give you back an educated answer and I just get more criticism towards my furnace I have answered most questions here but when you first sling mud you should at least be able to back it up!!
    If you have a boiler that you have built and tested with omni tell me about it otherwise why do you make this statement to me?? I must prove myself but you don't need to ??
  19. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

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    Paul-
    You gotta understand that there are a lot of "industry" people on here who need to protect their own thing and others who just jump on the most popular bandwagon.
    I appreciate your K.I.S.S. attitude but as a simple lay person, I wonder how good your product can be compared to all the others at twice the price?
    My dad told me that you get what you pay for and I've found that to be true most of the time, certainly not always.
    Is it really too much to ask for a referance in my area?
    If you hit the PM button down under my name, you can send me a Private Message.
    Thanks-
  20. Floydian

    Floydian Feeling the Heat

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    Cheap wood heat-To me this forum is about people providing information to help folks make informed decisions. I must say I don't think you have done a very good job of that. I am here to learn. So far I find your comments to be misleading at best.

    To quote sparke:"Can we discuss what makes your boiler so efficient?"

    Noah
  21. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

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    While I certainly don't know a thing about this boiler or its manufacturer, my intuition tells me he's one of those who is better with his hands than the spoken word so maybe a little patience and understanding will help set things right?
  22. brad068

    brad068 Feeling the Heat

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    Guys, I'm outa here.

    Paul the best advice I can give you is to get out of your "Branch Dividian" compound and see the rest of the world.

    Old sayin, "you can't push a rope"

    Its been fun,

    Garni
  23. EForest

    EForest Member

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    Paul,

    You must feel like an African American from 1950's Mississippi trying to sit at the front of the bus.
    Sell your stuff, prove your worth, or get the F... off the bus.

    No offense but please defend yourself or give it up.

    best of luck,
    Ed
  24. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    I don't see any "industry" bias in this thread, other than a manufacturer making unsubstantiated claims about his product. Paul appears to be making the sales pitch that he gives to people who don't know anything about wood boilers, which is to say most people who just want to save money and get the fossil fuel monkey off their back. Mention 32-hour burn times and some secret technology that produces superior efficiency, and you've set the hook. It's all about telling people what they want to hear.

    I don't mean to be harsh, Paul, but I've heard enough OWB sales pitches over the years to recognize the pattern. Long on big claims and short on relevant facts. How is your boiler different in design from, say, a Marathon Logwood or a Royall 6150? I've bought, installed and operated both, and I'd say you're using the same basic technology.

    Of course, how would we know? If you go to the New Horizon or the Tarm USA or the EconoBurn websites, the first thing you see is a cutaway diagram showing how the boiler works, along with specs, certifications, warranty information, etc. Those boilers are expensive, carefully-engineered and -manufactured appliances. Yet they're up-front about the basic technology. And, as anyone who follows this forum knows, they work as advertised.

    Claiming that your boiler is superior is one thing; proving it is the challenge.

    And finally, it's not a puzzle and it's not an equation. It's about explaining how the technology works in plain terms that we can all understand and analyze. You're asking us to drink your Kool-Aid so that you can explain your boiler design and combustion technology on your terms. Respectfully, if you want to sell boilers to this crowd, it's the other way around.
  25. steam man

    steam man Minister of Fire

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    I've had some throbbing pain reading most of this thread but Paul could help that if he would post all the data he's collected on all the boilers he has tested along with his so we can see how it compares. Yeah right.

    Mike
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