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Liner swept & Summit is pulled out...

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Hogwildz, Aug 30, 2013.

  1. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    Harman has a great looking wood insert ,the 300i , when it first came out i was contemplating building a fireplace, just so i would need an insert. Its the same specs as the stove i have but no top load feature of course, which i would miss.
    http://www.harmanstoves.com/en/Products/300i-Wood-Insert.aspx

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  2. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Didn't realize the old one didn't have a cast iron top (like the new one -- still not sure what it's called, Series B or Series C -- the latest online manual calls it series C and there are no online manuals with Series B last I checked).

    But now that you imply that the Series A didn't have a cast iron top like the new one, am wondering if maybe they were able to reduce the mantel clearance to 15" from 21" with the new model because of the lower heat radiation intensity with the cast iron vs. steel top (that's exposed under the mantel).

    This becomes an issue for me since I am planning on modifying my mantel and surround and would like to use wood (prob. poplar painted) , so this past winter I was taking temps above the insert to get an idea what should be safe. At 15" IIRC, I wasn't seeing temps over 100 F when it was fully cranked.

    Still it is confusing since the manual shipped with my insert states 21" mantel clearance even though the current online manual states 15" for what appears to be the same model as mine.
  3. Xikar

    Xikar Member

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    The series C model from what I can tell has some minor cosmetic changes that allow for the clearance changes. It looks as though they have raised up the cast iron top plate to the top of the opening where the air is circulated out of. So now, instead of the air blowing over the top of the cast iron top, it will now blow out from under it. The cast iron top will now act as a mantel shield on it;s own it seems. Other than that, I cant really tell if there are any other changes to the C vs the B. From the picture on the cover of the series C manual, it almost looks like they changed the look of the side panels that house the fans as well.
  4. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    The opening for the hot air appears much smaller and almost completely hidden now from what I can see in fig 5. on page 8. The front corners of the firebox are built up higher to support the cast iron top which sits higher and the air opening is essentially hidden by the bevel edge of the cast top.

    The photo on the front page is too dark for me to see much detail. The blower covers of course are now higher but otherwise look about the same to me. I guess this series c model has probably not even shipped yet.

    Unfortunately seems like the 21" mantel clearance is going to apply to the ones previously called series B, though I'm still curious why they are designating it something else in the manuals archived on the site. I suspect they want to make it less obvious that they went from a series B to a series C in such a short time.
  5. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    I actually did not even check the date on the one they sent. But assume it can't be that old build wise. I have not heard of a C model. And the online manual is misleading as it calls it an A with C body. And I bet it is older than the manual I received.
    They recently changed from my old style to this style. I highly doubt they changed it yet again in such short time. Would cost lots of money in pre stocked build items alone.
    The crating & manual on mine says B model.
    It did come with a free fridge magnet that says the clearances have changed and to check the new manual for those changes.
    Neither the model or the older one closes of the gap at top between the top cover and the surround. The majority of the air still blows out above the top cover.
    The cast top has a casting at the mounting bolts that does raise is slightly higher than the old non cast top. I am assuming this may be to solve the issue with the old top cover vibrating at certain temperatures and actually ringing at certain temps due the the vibration at those temps.
    Makes no sense to me that they would design it to force all the air under the top cover as this would certainly impede air flow as opposed to a straight shot out as the two models I have.
    The new clearances according to the manual I received with the insert states:
    A: with a 4" deep mantel, the clearance requirement is 26" without the mantel shield, 20" with.
    B: with a 12" deep mantel, the clearance requirement is 23-1/2"" without the mantel shield, 18" with.
    I have a feeling with the winged plate they added to the top of the ceiling shield, it slows the exhaust down &/or redirects it, and causes the top to be hotter, therefore, wider mantel clearances.

    I don't know where you guys are seeing it stating a 15" clearance for the mantel with or without a shield.
    All I can tell you is I have a brand new insert, with a new manual, and a magnet that came with it stating strictly to check the manual for new clearance requirements. Why would they ship a special warning magnet if they were reducing clearances?
    I suggest you call PE and check with them directly. This will leave no room for confusion or doubt.

    Not sure about the fan grilles, they seem bout the same to me, accept the bottoms have tabs to fit into the ash lip, and the tops & bottoms are flat across, rather than the center dipping down like the old model. The new ones are actually shorter.

    Okay, the online manual for that C body has a version code of 5055.511, and is the same version number of the A model manual I have, but the one online has some of the new insert parts and photos.
    The new manual that came with the new insert is version 5055.5112
    So I believe this is the newest manual & newest insert.

    Again, call PE to clarify.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  6. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    A model & New B model

    Attached Files:

  7. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Sorry about the confusion here. I made some assumptions that were not valid but seemed reasonable at the time that led me to state some incorrect things, the assumptions:

    1. That if the PE site is linking to various manuals for the summit insert they would at least include the manuals for the most recent versions. (not true) And since there were three manuals there (The current one which is linked to when you go to the information page about the summit, and the other 2 on the archive page), then mine had to be one of those. At first I assumed I had the current model. More recently I assumed it was the middle one. Now I realize the series B manual just isn't available on the site.

    2. First assumption was that there were only two versions, mine and the one Hogz has posted pictures and info about up until he got this new one, series b (which appears the same as mine and Xicar's). And that the latest manual (with the 15" mantel clearance) was for mine.
    Thanks to Xicar for noticing and pointing out the difference in the location of the hot air opening in the new C version. (the manual that Xicar linked to in his original message about mantel clearances in his thread about his new Summit install).

    3. So since the series b wasn't there, I concluded they just changed the name of it. I didn't look closely enough at the manuals to see the differences from mine.

    Thanks to Hogz, for pointing out my mistake with regard to the 26" mantel clearance for the series B (which is what is also stated in my manual). So now I realize that there is indeed still a series B, though the manual for it is not on the PE site (I can't find it anyway).

    And even the middle of the three manuals there, not Hogz's series A, nor the new C, nor even the one with the picture on the front which is the same as the one on the series B manual and lists the 21" mantel clearance isn't mine either.

    So it looks like a lot of the changes from Hogz's original version (like the cast iron top and ash lip) were not just made recently with the Series B but were made in years before the change to series B ebt (and any other changes).

    And I'm really disheartened to see this 26" mantel clearance, which means I may not be able to use a wood mantel but will have to fabricate from something else, that's non-combustible.

    They really should be clearing this up for folks. I know that even though I might have a physical manual around for something, I rely on the ones that I can find on mfr. websites to check on things since, they are readily available without having to hunt down a paper manual. I suspect there are quite a few people who have been misled by this latest online manual (series C), PE has up, there who bought series B summits this year.

    Pretty clear to me why they would want to make these series C changes. 1. The 26" mantel clearance is awful. 2.The asthetics, negative WAF factor of that big open gap over the top of the insert.
  8. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Sounds like you're looking at the manual in the archives for the model that preceded the series B but looks like it. The C series manual is linked on the info page for the Summit insert, here --
    http://www.pacificenergy.net/pacificenergy/pdfs/SINC.BODYA-210513-24.pdf
    It's the C with an A body.


    Then why do they have a manual for it on their site, and it's the most accessible manual there right there with the info about the Summit insert and with the pictures of the Summit (BTW those pictures are of the B and do NOT match the ones in the manual) ?

    Agreed the force of the air would be cut down (since the opening appears smaller too) but apparently that was a compromise they were willing to make for appearance.

    Again, you haven't been looking at the right manual. The manual with the 15" clearance is the one with SINC in the middle of the bottom. (I don't think you can rely on the 5055.xxx numbers, they are duplicated on different manuals)

    I don't really need to. My questions have been cleared up, by what's been said here. Certainly might be interesting to find out what the status is of the new C series (if or when it's being sold and shipped). But it doesn't effect me. I have a series B model and will have to live with the 26" clearance req.
  9. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Well, the manual you linked to is def then the one I received.
    Although the pics in the manual show solid fan side panels with what looks like a slot between fan side panels & the surround side panels, and the top cover looks tight to the top surround panel in the photos.
    Yet the parts breakdown looks like the B model parts, and shows the fan side panels with the holes and has the winged narrow top place like I seen in mine, yet it is not in the manual for the B model.
    I have not clue what the hell is going on with the manuals or a "C" model. If it looks like in the pictures, I'm glad to have gotten the B model.
  10. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Aha!, That's what Xikar was talking about with the side panels. There aren't any perforations. No I don't like the solid panels. The perforations add interest (and cost,-- PE has cheaped out here and cut corners.) The manual also is full of cut corners, using old drawings and just replacing the new clearance #'s -- no wonder I assumed they had just revised the clearances for the B when I first looked at it. You really need to look closely at the few new figures in the manual where you can discern the differences like figs 1, 5, 6, 9, 10, 12.

    Looks like a real rush job on the manual, lots of discrepancies, though if you look at the front of the firebox in the parts explosion, you can see the difference in the air channel and where the cast top will be supported differently.

    Thinking more about the Series C design, looks to me, like it would perform differently than the Series B. The C would be more convective and less radiant since the entire stove top would be covered by an air jacket versus the B where the air jacket only extends to the portion of the stove top inside the fireplace and the portion of the stove top in the room is fully radiant. The C top will necessarily be cooler, so there'd be even less ability to do any cooking (if that were a concern, it's not with me)

    With the B the convective top duct exits right at the front of the fireplace and lots of heat will rise under the mantel. Whereas on the C the convective top duct exits another 7" or so into the room meaning much less of that convective heat is rising under the mantel area.
  11. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    The main concern I have with my series b Summit insert (aside from the increased clearance vs. C) is the potential for overfiring. Based on what you're saying about the changes in the heat shield and my experience this past season in noticing how quickly stove top temps could get out of hand (my IR thermom resets at over about 800F- which did happen a couple times) if I wasn't careful, so that's something that may be necessary for series B owners to watch out for.

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