Liner Design - ANY HELP FOR A NOOB?

[mnowaczyk]

QUESTIONS:

1) Can I install a custom block off plate at bottom of a 8" round liner, but not get it all the way to the damper... just a few inches above damper where I can reach it through the damper frame? I'd most likelye use another 8" oval liner with another block off plate at the damper coming from the stove. This area is masonry and would be like an unlined "bubble" at the smoke shelf of my otherwise totally lined chimney, sort of like a snake that just had a big meal. (See below for an ASCII "diagram" of the existing no liner / 13" clay liner setup.)

2) If the above is a bad idea, are there better ideas out there?

Background
I'm a DIY guy, and don't agree with my sweep's idea of destroying my 5" deep damper to get the chimney lined. Am I wrong? Please let me know what you think.

I don't want to tear my house or even my existing damper apart. I have seen videos on BobVilla.com, but he whole house is torn apart... (sure better than burning down though). I don't think it's worth the effort, mess, or damage to my mostly original 80 year old historic home.

I have some questions below ... after you understand my chimney setup...

My ~40 foot high chimney is shaped like this:
-------------------------------------

Stainless cap

| 13"|
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
\ \ | Angled brick section below clay narrows at top – too small for 8” oval
\ \ | So can’t get 8” oval to bottom from top, or up to clay from bottom
\ \ |___
\ \ |
---- --------| 5 inch deep cast damper opening (I don’t remove frame, just damper)
/ --------| Lentil attached to damper appears to support mantle brick
/
/
| Fireplace with insert on 80 year old tile floor with ash pit below.
|_____________


More info / background:
My stove requires 8", and I'd like to install 8" Stainless. I'm not opposed to using rigid for the top section, and wonder if it might be easier because I could assemble sections at top as opposed to trying to straighten out flex while dropping it down.

I want to use a top boot with an 8" oval output. I've had 8" oval through my damper and it's a nice tight squeeze. I had to cut the 4-5 foot section because the (~foot wide) sides were hitting the brick on that slanted up toward the straight clay liner. (That was some good experience before purchasing the materials.)

Any thoughts or ideas?

 

[mnowaczyk]

I had an idea of getting the 8" round "pre-bent" into almost the 8" oval shape, and trying to complete the bend by hand to get it through the damper and into the 8" oval stoptop adapter. If the piece I drop form the top is only maybe 10" wide at the widest, I'm sure I could get it through the whole flue. I'd just need to flatten it out a little more to complete the pass through the damper.

Is there flex duct that is flexible enough to do this? Thoughts?

Maybe not use the same material for the whole thing? Maybe attach a more flexible material to the bottom, and have very rigid stuff for the entire top, straight portion?

 

[mnowaczyk]

I had an installer, chimney sweep come by, the guy who usually does the drops from the top (not the guy that handles the metal work at the bottom) and he agreed that in this old house we don't want to rip out the damper frame.

He said my setup is pretty good right now, and that I'm fretting too much over the idea of a chimney fire. It was pouring rain that day, and he said there's no reason for a full sweep, just shop vac the fireplace before putting the insert back in. He recommended cleaning the smoke shelf well, but said it wasn't necessary right then. Surprised he approved of my slammer installation, which I thought was a major faux pas.

His thought was similar to mine, but would most likely get a 8" round liner, and bend it part of the way to the oval shape before dropping it, then hopefully complete the bend at the bottom. However, he wanted to talk to the guy that does the metal work at the bottom before agreeing to the installation.

Does this all sound right? I guess we'll see when he comes back with the metal-worker.

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

why not cut the damper section and backplate to give yourself some room to work?
do you want to use it as an open fireplace ever again?????

 

[mnowaczyk]

why not cut the damper section and backplate to give yourself some room to work?
do you want to use it as an open fireplace ever again?????

I do certainly like the idea of being able to use it as an open fireplace again. I took the stove out for the summer last year, and used the open fireplace a few times this fall. Now that I've really got the stove going, I'm not sure I'll take it out again this summer, but I am fortunate that the stove I have is relatively easy to move with a hand truck.

I'm definitely thinking about resale value of my house too. (As a home shopper, just a little over a year ago, I preferred an open fireplace to a wood stove.)

I'm also a bit of a "restorer" at heart, clinging to the original style and detail of older homes. I hate to be the guy to destroy any old charm. So if anything can be done without destroying anything 80 years old, I try.

 

[Hogwildz]

Just run round down, and get an adapter & run the rest of the way through the damper with oval. Done deal.
I'm a lil confused as to what you wanna do. Sounds like you wanna run a liner ot the smoke shelf, then end it there and block off plate, the leave a gap. then another block off plate with liner from that to the stove.
Basically leaving a space between both block off plates with no liner? If thats the case, I would not think of doing that myself. Line it all the way from top to the stove, then install 1 block off plate anywheres below the old damper.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Just run round down, and get an adapter & run the rest of the way through the damper with oval. Done deal.
I'm a lil confused as to what you wanna do. Sounds like you wanna run a liner ot the smoke shelf, then end it there and block off plate, the leave a gap. then another block off plate with liner from that to the stove.
Basically leaving a space between both block off plates with no liner? If thats the case, I would not think of doing that myself. Line it all the way from top to the stove, then install 1 block off plate anywheres below the old damper.

I really want to line it the whole way. The problem is getting round up from the damper without cutting it out. Or getting oval down from the top. There's a section at the top of the smoke chamber that is too narrow to fit 8" oval through (big enough for 8 round though). That section makes it impossible to drop the oval-to-round adapter down from the top, and the damper (only 5" deep) makes it impossible to get the round section of the oval-to-round adapter up from the bottom.

The sweep that last cmae by thinks that MAYBE, they can bend a section of round almost all the way to oval... but not quite, so it coudl fit through the smoke chamber, down to the damper. Then the bend into the oval shape would neeed to be completed from the bottom, by reaching hands and tools up through the damper frame.

Is any of this making sense?

I don't want to rip out the damper frame. Who knows what the future will hold. I'm burning now without a ss liner (13x13 clay only), and I am considering learning how to clean the chimney myself on a regular basis instead of lining it. It's so darn easy to go back to an open fireplace this way, but I know I'd have a much safer install that would likely draft better if I had a SS liner. It is what the insert recommends too.

 

[G-rott]

Can you cut out the whole damper assembly in a way you could replace it later if you wanted to? I don't think you will, but the option would be nice.

Garett

 

[mnowaczyk]

Can you cut out the whole damper assembly in a way you could replace it later if you wanted to? I don't think you will, but the option would be nice.

Garett

Nope. The fireplace was actually built around the damper frame. It's nice that I can pop the cast iron damper flap right out, and store it in the garage, but the frame's not going anywhere without significant masonry work.

What if I was to get the round down to the damper, put the oval up through the damper, and just get some galvanized sheet metal that I roll up and stuff up there to connect the round to the oval. It would be a point of constricted air flow, and maybe be a place for creosote and ash to collect, but at least a "postive" connection. I would think that the oval could easily be pulled down, and then the sheet metal could be pulled out when needed. Maybe this could be a backup plan if the round turns out to be too stiff to bend through the damper.

 

[G-rott]

DelBurner,

If I'm getting this right the Steel Frame is also the support for the masonry. If it has a lip or a ledge that can be cut away to make you more space great. A "good" welder with a mobile rig could do it an a way that a repair could be made to get the fireplace back in working order. A guy from the fire place shop, maybe maybe not on the cut out.

If this is not an option but you can get ovalized pipe or flex liner in there you could make it work, can you get a short oval section and a pair of round to oval adapters? May be send one adapter down from the top and only have to make one connection above the damper?

I'm not bad with sheet metal, but working in a tight space and trying t make an air tight connection sounds like a major PITA. I'd worry that if I did get it sealed up at first, I might destroy the fir the first time I cleaned the chimney or worse yet I'd put off cleaning because I knew how big a pain it is to work with that connection.

Keep us posted,

Garett

Edit - Sorry, just looked back at the original post. No getting the oval down from the top. might just have to work everything from the bottom.

Edit p.s. finding a welder of sweep that doesn't feel the need to "destroy" the existing fireplace or chimney is the way I would go. Modify yes-Destroy NO.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Yeah. I agree G-rott.

I was starting to think about weather rigid / sheet metal duct might be more plyable than flex duct... and considering trying to use rigid to make the round-to-oval adapt... but then I remembered working with 6" HVAC duct, and realizing that couldn't be bent much without breaking the seam. So if that's not plyable, then I guess i can forget about rigid SS being plyable.

It seems like finding a sweep that will be willing to try the install without really messing up the damper is the way to go. Thanks!