hey I was reading about coal, it says no smoke, no creasote, no chimney fires??
is it true you can burn coal not have a fire?
is it true you can burn coal not have a fire?
liquid paraffin
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jtp10181
Minister of Fire
Burning wood or a LP gas log in the open fireplace will actually result in a net heat loss. You might heat up the immediate area around the fireplace but the rest of the house will probably get colder.
Mike,
I'm getting....
1. you'd like to get your place more comfortable
2. be safe
3. save some money
4. you're in the trades, and probably a pretty able DIY'er.
5. you're willing to be 'creative' to meet 1-4.
Let's do safety first.....you seem to have a problem with a direct connect, b/c some guy who wants to sell
you a $850 length of pipe tells you it isn't safe. But at the same time, you are willing to install an unmarked,
unlisted mystery stove into a rented masonry fireplace, and maybe fill it up with coal! :gulp:
Dude, I think we're all going a little too fast here. The good news is you came to the right place for advice.
As for safety....after reading this (great) site, I have concluded that to be safe, you should (1) follow the
code, which I'm sure makes sense to an electrician, and (2) 'keep an eye on it', that is, learn how to burn it
clean, keep your flue clean and inspected regularly. My guess is that 1 and 2 are equally valuable,
either one alone will keep you safe 99% of the time, and that most folks here are 'religious' about 1 AND 2,
which puts some more 9's on the safety factor.
On that point--the direct connect (properly done) is code compliant in US (but not to our friends in the north).
I don't think normal operating exhaust temps can come close to damaging terra cotta (opinions from
more knowledgeable folks?). That means, that if the tiles are intact now (?), and you kept it clean to avoid
BIG chimney fires it would likely be totally safe. Cost for a boot and ventinox 8" SS direct connect--$370 online.
A second option would be a 6" SS liner, which you can get online for $350-500 and DIY. This would be a
code violation on your 8" flue stove (reduction is a no-no). BUT, since that stove was designed for the low
draft of a slammer/direct connect (we assume), a 6" full liner might draw about the same air (opinions??).
Since you are not wed to the POS stove, you could try it out (v. carefully) with the 6" liner. IF it seemed hard
to control or to be running too hot you could ditch it, and save for a cheapo EPA stove next year, and you'd
already be good to go liner-wise.
IMHO, if this is primarily about saving $$, the return on investment for weather-stripping, shrink-wrapping
windows or other insulation is much higher than for wood heat. I'm only using the POS stove for recreation
(might burn 1/2 cord per year, and save only $100 on my oil bill) . I'm saving my money for green remodels
that will pay off better/sooner, and then I might buy a nice stove when those are done.
Oh yeah, if you want real (technical) advice from these folks, we need to know more about your chimney...
interior/exterior, height, tile size, inspected by a real sweep or not, etc.
And the stove porn guys :bug: seem to want PICTURES.
I'm getting....
1. you'd like to get your place more comfortable
2. be safe
3. save some money
4. you're in the trades, and probably a pretty able DIY'er.
5. you're willing to be 'creative' to meet 1-4.
Let's do safety first.....you seem to have a problem with a direct connect, b/c some guy who wants to sell
you a $850 length of pipe tells you it isn't safe. But at the same time, you are willing to install an unmarked,
unlisted mystery stove into a rented masonry fireplace, and maybe fill it up with coal! :gulp:
Dude, I think we're all going a little too fast here. The good news is you came to the right place for advice.
As for safety....after reading this (great) site, I have concluded that to be safe, you should (1) follow the
code, which I'm sure makes sense to an electrician, and (2) 'keep an eye on it', that is, learn how to burn it
clean, keep your flue clean and inspected regularly. My guess is that 1 and 2 are equally valuable,
either one alone will keep you safe 99% of the time, and that most folks here are 'religious' about 1 AND 2,
which puts some more 9's on the safety factor.
On that point--the direct connect (properly done) is code compliant in US (but not to our friends in the north).
I don't think normal operating exhaust temps can come close to damaging terra cotta (opinions from
more knowledgeable folks?). That means, that if the tiles are intact now (?), and you kept it clean to avoid
BIG chimney fires it would likely be totally safe. Cost for a boot and ventinox 8" SS direct connect--$370 online.
A second option would be a 6" SS liner, which you can get online for $350-500 and DIY. This would be a
code violation on your 8" flue stove (reduction is a no-no). BUT, since that stove was designed for the low
draft of a slammer/direct connect (we assume), a 6" full liner might draw about the same air (opinions??).
Since you are not wed to the POS stove, you could try it out (v. carefully) with the 6" liner. IF it seemed hard
to control or to be running too hot you could ditch it, and save for a cheapo EPA stove next year, and you'd
already be good to go liner-wise.
IMHO, if this is primarily about saving $$, the return on investment for weather-stripping, shrink-wrapping
windows or other insulation is much higher than for wood heat. I'm only using the POS stove for recreation
(might burn 1/2 cord per year, and save only $100 on my oil bill) . I'm saving my money for green remodels
that will pay off better/sooner, and then I might buy a nice stove when those are done.
Oh yeah, if you want real (technical) advice from these folks, we need to know more about your chimney...
interior/exterior, height, tile size, inspected by a real sweep or not, etc.
And the stove porn guys :bug: seem to want PICTURES.
again Thanks for all the advice
I did this backwards, I usually find a forum and do the research before I do anything but my friend ran his stove for 20 years as a slammer and never had problems, I found a great deal on a stove so I thought its a fireplace that has never been burned in it has to be ok, now that I have it in there I checked for forums and found you guys, this is a great place for info and I want to say Thanks for all the advice
Heres a question????? If coal burns clean with no creasote then shouldn't I be able to run an 8" connection from the stove to the second tile without worrying about fire in the chimney?
If I pull the stove and clean the chimney before reinstalling it with the plate and pipe and coal leaves no creasote then where is the fire danger, no creasote to burn no chance of a chimney fire????
I am only renting this place and its for sale so we could have to move by sept or sooner if someones buys it and offers to buy me out of the lease, most likely I am going to pull the stove and sell it while theres still cold wether demand for it, probably just run a line and throw a electric baseboard in. But first I'm going to find a coal burning forum to see what options are available as far as a short run of pipe goes, any info would be helpful, anybody in the jersey shore area looking for a coal/wood burner let me know,also I will probably try to sell that pile of wood
I did this backwards, I usually find a forum and do the research before I do anything but my friend ran his stove for 20 years as a slammer and never had problems, I found a great deal on a stove so I thought its a fireplace that has never been burned in it has to be ok, now that I have it in there I checked for forums and found you guys, this is a great place for info and I want to say Thanks for all the advice
Heres a question????? If coal burns clean with no creasote then shouldn't I be able to run an 8" connection from the stove to the second tile without worrying about fire in the chimney?
If I pull the stove and clean the chimney before reinstalling it with the plate and pipe and coal leaves no creasote then where is the fire danger, no creasote to burn no chance of a chimney fire????
I am only renting this place and its for sale so we could have to move by sept or sooner if someones buys it and offers to buy me out of the lease, most likely I am going to pull the stove and sell it while theres still cold wether demand for it, probably just run a line and throw a electric baseboard in. But first I'm going to find a coal burning forum to see what options are available as far as a short run of pipe goes, any info would be helpful, anybody in the jersey shore area looking for a coal/wood burner let me know,also I will probably try to sell that pile of wood
A clay chimney flue liner is the safest, most efficient product designed to carry away the byproducts of fireplaces and many gas appliances.
Why is clay the safest material for fireplace applications?
The inert nature of clay makes the final product resistant to rust and corrosion caused by the by-products of combustion in the furnace.
The smooth surface inside the clay flue liner resists creosote build-up caused by low-burning fires. However, all chimneys still need to be periodically inspected and cleaned.
Unlike metal, clay is a slow conductor of heat, further minimizing the danger of heating masonry and wood structures surrounding the lining.
HEY JUST FOUND THIS WHILE LOOKING AROUND
Why is clay the safest material for fireplace applications?
The inert nature of clay makes the final product resistant to rust and corrosion caused by the by-products of combustion in the furnace.
The smooth surface inside the clay flue liner resists creosote build-up caused by low-burning fires. However, all chimneys still need to be periodically inspected and cleaned.
Unlike metal, clay is a slow conductor of heat, further minimizing the danger of heating masonry and wood structures surrounding the lining.
HEY JUST FOUND THIS WHILE LOOKING AROUND
Mike,
Yup, there's a reason they have terra-cotta tiles in all those millions of chimneys....
Personally, I wouldn't consider 24/7 (that is, unattended) burning of wood OR coal in an
unlisted, unmarked stove in an uninspected chimney. Also, I remember reports on
this forum of non-SS stovepipe in chimneys corroding out in quite short order (due to higher
temps and moisture than what its intended for). Don't go there.
If you're moving, then you're not gonna invest in anything you have to leave behind (including
inspections)...
I think your best bet is to:
sell off/scrap the old stove,
sell the wood to someone who'll season it and burn it next year,
eat your heating bill for this season (FYI, electric heat is much more expensive than other sources,
including your current heat pump)
put together a cheap but _code_ install after you relocate, if you're still interested.
If you decide at that point you're a coal guy, then check out:
http://www.nepadigital.com/bb/index.php
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/12092/
Yup, there's a reason they have terra-cotta tiles in all those millions of chimneys....
Personally, I wouldn't consider 24/7 (that is, unattended) burning of wood OR coal in an
unlisted, unmarked stove in an uninspected chimney. Also, I remember reports on
this forum of non-SS stovepipe in chimneys corroding out in quite short order (due to higher
temps and moisture than what its intended for). Don't go there.
If you're moving, then you're not gonna invest in anything you have to leave behind (including
inspections)...
I think your best bet is to:
sell off/scrap the old stove,
sell the wood to someone who'll season it and burn it next year,
eat your heating bill for this season (FYI, electric heat is much more expensive than other sources,
including your current heat pump)
put together a cheap but _code_ install after you relocate, if you're still interested.
If you decide at that point you're a coal guy, then check out:
http://www.nepadigital.com/bb/index.php
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/12092/
woodgeek said:
yeah I'm thinking thats what I might do, i'll look for a forum on heat pumps to see if theres some way to operate them better then this one is working, its a shame because that old beast throws out some heat, I did look behind the blower and there is a door that opens and a pan for catching coal dust, just wondering how you know it for wood also
Mike,
I don't.
There was a thread here that it is generally safe to burn wood in a coal burner (provided you
accept needing to clean the flue regularly, and a possible loss of efficiency), but not coal
in a wood burner. The major advice is to shut off the 'under air' or let ashes fill up under the
grate.
The major difference wood/coal is that wood is easier to light, then burns at a lower temp,
burns up faster releasing less total heat, and has the potential to gunk your flue, esp. if you
burn cool, or in a non-EPA stove.
Most of the venting/install code for wood is more stringent than for coal not because creosote
is super dangerous like radioactive waste or something, but in an attempt to 'idiot-proof' the
system against the guy who will burn a creosote factory (wet wood/smolder) for years and never
think to get it cleaned out. The code thus requires every system be able to survive the worst
possible creosote chimney fire, that might have buckets of hardened creosote fuel.
I burn wood for green reasons, and b/c I've got a bunch of downed trees (mostly ash) in my yard
(probably 2-3 cords worth), which I can cut up for free, and which would otherwise rot. I also
don't have place to stash a couple ton of coal, nor do I feel like shoveling coal over the white
carpet in my family room!
I don't.
There was a thread here that it is generally safe to burn wood in a coal burner (provided you
accept needing to clean the flue regularly, and a possible loss of efficiency), but not coal
in a wood burner. The major advice is to shut off the 'under air' or let ashes fill up under the
grate.
The major difference wood/coal is that wood is easier to light, then burns at a lower temp,
burns up faster releasing less total heat, and has the potential to gunk your flue, esp. if you
burn cool, or in a non-EPA stove.
Most of the venting/install code for wood is more stringent than for coal not because creosote
is super dangerous like radioactive waste or something, but in an attempt to 'idiot-proof' the
system against the guy who will burn a creosote factory (wet wood/smolder) for years and never
think to get it cleaned out. The code thus requires every system be able to survive the worst
possible creosote chimney fire, that might have buckets of hardened creosote fuel.
I burn wood for green reasons, and b/c I've got a bunch of downed trees (mostly ash) in my yard
(probably 2-3 cords worth), which I can cut up for free, and which would otherwise rot. I also
don't have place to stash a couple ton of coal, nor do I feel like shoveling coal over the white
carpet in my family room!
woodgeek said:
we'll see how things turn out, Thanks for all the help, i'll let you know how I make out most likely the stove will be on the south jersey, phila craigslist and the wood also
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
Woodgeek, you've been giving excellent advice, great job for a new poster, thanks!
Mike, when you first came in, you sounded like a prime applicant for a Darwin Award, glad we've been able to advise you better...
If you had a house that you owned, I would suggest shopping some of the "big boxes" - such as Lows or Home Despot that are putting their extra stoves on clearance around this time of the year, and looking for a cheap Englander/Summer's Heat, or other such "value price" stove, and installing it with a full liner... But that doesn't sound on, unless possibly you can talk your landlord into sharing the cost on a value add for your house like this. (You should be talking to your landlord about using the fireplace in any case, many landlord policies don't want tennants burning in fireplaces or stoves, etc... I'm sure he would want you to be doing something safe in any case)
Otherwise, I'd want to get that chimney PROFESSIONALLY checked out before burning anything in it, make sure it's built to codes, and is in good condition, etc. If it is, then a direct connect of a SAFE stove might be OK, as long as it is done properly - however note that cleaning a direct connect is a real pain, as you must remove it to do so.
However you might be best off to look into some other form of heating if you are not planning to be in the house for very long.
Gooserider
Mike, when you first came in, you sounded like a prime applicant for a Darwin Award, glad we've been able to advise you better...
If you had a house that you owned, I would suggest shopping some of the "big boxes" - such as Lows or Home Despot that are putting their extra stoves on clearance around this time of the year, and looking for a cheap Englander/Summer's Heat, or other such "value price" stove, and installing it with a full liner... But that doesn't sound on, unless possibly you can talk your landlord into sharing the cost on a value add for your house like this. (You should be talking to your landlord about using the fireplace in any case, many landlord policies don't want tennants burning in fireplaces or stoves, etc... I'm sure he would want you to be doing something safe in any case)
Otherwise, I'd want to get that chimney PROFESSIONALLY checked out before burning anything in it, make sure it's built to codes, and is in good condition, etc. If it is, then a direct connect of a SAFE stove might be OK, as long as it is done properly - however note that cleaning a direct connect is a real pain, as you must remove it to do so.
However you might be best off to look into some other form of heating if you are not planning to be in the house for very long.
Gooserider
I talked to my friend who had a slammer installed in his house, he said the whole neighbor had them and as long as you got the chimney cleaned there was never a problem, he burned that way for 37 years, had the chimney cleaned every year, the only guys who had trouble were the people who didn't clean the flue. I am hearing stories of guys who haven't cleaned there flue for years with no trouble, if the chimney is clean and inspected and you burn the cleaner logs every month, where would the fire come from?
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
The only thing those cleaner logs are really good for is cleaning the excess cash out of your wallet... However you are basically correct - IF you keep your chimney cleaned on a regular basis, IF you tend to burn in a way that minimizes creosote buildup, and otherwise play the "good doobie" in regards to your maintainance, the odds of you having problems with a slammer install are pretty low.
But in practice, few people consistently do that stuff reliably and well, so there have been lots of problems due to slammer installs, including chimney and house fires, CO poisonings, etc.
The basic issue is that almost any sort of half-@$$ed install can work OK as long as everything goes right - all of todays more stringent requirements are not really there to deal with the effects of day-to-day operation, your slammer install is "good enough" for that, sort of, it may not work well, but it will work.... However if anything goes wrong, your safety margin with a slammer is slim to none - old installation techniques that used to be legal and common don't get outlawed by codes because they don't "work" but because some people that used them DIED.... Murphy is not just a funny lawmaker, he's also a deadly killer!
So how much is your life and that of your family worth to you? Are you willing to put them at risk to save a few bucks? That is what the whole situation boils down to - we will do all we can to help you get a SAFE and legal install, but we won't help you put yourself and your family at risk by telling you to do something that experience has shown to be potentially deadly.
Gooserider
But in practice, few people consistently do that stuff reliably and well, so there have been lots of problems due to slammer installs, including chimney and house fires, CO poisonings, etc.
The basic issue is that almost any sort of half-@$$ed install can work OK as long as everything goes right - all of todays more stringent requirements are not really there to deal with the effects of day-to-day operation, your slammer install is "good enough" for that, sort of, it may not work well, but it will work.... However if anything goes wrong, your safety margin with a slammer is slim to none - old installation techniques that used to be legal and common don't get outlawed by codes because they don't "work" but because some people that used them DIED.... Murphy is not just a funny lawmaker, he's also a deadly killer!
So how much is your life and that of your family worth to you? Are you willing to put them at risk to save a few bucks? That is what the whole situation boils down to - we will do all we can to help you get a SAFE and legal install, but we won't help you put yourself and your family at risk by telling you to do something that experience has shown to be potentially deadly.
Gooserider
berlin
New Member
yes, coal of any type will produce NO flamable creosote in the chimney. Since you're very close to north eastern pennsylvania where some of the best anthricite coal in the world is located at very low prices, i would HIGHLY suggest looking into a coal burning appliance. there is a coal heating website on the net, www.nepadigital.com that site is very informative and usefull for anyone looking into anthricite coal heat.
Gooserider said:
Hey Gooserider
Thanks for all the info, I understand all the code stuff and if this was my house that I was going to live in for years I would do the whole thing to code, I was just wondering how you could get a fire if you cleaned the chimney and keprt it clean, mostly likely I am going to remove the stove and sell it but I still might burn in the fireplace just to knock of the chill on the coldest nights, if I remove the stove and clean the chimney and keep an eye on it I figure it should be good for 3 more months, the landlord said it was fine to burn in the fireplace but I don't want insurance problems if something happens, as long as I'm using the fireplace the way it was designed the stove guy said I would be ok insurance wise. I'm an electrical and general contractor and if somebody came to me and asked if they could share the 30 amp breaker to run a dryer and a small cabinet range off a switched box only using one at a time would it work? I would say no way , thats totally against code you have to have each appliance on its own breaker but in reality if that hook up was in my own house and I was using it ,it would work fine so I understand the saftey feature of codes and why they come about but like you say if somebody was willing to keep the flue clean and burn nice wood most likely there would be no fire especially if the flue clay is in tact. Also how often do you guys clean your chimney, my friend only cleaned his once a year is that enough to keep a fire out. heres another question, I saw on the log cleaning site that they are approved by csia and sometimes sweeps have to use them before cleaning to get the tuff creosote off, I thought they were used that way?
berlin said:
Thanks
I found a coal burning forum and I posted some pics of my stove and it is a combo coal burner, I started out just trying to get the downstairs warm for this winter and made a few deals to do so but now I'm a little hooked on the wood thing, I look at trees and wood with a different eye now, my son goes to stockton and I pick him up once in awhile and when i drive thru the woods I'm thinking theres a couple cords of wood laying there if I had a chain saw that would be in my truck and the spliting thing is pretty cool also, I guess most of you guys are like that, It seems to be fever
Let me say THANKS to all you guys for your help, I'll post back and let you know what happened?
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
mikew said:
If you keep the chimney mechanically brushed - no "magick powders" or other chemical stuff then you should be reasonably safe - especially running as a regular fireplace since those aren't heavy creosote producers. - however they also tend not to be good heat producers, many times they may warm the immediate area, but cause a net loss for heating the house overall.
On the insurance issue, I would agree, if the landlord said it was OK to use the fireplace, and you are using it as constructed, then you shouldn't have any issues.
Sounds like you get what we are saying about code and safety - just like you can't trust a customer to safely use the electrical setup you described, we can't say you'd be OK doing the slammer...
As to the frequency of chimney cleaning, it varies, with my old smoke dragon I did it a couple times a season, could have done more. This is my first season using an EPA stove, I'm expecting that I won't need to until after burning season is over, and probably not be that bad then. - Most of the EPA stove owners here report that they clean once or twice a year at most, and don't get much crud when they do.
However the slammer era stoves were often burned in a very low fire "smolder mode" in order to get long burn-times - which was a surefire recipe for making creosote, and thus led to a rapid buildup and subsequent fires when the stove was run hot later.
On the log site - I don't know just what CSIA standards are, but I'd be willing to bet that they are more on the order of "it won't do harm" as opposed to "it really works" - ditto the case of findng a few sweeps that will reccomend them, and possibly use them (and bill accordingly) whether they are actually "needed" or not - I would put it in the same class as those adds for sugar free gum that talk about "reccomended by dentists" - or equivalent. There are people that swear by the logs, but I have never seen any evidence provided by what I would consider a reliable, unbiased source that they actually DO any real good, especially outside of special cases. Especially, they may change the nature of the creosote deposits, but they do NOT remove them the same way that a chimney brush does... Even in the "used by sweeps" case that you mention, they may have loosened the creosote with the log, but then they mechanically brushed the chimney to remove it.
Gooserider
Even in the “used by sweeps” case that you mention, they may have loosened the creosote with the log, but then they mechanically brushed the chimney to remove it.
Gooserider
The video says that you have to have your fireplace cleaned and the log is just a thing to make the creosote harmless, its supposed to chemically bind with the creostoe and cuase it to be less flamable after 14 days the bigger chunks will fail off and down to the shelf, you still have to have it machanically cleaned. I'm going to pull the stove out and see what the chimney looks like and maybe just burn in the fireplace, maybe just the wood I have left and sell the stove with the other wood as a package. The one problem I had was the screen, I was affraid sparks would fly and catch on the carpet and also when the fire goes out I have to leaave the damper open because the coals are still letting out smoke and I set off the smoke detector last time my son closed it early thiking the fire was out, maybe i'll trade the stove for a glass front screen with a screen in the opening for heat that I can close, i'm praying for a winter like we have had so far, it was 50 and close to 60 here yesterday, still the downstairs was pretty cold last night, that csia is the chimney safety institute of america ??????? heres the links and the video of the log burner
http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/home/csl/
http://www.cleanyourchimney.com/
Gooserider
The video says that you have to have your fireplace cleaned and the log is just a thing to make the creosote harmless, its supposed to chemically bind with the creostoe and cuase it to be less flamable after 14 days the bigger chunks will fail off and down to the shelf, you still have to have it machanically cleaned. I'm going to pull the stove out and see what the chimney looks like and maybe just burn in the fireplace, maybe just the wood I have left and sell the stove with the other wood as a package. The one problem I had was the screen, I was affraid sparks would fly and catch on the carpet and also when the fire goes out I have to leaave the damper open because the coals are still letting out smoke and I set off the smoke detector last time my son closed it early thiking the fire was out, maybe i'll trade the stove for a glass front screen with a screen in the opening for heat that I can close, i'm praying for a winter like we have had so far, it was 50 and close to 60 here yesterday, still the downstairs was pretty cold last night, that csia is the chimney safety institute of america ??????? heres the links and the video of the log burner
http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/home/csl/
http://www.cleanyourchimney.com/
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
I agree, the CSIA folks do have a lot of useful info on their site - including the following comment on those chemical cleaners - including the "creosote logs"..... Note that they emphasize that they should only be used in conjunction with mechanical brushing, it also does NOT say that they work, especially the "consumer products" as opposed to the presumably stronger chemicals that are used by the pros...
Gooserider
Gooserider
http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/home/csl/
Did you read the other article they did a test with a chimney sweep inspecting the flues and found no difference after any of the 4 tests and none of the people said they would buy it, so i'm not going to either
Thanks again
Did you read the other article they did a test with a chimney sweep inspecting the flues and found no difference after any of the 4 tests and none of the people said they would buy it, so i'm not going to either
Thanks again
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
Hadn't seen that one, but have seen others like it - as I said, about all they are good for is removing surplus money from your possession... Presumably the CBC testers didn't have to pay for the logs, so they failed to notice that effect...
Gooserider
Gooserider
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