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Liner Preferance: SS Rigid + Insul OR SS Double wall?? Cost is the same...

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by zzr7ky, Aug 18, 2006.

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  1. zzr7ky

    zzr7ky Minister of Fire

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    Hi -

    I'm lining a 16' straight chimney. It is in pristine condition, 10"x10" ID tile, ~2" air gap all around tile. The stove is a VC Resolute Acclaim. It will be installed on the hearth in front of the existing fireplace. Permit is pulled.

    At TSC I can get Simpson DuraTech SS double wall HT2100 for the same cost (3'=$70) as 316L Rigid liner including insulation.

    Flex is a little less..

    So the question for the board is FLEX+ Insulation, SS Rigid + Insulation, OR SS Double wall?

    I have no experience to guide me. I'll have scafolding up from the chimney brick work so it is an easy install.

    What would you do? What issues should I be looking at?

    I'm building my scaffolding from timber on the site this weekend. Scaffolding will then become fuel once project is completed. Cost a box of 6" lag bolts.

    THANKS!!

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  2. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    I'd go with the SS Double wall that way you don't have to mess with the insulation.
  3. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    This has come up before, can any one verify that double wall will sweat and condensate between the layers in a inclosed space? or is this a old wives tale.
  4. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    I would not use standard class A chimney for a number of reasons...weight, condensation on outerwall, fastening method, etc.

    Dura makes a pre-insulated liner that is specifically for this situation.
    http://www.duravent.com/catalogs/dliner/L405about.htm
    DuraLiner Rigid.....

    Also, if burning wood, 304 such as Heat-Fab or Elmers is MORE than good enough.....in rigid. If you go with thin flex, then maybe 316 might help a little....but keep in mind that virtually ALL insulated chimneys from 1970 to even today used either 400 series or 304 (an upgrade from 400 for most cases).

    Only reason for 316 would be coal, oil or the attack of certain natural and LP gases.

    So, all else being equal, I would say the dura liner, or Heat-Fab (or equiv) rigid 24 ga. 304.

    Keep in mind the the inner wall of most Class A chimneys is (or at least used to be) thinner than 24 ga.
  5. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

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    Did you make sure it can fit? I have no experience with a 10" x 10" or know what ID tile is, my fireplace is 60's with a 8"x (12" or 13") and they fought like crazy to get a 6" round liner down it. I'd think, a 10" x 10" even with mortar sticking out between the joints can fit 6" double wall stainless but, something to verify. Wear gloves! Stainless has razor sharp edges, and if you have someone below trying to guide DO NOT let them grab the bottom while you jam it from above. As mentioned, it's razor sharp and jamming it on one of their fingers, will be ugly. In your case, the liner will probably be loose and you'll need to worry about the person above accidentally slipping and having the liner fall down the flue. Hopefully the person below won't have their hands, fingers, or arms in the way. So, make sure the person below is fully aware that they have to get the hell out of there if something goes wrong and watch their extremeties.

    Does the fireplace have a damper? Mine did, and you should cut an opening in it, the dampers are almost always too small to fit pipe so you'll either have to get a piece of flex for the last portion and ovalize it to fit through or cut the fireplace damper so you don't have to ovalize. It's better to not have to ovalize the pipe and cut an opening IMHO.

    Get a chimney screen, don't go cheap and get the rain cap. In the past year with only a rain cap I've had a couple animals fall down, and then they try to scratch or eat their way out. They get trapped in the area of my unit that's above the secondary burn. I light a fire and burn them alive... not something I enjoy.
  6. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    I would agree with this statement.....

    Certainly, an enclosed space is OK, but enclosed within the moist masonry space created by the chimney is not - IMHO.

    I doubt that the UL test checked for this type of environment (metal? enlighten us).
    UL probably does some salt spray tests, but real world I'd want my class A insulated able to breathe.

    Years ago there were many problems from salt (chorides) in the pipe insulation, but that seems to have been solved.

    Back to the flex for a minute - a number of sweeps have told me about failures of thin flex within 5-10 years, especially with oil and also sometimes with wood. If longevity is an issue and flex was needed, I'd do some research. Right away I would consider Ventinox due to it's European origins and design. Copperfields "good stuff" is probably ok because they DID have a lot of earlier chemistry problems and I would assume they have addressed them.

    I'm not saying other brands are not good - just that some research on thickness, material and seam type should be done. Warranty means nothing since they don't cover labor....the biggest part.
  7. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    Oops I didn't notice he said Duratech. I thought he was talking about the double wall liner that Duravent makes. That being the case go with the ridgid insulated stuff.
  8. seaken

    seaken Minister of Fire

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    First of all I don't know how "TSC" (Tractor Supply?) can sell you a 36" peice of Duratech Type HT for about $70. Damaged goods? Close-out? At any rate, the Type HT SS Chimney pipe is out. It was not designed for this use and it will ultimately end up raising your overall cost when you have to go back in a redo everything. I wonder if TSC has a chimney professional on staff to explain the different types of pipe and how they should be used. Probably not.

    I'm not sure what 316L is referring to. Is this pipe pre-insulated or is the insulation added on at time of installation? I would suggest that you do not need 316 SS at all so it may not be the best choice either.

    The flex could be anything. What is the guage? If it is .005" forget it. If it is .006" and is strong you may okay. Most pre-boxed stuff is also 316 (316ti is common). Again, the 316 type of SS is overkill for an Acclaim.

    I would use Homesaver Flex 304 (NOT Homesaver Pro, or worse yet, Homesaver Ultra-pro, but the good stuff, heavy weight heavy duty last the life of your house stuff.) with an insulation wrap. But it is harder to install and may be best done by a pro. As a second choice I would use DuraLiner pre-insulated rigid. It will be easier to install. Heat-fab rigid with insulation sections that are installed at the time of installation is also a good choice, but again, harder to install. The rigid will need to be supplemented with some flex at the bottom 4 or 5 feet. Each brand will have an adapter and some compatible flex and insulation. Duraliner makes this easiest.

    You mentioned an 2" space around the liner. Does this chimney also have the prescribed air space around the entire masonry structure? If properly air-spaced to combustibles and entirely inside the dwelling (with the exception of the portion that goes through the roof, of course) you may not need insulation at all. If you use spacers around the liner the insulation will probably not be needed. Of course, check with local codes.

    Sean
  9. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    Our local TSC store has the same 3' Stainless steel pipe for the $68. Box store has it for $65. and other farm store is $69. Matal Fab . Stainless steel. "Stove shop" sells 4' stainless steel double wall pipe fopr $129 ! and the 3' for $97.
  10. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    Wow thats some serious dicounts! sugg list for metal fab is 123.66 simpsom 140.35. Almost makes you wonder how there selling that pipe well below cost. Get it while you can!
  11. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    But Roo ya have to understand. The pipe from the stove shop is safer.

    "We just gotta get your mind right Luke."
  12. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    There is a difference between brands of pipe. Metal fab is industry known for being the value line. Simpson duravent, along with ICC and some others are known as a premimum line. Stove shops and discount stores both carry them, and i would expect a discount store to be cheaper. I dont expect it to be half price, but whatever. If a customer wants to buy there pipe at the box and install it him/herself, thats fine. If they want to come in here, let me design them a system, take a hour of my time, and go to the box and have some kid pull the parts of the shelf and buy it, thats not so fine. I dont sale pipe at retail, but i shure as heck dont sell it for below my cost.
  13. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    He(( , I didnt know #1 metal fab was a discount pipe ? #2 that the sugg retail price was that high . This has been the price here local for the last 3-4 years on Stainless steel pipe . When i installed my full stainless steel pipe set up in my shop i bought it in the spring and the 3’ ss pipe was on clearance for $20. each section . ( i bought 3 ) the "install kit" with the roof boot / ceiling square boot / attic boot / chinmey cap was $42. and the single heavy wall black pipe was $6. each ( bought 2 ) So it cost $114. to install the full chimney pipe in the shop. This was 2 years before i bought the stove and pipe for the house. good input everybody in prices . I had no idea .
  14. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    When i did our house it was October so i paid what i thought was a feww dollars lees than full retail for every thing Metal Fab . ( $65. for 3' pipe x 6 - $99. for the ceiling ,roof , attic boot / chimney cap kit - $79 for 3' <extends to 5.5'> double wall stainless steel black pipe )
  15. MountainStoveGuy

    MountainStoveGuy New Member

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    Thats what i say!! if i were a homeowner, and was a member of this forum, i would be buying my 'fab from the box! Those prices are incredible!
  16. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    The plumbing supply down the road from our old shop sold insulated chimney at 40% off to anyone who walked into the door. This is quite typical for a "wholesale" supply house. The big boxes can easily seel at 50% off and still make 20-25% or more....they are buying truckloads and get the best prices and terms.

    When I had a shop, we bought chimney at truckload prices and discounted it to the customer also....not 40%, but anywhere from 10 to as much as 25% depending on the situation. In retail, NOTHING is sacred - list price means little. As a retailer, my concern was to make the proper margin to support my store and employees. If I was able to buy at a lower price, I then sold at a lower price.

    Just as with the liner that we saw for prices from $300 to $1000 (for material without insulation).....the difference is not always in the product, but in the distribution method of the manufacturer, etc.------------- These days the cat is already out of the bag. Some hearth wholesalers will sell to anyone who makes up a business name! Nothing required except an application, none of which are turned down.

    This means retailers have to be even smarter than before if they want a piece of the DIY market......I always wanted ALL the markets......as they say, there is a butt for every seat.
  17. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    I think Craig hit the nail on the head. I found a little infor on TSC stores and when i was at my local TSC store they have 1 truck load of stainless steel pipe being delivered. now i dont know if there were more than 1 truck load being delivered all season to the 1 store but just the very basic math of TSC . 1 truck load of stainless steel pipe X 550 stores i would say that gives them some buying power. A lot of buying power. I'm sure the numbers for the big box stores are well over the TSC store example . Here is the small info on TSC per there web site : Tractor Supply Company is the largest retail farm and ranch store chain in the United States. The company operates more than 550 retail stores in 34 states, employs more than 7,800 team members and is headquartered in Brentwood, Tenn. Its stock is traded on the NASDAQ exchange under the symbol “TSCO.”
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