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Lil Powerhouse Boiler?

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by Hosted, Jan 9, 2009.

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  1. sparke

    sparke Minister of Fire

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    Cheap wood heat,

    I am far from slinging mud. I simply asked for information and made a suggestion. Why do my credentials matter? I am the prospective buyer. You are the seller. You are the one who needs to prove your credentials. If your boiler does what you say it does, I want to invest in your company!! You are still dancing around the questions. You are also losing your audience as most folks think you are not going to answer their specific questions. As far as the folks and knowledge on this web-site is concerned - Many folks here including professionals and DIY types take time to help other people in need of knowledge. Not asking for anything in return except maybe a written Thank You! I am not attacking you or your business in any way. I give you credit for jumping in this thread when the majority of posts towards your product are negative. People are expressing how they feel about your product. You took the time to post, so I assume you do care what people here think about your product. Instead of "throwing mud" lets start over. I have 2 questions:

    I want to know how your unit achieve efficiencies better then other outdoor units using a forced draft.

    You say it is proper air to mass ratio. How does the unit know what is the proper ratio and how does it adjust these ratios?

    I am truly interested. I have friends that build their own boilers from scratch. Even though I have a great boiler, I want to build one from scratch. I want to burn less wood. I want the satisfaction of having a highly efficient unit that I built with my own hands. So I will always be looking for ways to achieve better efficiency. If you have a way to help me in my quest I want to hear about it! Right now I am set on building a Garn style boiler. At the end of the day it is about burning the least amount of wood and reducing our carbon foot print that matters.

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  2. sparke

    sparke Minister of Fire

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    My post was being written at the same time as Eric's. He must of hit the submit button before me! Sorry for the redundancy ...
  3. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    Not to belabor the point, but I have trouble believing this after looking at pic of the boiler on the website (http://www.lilpowerhouse.com/):

    And this is a new one on me as well:
    This is what I mean about old-school boiler sales hype.
  4. Donl

    Donl Feeling the Heat

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    What got me is having sold 7500 outdoor boilers. That works out to selling at least one boiler every other day for the past 30 years. Not impossible I guess ,but I have my doubts.
  5. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

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    Paul-
    I tried Paul. I really, really tried. You leave me to make only one conclusion.

    I had a couple e-mail chats with Roger at http://www.fluemiser.com/ and he is also his own referance.
  6. Ugly

    Ugly New Member

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    I get 200 mpg per gallon on biodiesel on my 3/4 Dodge . Wait a minute, sanity check;

    A decent lab predicts 6930 Btu/pound of 2 year old seasoned hardwood. 500,000 Btu/hr equates to 72 pounds of wood per hour at 100% effciency (not possible to achieve).

    Since seasoned hardwood is normally 20 per cent water you lose 210 BTU per pound right off the top just to boil out the water vapour. (1050 Btu per pound water to boil it assuming no heat loss).

    I'm not going any further with the math, I'm going to let the numbers speak for themselves. For the sticklers, softwoods differ by 5% more energy per pound at equivelant moisture content.

    Don't take my word for the numbers, check the lab results and online publications from researchers for the amount of energy in wood yourself.

    I love the taste of snake oil in the morning.

    Regards,
    Ugly
  7. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Hi Guys
    Sorry I work night and day so not much time to post !!
    SO let me tell you how it works!!
    First start with dry cured wood normal cured wood will be 17% moisture or less!!
    Now my fire box size is 22"x24"x27" or a total of 8.25 cubic feet a cord of wood is 128 cubic feet if you devide 128 by 8.25 you get 15.5 loads of wood per cord in my furnace!!
    Now if you go to the Utah university forestry extension web site you will find white oak @ 29.1 million btu's per cord but I use 28 million as this is not 100% dry wood!!
    28 million btu's devided by 15.5 loades per cord you get 1,806,451.6 btu's per load devide this by 70% even though we achive up to 80% on this model when burning cured oak but poorer quallity woods will be less efficient!!
    1,800,451.6 x 70% = 1,264,516.1 Btu's of usable heat per load
    This equates to
    1 At a 50,000 btu per hr draw on the furnace you will get a 25.29 hr burn time
    2 At a 100,000 btu per hr draw = 12.64 hr burn time
    3 At a 250,000 btu per hr draw = 5.05 hr burn time
    4 At a 500,000 btu per hr draw = 2.52 hr burn time

    When we hit 500,000 btu's per hour we tipically run wide open no longer able to shut down!!
    Now with only 25 gallons of liquid we are able to get from 30 deg liquid to 150 deg in 30 min from a fresh firing with no coal bed so we must have dry wood !
    In about 40 mins we are up to 180 deg and shut off if no heat demand on furnace!!
    This is our poorest firing as we have no 1100 deg coal bed to use
    We have now transfered 31,125 btus into the water jacket (This equation is 180 deg - 30 deg = 150 degx25 gallons x8.3#s per gallon for 31125 btu's)
    From this point on we will only transfer the heat needed as the demand applies!
    We have now started our coal bed and will use this to reignight as well as reburn the gasses once all moisture has been released from wood! (wet wood will not burn in excess of 212 deg till all moisture is dried from it in a non-pressurized vessle!)
    Now when we fire with a coal bed we use the 1100 deg coal bed and force our air in under the coal bed from 6 different ports accross the full bed to enhance the thempeture above 1100 deg in the air space of the fire box!! once we hit 850 deg air temp in the fire box we start to spontanisly combust the gases the hotter we get the temp the better they will combust! the gases are what really produce the heat and if you just think of how hot hydrogen burns you can now see how we get temps in excess of 2000 deg in our burn box .
    If we burn at 2000+ degrees we can achive stack temps of 500 deg and loose some effiency! but most of our units are not burn't at max temp as we bank furnaces together for larger demands like green houses and such!
    All our intake air is pre heated and a solenoid opens the dampener and starts the fan at a 5 deg differencial.
    We start our air out at 7.56 sq inches and by the time we hit the maniford we have increased this to 16 sq inches this device along with our fan is what we call our turbosized draft as we needed to create the turbulance to get proper combustion! Now you have to disperse this air accros the coal bed so you dont just blast a hole in the coal bed or it will not work this is where the 6 port manifold comes in!
    Now we have achived our 2000 deg fire box temp but if we use 1/4 " steel to transfer through we can not trap the heat fast enough b4 it leaves the fire box so we use 16 ga steel to transfer which is 4 times as fast transfer rate. ( manufatures of odwb's have gone to heavy steel units because of deteriation/corrosion caused by the high volume of water when burning high moisture green wood) We also use 100% nontoxic boiler antifreeze in all our units for the best corrosion protection of the water jacket!
    We burn dry cured wood so we don't see the corrosion but just fill ours with green wood and see what happens! Thats right not good!
    Dry wood used wind and solar energy to dry the moisture out of it where green wood uses 1/2 the energy in it to dry the wood! green wood takes twice as much wood !
    The gases have 1/3 of the energy in them so don't burn the gas and loose 1/3 more
    You do the math
    Hope this helps as starters this is not simple but its not rocket science either!
    Now I would like to ask someone out there to work with me on large volume of liquid vs. small volume!
    What I need is some one to give me there firebox dementions as well as thier gallons of onboard liquid so we have somthing to compare!
    As you can see I have listed mine so I have given a starting point to all of you!
    We also have New prototypes we are building for the new EPA rules and they put this unit to shame but do cost more,we won't be putting this product to market till we feel it is as maintane free as we can build as many people buying are not into the high maintance thing!
    Thank
    Paul
  8. sdrobertson

    sdrobertson Minister of Fire

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    Wow - I'm not sure I'm reading this right but...On your facts page you suggest under Drying Wood that the "fuel wood be dried for three months to two years." There is no way you can get wood to 17% moisture or less in 3 months much less than a year. Please explain to me how you use the turbosized draft to create the turbulence to disperse this air across the coal bed from under the coal bed. If it goes up through the coal bed then when and where do you introduce the air to the wood gas to ignite it? Without a way to separate the fire from the water, how can it burn so hot? Every other boiler in the world uses some sort of way to separate the fire from the water and then a heat exchanger to move the heat from the exhaust to the water. Your boiler looks nice and clean on the outside, but I guess I need a drawing to show the insides so I can understand how your achieving this remarkable 2000 degree temps.
    As far as 25 gallons of fluid, it seems that your boiler would be running almost all the time to keep a house up to temp when its fairly cold out. Maybe this is how the boiler burns clean as it is always forcing air to the fire and never shuts down, but this would kill any burn time.
  9. Duetech

    Duetech Minister of Fire

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    Cheap wood heat/Paul,

    "What I need is some one to give me there firebox dimensions as well as their gallons of on board liquid so we have something to compare!"

    As per your request for comparative analysis. This link (cozyheat.net) will take you to a download for the manual for the EKO product line for further product comparison..

    Now for my operational comparison. My EKO40 has a water capacity of 24.5 gallons (that is treated to prevent corrosion but does not have anti-freeze in it), plus plumbing capacity, according to the manual. In my current setup I do not use storage so I have short cycle gasification and idle periods, much the same as you reference for your burn cycle scenario, and get an approximate burn time to your 100,000 btu rating (12 hours with red oak and red elm. . However you do not state your heat load or the weather conditions) listed for the Lil' Powerhouse Boiler (LPH) but with a smaller hopper capacity. The maximum wood capacity of the EKO40 is around 6.5 cu.ft. or about 26% less capacity than the 8.25 cu.ft. of the Lil' Powerhouse Boiler. Also I usually have a burn in progress 24-7 so I make use of an existing coal bed. With your LPH capacity on my boiler that would equate t a 15 hour burn time. To be specific the 12 hours of operation in cold weather are for ambient temperatures around 20-30*f with little or no wind and using red oak which is lower on the btu chart than white oak. The EKO40 uses steel pipes for heat transfer tubes extracting the heat from the exhaust gasses and the walls of the pipes look to easily be twice, and more, the thickness of the 16ga that you reference for the LPH. In comparison, at this juncture, it appears the EKO is more efficient and is structurally more sound than the LPH. The 16 ga seems fragile and more prone to stress failure if exposed to the wide spectrum of burning scenarios that many boilers are expected to endure. I don't really know but it sounds as though your unit is housed in a heated structure (??) while mine is in an unheated structure and unquestionably that has an effect on thermal output efficiency. Are the air settings for flame, air and combustible gasses adjustable with the LPH like they are with the EKO? The reason I ask is not everyone has white oak at their disposal and different woods burn differently and with non adjustable air/gas fixtures thermal efficiency will decrease in regards to boiler comparisons and types of wood burned. With my system I use a water/air heat exchanger in my oil furnace plenum and run a dhw sidearm heat exchanger so there is always a thermal degradation of my 24-7 water flow of water leaving and returning to the boiler. Are your pumps static dependent on heat demand? What type of water heat transfer method are you using? Water/air, radiant, baseboard? All of these heat loads will effect the way a boiler operates if there is no storage so the comparison you ask for must be qualified for accurate analysis.
    The actual dimensions of the primary chamber for my 40 are (front to back length) 21" x 17" wide x 33" deep but the bottom of the primary is in a V or U shape so the 33" is at the center and at the top of the nozzle. On the sides where the taper starts it is only about 27". When first purchased it was described as a 49 gallon capacity firebox (231 cu.in per gallon x 49 gal.= 11319 cu.in divide by 1728 cu. in. per cu.ft=6.55 cu.ft. primary combustion chamber) so that averages out to be about 31.7 inches for depth. One further question on the 16 ga firebox on the LPH...Since the standard for boilers is 1/4' boiler plate is the LPH a non pressurized or atmospheric pressure boiler then?
  10. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    If it's true that 16 ga. steel improves heat transfer from the firebox into the water jacket, why do you use the same 16 ga. steel for the pressure vessel? Seems to me it would transfer heat more quickly from the water into the boiler insulation and the boiler room which the opposite of what you should be trying to do.
  11. steam man

    steam man Minister of Fire

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    Cheap Wood Heat-the one main problem I see with your math excercise is that you assume the firebox is 100% filled with wood (and no space for air?)! Please correct me if I am wrong if you're talking "useable firebox" dimensions! However, if I am correct I would think on average the firebox would probably be no more than 1/2 filled! If that's the case then you would have to cut the burn times or outputs in half based on that alone! I am also skeptical of the claim about the efficiency! You state you can do 50,000btu/hr up to 500,000 btu/hr! This is like a 10:1 turndown ratio in which I believe the best modulating NG boilers on the market don't do with their sophisticated controls! And you do it with a basic damper control based on boiler temp alone! With all your claims about thinner steel and heat transfer you do realize that using antifreeze also cuts down on heat transfer? I didn't see any math numbers accounting for that! Let's get to the point: you need to show us some real life test results performed preferably an independent third party agency! Do you have that? I also haven't seen mention of stack temperatures! They must be remarkably low! If your boiler does what you say then more Lilpower to you!

    Mike

    That punctuation disease is contagious! That's what I get for posting on this thread!
  12. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

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    All I want is some stinking referances.
    That'll be my independent study.
  13. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Eric Johnson
    Hi I will start with you as it is short and simple!!
    Reason
    #1 less espensive
    #2 small surface area compared to large water capacity units so such a minimal thing to begin with
    #3 boiler sits outside no boiler room needed
    #4insulation is used to keep heat in water jacket so why use 4 times the steel instead of insulating properly?
    AND JUST REMEMBER I NEVER SAID I HAVE BUILT THE PERFECT FURNACE JUST A VERY COST EFFECTIVE ONE!
  14. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    Actually, you're trying to have it both ways. You offer an inexpensive boiler but make unrealistic efficiency claims. It can't be both cheaper and more efficient than anything else on the market.
  15. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    OK STEAM MAN THIS IS FOR YOU!
    #1 THE FIRE BOX IS ALWAYS FILLED 100% WHEN FILLING CAN'T SEEM TO SEE WHY YOU WOULD LOAD A FURNACE ONLY HALF FULL DIDN'T YOUR DADDY TEACH YOU TO DO THE JOB RIGHT?
    #2THE FURNACE WILL DO 500,000 BTU'S THIS IS THE AAMOUNT YOU CAN DRAW OFF IT STEADY IF YOU DRAW LESS THE FURNACE JUST STAYS IN THE IDLE MODE LONGER!
    #3 I DID GIVE MAX STACK TEMP ON 500,000 BTU DEMANDS WHICH IS WORST CASE SENARIO!
    #4 3RD PARTY TEST RESULTS, WHO HAD INDEPENDENT TEST RESULTS B4 THE EPA STEPPED IN? SO TILL OUR NEW MODEL GOES FOR EPA TESTING DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH ,AND AS FAR AS TEST RESULTS GO READ WHAT THE ODWB PEOPLE USE TO SAY AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT THIER NEW EPA UNITS #'S DON'T ADD UP BUT WHAT YOU WILL SEE IS YOU NEED TO BURN DRY WOOD TO GET THESE KIND OF RESULTS!
    #5YOUR NG BOILER IS OF NO COMPARISON AS YOU DON'T FILL IT WITH THE DAYS FUEL AND WALK AWAY AND STILL COME HOME TO A HOUSE!
    #6 YES ANTIFREEZE EXCHANGES AT A DIFFERENT RATE BUT THIS IS BOTH IN AND OUT SO IT IS SO CAMPARABLE TO WATER IF YOU STUDY IT!
  16. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    ERIC JOHNSON WHY CAN'T IT BE??
    THE FORD FOCUS CANT GET GREAT GAS MILEAGE BECAUSE ITS CHEAP??
  17. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    WHO OUT THERE HAS A BTU METER HOOKED TO THERE FURNACE??
    I DO AND I BUILT IT WITH THE HELP OF SOME VERY TOP NOTHCH ELECTRONIC PEOPLE AND PROGRAMMERS!
    THIS WILL BE AVAIABLE ON ALL OUR EPA MODELS AS WELL AS RETROFITABLE TO ALL OLD UNITS
    WE KNOW WHAT ARE FURNACE IS DOING AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOURS IS DOING??
  18. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    SDROBERTSON
    HOW CAN YOU MAKE STATEMENTS ABOUT MY FURNACE IF YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND HOW TO DRY WOOD!
    I CAN DRY WOOD IN 24 HRS TO BELOW 17% JUST NEED TO SPLIT IT DOWN TO KINDLING SIZE AND KEEP IT IN A LOW HUMIDITY HIGH TEMP AREA WITH AIR BLOWING ACCROSS IT BUT SURLEY NOT A BIG ROUND CHUNK!
    WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS PLEASE MAKE YOUR STATEMENTS AGAIN WITH A LITTLE MORE THOUGHT!
    aND AS FAR AS THE BOILER PLATE THING DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT BOILER PLATE IS??IT IS A ROLLED PIECE OF ANY TYPE OF STEEL AND THIS TERM IS AN OLD ONE FROM WHEN WAY BACK WHEN ROLLED STEEL WAS THE TYPICAL FOR STEAM BOILERS ! NO SUCH THING IN THE FLAT OR SQ. FURNACES JUST SOMTHING THE PEOPLE WHO BUILD WITH ROLLED STEEL USE !THIS IS NOT A GRADE OF STEEL! CALL US STEEL AND TRY BUY THIS AND GET THE ASTM# FOR THAT HE HE!!
  19. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    CAVE2K
    LOOKING FOR SOME ONE WHO IS TRYING TO STORE THERE HEAT IN A LARGE VOLUME OF WATER SO WHAT YOU HAVE WON'T HELP TO EXPLAIN WHY WE USE ONLY 25 GALLONS BUT THANKS FOR THE HIT!
    ALSO WE DO SIT OUTSIDE NOT IN A BUILDING!
    AS FAR AS LITER STEEL BEING MORE PRONE TO STRESS FAILER YOU ARE WRONG IT IS JUST THE OTHER WAY AROUND THICK STEEL HAS MORE STRESS AS IT CAN NOT EXPAND AND CONTRACT AS EASY AS LIGHT STEEL !
    THIS IS WHAT MADE THE ASHLEY INDOOR STOVE SUCH A GREAT LONG LASTING FURNACE!
  20. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    Because you're not Ford Motor Co.?

    The reason you can't have it both ways is because your design is inherently less efficient than all gasifiers and probably most conventional wood-fired boilers on the market today.

    I want to see a cutaway drawing of your design. You're making all these fantastic claims and not backing it up with anything that we can analyze and ask questions about.

    And please tone down the ALL CAPS. No need to shout.
  21. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    ERIC JOHNSON
    SEEMS YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH EXPERIENCE IN THIS INDUSTRY
    ALSO SEEMS LIKE MOST PEOPLE ON HERE ALREADY HAVE A UNIT AND ARE NOT LOOKING TO BUY JUST TRYING TO JUSTIFY THIER CONCOCKTED BUILD!
    IF THIS SITE IS FOR BUYERS THEN WHERE DO ALL THESE SILLY QUESTIONS COME FROM?/
    DOSEN'T LOOK LIKE YOU HAVE A BTU METER RUNNING EITHER SO HOW DO YOU CALCULATE YOU UNIT??
    YOU SEE EVERYONE WANTS TO MAKE STATEMENTS ABOUT HOW EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG BUT NO BIG ANSWERS WHY THEY ARE RIGHT ?
    SEEMS LIKE THE SAME THING AS OUR LAST ADMINISTRATION DID TO THE PEOPLE AND SEE WHERE WE ARE NOW!
    GO TO WEBSTER DICTIONARY AS SEE WHAT GASIFICATION IS ! IT IS (CONVERSION INTO GAS ) WOW SEEMS WEIRD THAT IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT D/D OR ANY OF YOU OTHER MISBELEIFS!
    THIS SITE SEEMS TO BE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT AND SPREAD SILLY THOUGHT TO THOSE LOOKING FOR GOOD UNDERSTANDING AND I HAVE YET TO SEE ANY POST THAT WOULD HAVE RELEVANCE IF I WERE LOOKING TO PURCHASE!
  22. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    ERIC JOHNSON WHO ARE YOU THEN TO MAKE CLAIMS THAT ONLY FORD CAN BUILD EFFICIENT AND CHEAP AND NO ONE ELSE CAN??
    MUST HAVE A DEGREE!
  23. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    How about that diagram, Paul?
  24. stee6043

    stee6043 Minister of Fire

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    I was actually going to buy an Englander add-on furance from The Home Depot before I found this website. So I say "absolutely" this site is for buyers.

    This thread is classic, by the way. A truley entertaining read...
  25. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

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    A few user names and numbers?
    PM me if not for publication.
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