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Lil Powerhouse Boiler?

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by Hosted, Jan 9, 2009.

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  1. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Loc:
    MN
    SO IF YOU THINK A PICTURE WILL PROVE SOMTHING YOUR PRETY SIMPLE AND SHOULD NOT BE GIVING ADVICE OUT HERE!
    HOW ABOUT COMING TO SEE ME AND WE WILL JUST WATCH THE FURNACE AND USE THE EQUIPMENT NEEDED TO TEST ANY BOILER FOR A REAL ANSWER!
    WOULD BE HAPPY TO PROVE IT TO YOU SO YOUR ANSWERS HERE WILL BE OH HELP TO BUYERS!
    sHOW ME 1 PICTURE THAT YOU HAVE THAT PROVES THE EFFICIENCY OF A FURNACE AND PICTURE AND I WILL GET YOU A PIC OF MINE BUT AS PICS ARE JUST USED FOR A SIMPLE SELLING TOOL THEY HAVE VERY LITTLE USEFULNES IN FIGUARING OUT HOW EFFECIENT IT WILL WORK! WHAT I SEE IS ALOT OF PEOPLE ASKING FOR INFO SO THEY CAN COPY THINGS !
    ALL AND LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN ALL BTU'S ARE CALCULATED BY EQUATION NOT PICTURES ! MANY OF THE PEOPLE HERE SEEM TO THINK YOU JUST MAKE THINGS UP AND IT BECOMES FACT!
    LETS BUILD A BTU AND EFFICIENCY EQUATION ON THIS SITE SO WE CAN PLUG IN SOME INFO AND SEE SOME STARTING POINTS FOR THE REAL BUYERS INSTEAD OF JUST CONFUSING THEM WITH THE BRAIN STORMS OF A FEW!
    DOES EPA ASK FOR A DIAGRAM FOR CERTIFICATION OR DO THEY USE TEST RESULTS AN EQUATION TO CONCLUDE ITS EFFICINCY AND PARTICULATES!

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  2. Ugly

    Ugly New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
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    77
    Loc:
    Central Ontario Canada
    I'm looking to replace two existing units with out of the box solutions at the large store we have. I'm shopping. The one Empyre at the large building is fine for the moment, but it's a bit of a beast and can eat a full cord a day in the cold weather. I'm also going to build one. Basically I'm a buyer - One who does his research - because burning wood is a science, not an art.
  3. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
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    Loc:
    MN
    Hey Ugly
    would love to discuss this with you but may be easiest if you call me so I can get your specifics so I give you real answers!
    320-632-5254
  4. steam man

    steam man Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2008
    Messages:
    652
    Loc:
    Northern Maine
    Cheap Wood Heat-I really appreciate your tenacity in defending your position. That's OK, stay tough. As a manufacturer of OWB you surely must be aware of the problems associated with them and why they are being regulated. You, as a manufacturer, are obligated to show why your boiler does what it does to meet expectations and regulated emissions. I find it hard to believe your current boiler is as great as you say but yet you have to manufacture a new model to meet new EPA guidelines. It would seem your current one would be just fine. That makes me question your claims. I have been involved with boilers for almost 4 decades if you count I helped my dad install his wood boiler in 1972. He had a solid fuel license and was responsible for pioneering the effort to install many wood boilers in my hometown and believe me, I learned enough to make industrial boilers my life long career. I like this forum because I learn something new all the time and help contribute when I can. Treat this forum like a peer review and not basic consumers. There is a lot of high level expertise here and your up against a tough crowd. If this helps you I posted below how boiler efficiency is MEASURED and calculated. This is a must to do before any claims can be made.

    measure air flow through firebox.
    measure air temp in & out
    measure water temp in & out
    measure water flow
    calculate btu’s to raise air temp
    calculate btu’s output to water
    air BTU + water flow BTU = total BTU’s
    water flow BTU’s divided by total BTU’s = efficiency
    Temperature drop x GPM x 8.33 x 60 = BTU/hour

    Mike
  5. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

    Joined:
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    Central NYS
    I'm getting pretty sick of being insulted by you, Paul, every time we try to get close to what actually makes your boiler work and why it's supposedly superior to everything else on the market. Now I have to travel out to Minnesota to see it firsthand if I want any useful information. You refuse to supply references, drawings--anything useful. Just a lot of blah, blah, blah, nonsense that only you understand.

    Apparently everybody is an idiot but you. Good luck with that sales approach, pal.
  6. Sting

    Sting Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
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    Loc:
    Wisconsin
    Its a calling to be the whipping boy in these "discovery" threads

    Thank-you Eric for the sacrifice of time and endurance it takes to pull for the answers

    Great read

    Kind Regards
    Sting
  7. sparke

    sparke Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    565
    Loc:
    Maine
    This certainly is an entertaining read. BUT we are not getting anywhere. Paul obviously believes in his product and that is fine. BUT the dialog is going to get nasty soon.
    Can we all take a breath and start over?

    Paul are you here to convince us of your products efficiency? If so we to figure out a way to communicate so this conversation can get more civilized!!
  8. sdrobertson

    sdrobertson Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    Loc:
    West Michigan

    Ok, Ok, I've read the whole post again along with your facts page from your website...You win as I don't know what I'm talking about-could you let me know of a unit installed in Western Michigan so I could look at it and then maybe recommend it to all of my friends? Even a video like was suggested earlier would help educate myself so I don't make a mistake on what I would recommend in a solid fuel boiler to several of my closest friends who are looking into wood heat.
  9. Duetech

    Duetech Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    1,436
    Loc:
    S/W MI
    Hi Paul,
    Storage is in the planning stages here. My EKO cannot do the thermal swing that you are saying the LPH can. From what I have gathered from those that have storage there is always an extended burn needed to get storage up to par. What time frame are we talking to get 1200 gallons of water from 100*f to 180*f with the LPH when there is no other heat load involved? If I am understanding your description of the heating process for the LPH then basically the LPH is a 500k btu output boiler that is only limited by the heat demand and the controls on the boiler?
  10. stee6043

    stee6043 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
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    2,298
    Loc:
    West Michigan
    SD, if you get a lead on a West Mich install I will offer to go along. I'll bring the camera....
  11. sdrobertson

    sdrobertson Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Loc:
    West Michigan
    Picture of unit burning off Ebay. Now we can see the door and the exhaust out the side of the unit.

    Attached Files:

  12. Fred61

    Fred61 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    1,713
    Loc:
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    Hey Cheap,

    I think the posting page has spell-check!!
  13. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

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    Loc:
    Rochester,ny
    I did get a PM that I had referances coming this afternoon.
  14. Duetech

    Duetech Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    Loc:
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    Just in case anyone is wondering about the 4" chimney??? With forced draft 4" is large enough to run an EKO40 and is actually .18 times larger. Standard thermal draft is another thing. But the 4" is viable with forced draft.
  15. brad068

    brad068 Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    440
    Loc:
    Central Wisconsin
    Guys I had to chime back in. This is just too good to sit idle

    Paul you are a piece of work. I think in your mind you could sell ice to an Eskimo.

    Paul, by the looks of the pic above and the importance of the 16 ga steel, I'm wondering why didn't you just go and pick up old used refrigerators and turn them into your boilers? Seems to me that would save you alot of work. 16 ga, your right it probably won't stress crack because it will warp up like an old ash pan!

    Paul, my boiler has 1300 gals of stored water. It has a 3/4 hp 3450 motor which runs the blower wheel to create the induce draft. It moves 350 to 400cfms and combustion air is anywhere from -40*F to 100*F. The exhaust runs anywhere for 200* to 260*F throughout the burn which is usually 3 hrs.

    The best temp rise I ever got is 50*F/hr. 120 to 170. Forget about the air btu, forget about the gpms,(circs are off) and the calc. btu per hour in my unit is???????.....

    And this was a load of about 100 lbs of oak. Remember the total burn was 3hrs and my best hr rise was 50*F


    PAUL, THE REASON US FOLKS USE STORAGE IS THE FACT THAT THE COMBUSTION IS SO MUCH MORE EFFICIENT!!!!

    ok, I'm done shouting. Did you ever have a science teacher show you an experiment with burning wood?

    The teacher first tries to light a 2x4. Then tries wood chips. Then tries sawdust. What do you thinks happens when the teacher, (using the same ignitor for all three) lights the sawdust?

    My point is, is that when you burn fuel in smaller "chunks" is that you can use the cycling method more. When you are burning large chunks of wood (12" piece of oak 2' long split 4 ways) once you get it burning the best and most fuel efficient way to combust that piece is to let it burn all full out. By doing this you keep the combustion in very high temps which inturn fully combusts all the available gases.
    Which brings me to the absolute necessity of refractory in a secondary chamber. The refractories benefit is to keep the combustion air in an extremely high temp environment which can only take place if the hot gases are separated from the water jacket which will quench the gases if they come in contact. Thats why owb are infamous for the thick slimey creosote sticking to the firebox walls.
    Paul, have you ever tried to torch through a piece of well pipe with water on the backside? Or try to solder a joint with water in it? Same principle as a owb without refractory or a refractory lined secondary chamber.

    Oh, my calculated btu/hr for a 50*F rise is 542K dumped into storage.
  16. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

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    Rochester,ny

    Yeah- take that *******. I checked your references and cannot believe you would give me those. Lucky for you there are suckers born every minute.
    I get these really stupid phone calls everyday warning me it's my last chance to get another warranty for my car, or to federally refinance my house. They never stop. It tells me that there's lots of easy fish to catch.
    Can we end this thread?
    The joke is on us.
  17. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    Central NYS
    Calm down, Kenny.

    What did you find?
  18. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Messages:
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    Loc:
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    Hey garnification
    I have $1000.00 that says you can not warp my 16 ga firebox when operated properly!!
    I do say your #s are very possible but as the oak you fired with only had about 692.857 btu's so not sure how the burn took 3 hrs! #'s come from utah state forestry extension
    29.1 million btus per cord with a weight of 4200#s per cord
    burn 100#s 4200 devided by 100#s = 42 loads per cord
    29.1 million btus devided by 42 = 692,857 btus per load
    took 500,000 off in 1 hr and only 192857 for other 2 hrs and at a air volume of 350 to 400 cfms seems we did a lot of cooling in the other 2 hrs !!
    I did give this 100% efficiency for these #'s as well as 100% dry wood as is stated in utah specs !
    Now this is just my calculations not any facts but maybe you can tell me more of the burn process other wise I see alot of excess air !
    I do not say you are wrong I do not say what you have is junk I say we can all figuar the equation if we talk about it!
    I'm not here to put anyone elses product down just to tell you what I can achieve!
    Now we do split our wood smaller so that it will cure faster , the size you suggest I would say more than 1 year in most area's to cure!
    you did not give moister content so I take it to be 17% moisture wood !
    The owb has slimy creasote on the walls because they burn high moisture wood burn dry wood it will go away!!
    Most owb are not well suited to burn dry wood as they run to high of a heat load and would charcoal up and ash over and smother the coal bed out! Not all of coarse but most!
    Now if you feel i'm off base tell me why !
    Happy to talk and thanks for keeping it real!
  19. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Loc:
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    Fred61
    I hear what you say but can't seem to find it will you guide me to it!
    Thanks
  20. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

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    Messages:
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    Loc:
    MN
    Hey Kenny chaos
    Yep so I worked in shop all day just back in to respond and do some office work we are a small company and I do Sales ,buying ,r&d;testing ,ect.ect.
    Can't just sit here all day on computer! Said I would get you refs yet today but now you slam me and make false statements because I have not gotten this to you yet !
    You asked for someone in your area and I need the time to search data base for someone who is ok with me giving out the phone#
    A couple years ago I gave out a customers # and within 6 months he had so many calls from his # being passed around he had to change his # as his phone rang night and day and it was his personal# with many family members in house so I always verify with customer and get permission b4 sending out if you were my customer I think you would ask I did the same for you!
    Now if I just paid you who cares but then you would say whatever I asked because you were making money! my customers spent thier money and now own a furnace and life is good give them 25 calls every evening about it and seems it's no longer such a good deal!!
  21. Fred61

    Fred61 Minister of Fire

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    Just below the box you are typing in there is a row that says "Check Spelling." Click that.
  22. Cheap wood heat

    Cheap wood heat New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
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    Loc:
    MN
    Thanks for the reply fred but it's not on my page
    Just the submit post link
    As you can see I sure could use it! But have search and can't seem to find it .
    Maybe in the way I log in? Help from anyone would be great!
    Thanks again Fred
  23. Sting

    Sting Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
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    You have to use the POST REPLY tab not the Fast Reply

    Drill on Please! :)
  24. leaddog

    leaddog Minister of Fire

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    Loc:
    Hesperia, Michigan
    I'm not sure I want to jump in here but I just don't under stand a couple of things.
    If you are reaching 2000* in your burn chamber and your exaust is out the side you must be transfering the heat to the water in the burn chamber. If that is right then what keeps the walls from cooling down the fire down. That is what almost all the OWB do and that is why they can't keep the fire hot enough to burn up all the gasses. And if there isn't any other path for the exaust except from the burn chamber if you have a stack temp under 400* then the temp of the exaust leaving the burn chamber must be 400* and that means you aren't high enough to get full burn. Now if your temp leaving the burn chamber is 2000* then your exaust will be close to that. You won't get any build up but you will make rain from that snow falling right above the stack thats for sure. It sure would be interesting to watch flies fly over that stack.
    By the way just for info here for someone that didn't relize, 16 guage is .0508 which is less than 1/16 thick. Be very carefull how you put wood in. If you ring the bell it might be a splashing sound. I always wondered what 500,000btu would do at 2000* to 1/16in steel. Better be sure and not have a pump fail or the power go out. I think that 500,000btus would boil out that little bit of water in a hurry and gobs of red hot 16ga steel wouldn't be a pretty pic that's for sure.
    I have heard of people over heating eko's enough to slightly warp the return fitting but I'm not sure if any thing would be left with a pump failure here.
    Just my take
    leaddog
  25. kenny chaos

    kenny chaos Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    I found that by playing the "good cop" card and prevaricating to be truly interested in Paul's product,
    I was repeatedly ignored for the most basic of questions.
    Following too numerous requests, a false attempt was finally made to pacify me, "I'll get it to you this afternoon."
    Read for yourselves, when drawn out on this put-off, Paul's excuse was that he was too busy.
    Techies have determined a less than efficient boiler.
    HR has determined less than efficient business accumen.
    I believe we have answered the OP's question.
    This was a fun ride but now it's time to move on.
    Ken
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