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Look what I found when I tore my old fireplace out.

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by tlhfirelion, Jul 10, 2008.

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  1. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    Me thinks the clearance to combustibles is for the whole top of the stove, not just the front 1/3 or 2/3 or whatever. Basically the back 2" of the top of that stove will be just as hot as the front 2".

    Not sure of the wall structure, but would it be possible to remove the mantle and build the shallow alcove above where the mantle is currently? If the top of the current alcove is a simple header, it could probably just be raised by the distance you need.

    Edit: reviewing your pictures it looks like the "header" for your current alcove is not load bearing. If that is the case, it could simply be "raised".

    EDIT: Crap I type slow.

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  2. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    I will be forced to purchase the new ht type a pipe everyone is recomending. I will be installing this from inside the chase as there is plenty of room. I was going to use those brackets that hold the pipe away from the wall and secure it. Good plan or no?
  3. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    I did think about that but I have mere inches left of ceiling if I do that.
  4. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    Alcove from floor to ceiling maybe??
  5. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    hhmmm....interesting. I wonder how that would look?
  6. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    If I changed over to metal studs above it and used a stove mantle with durock.......no combustibles correct?
  7. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    does your intended unit have a listing for "alcove" installation?

    if not NFPA211 section 12.2.2 states "solid fuel burning appliances shall not be installed in alcoves or enclosed spaces of 512 cubic feet unless specifically listed for such use."

    section 12.2.2.1 states however "solid fuel burning appliances listed for installation in enclosed spaces or alcoves of less than 512 cubic feet shall be installed in accordance with the requirements of the listing and the manufacturer's instructions."

    here is a link for the regulation i am reading from its free to read and covers a BUNCH of the questions you are asking. im not saying "here's the reg go read it" , i am suggesting that you do look at it (heck i bookmarked it) to gain a better idea of what you have in front of you , and by all means keep coming here for help! you will find no better source of information. i build stoves for a living and i learn stuff in here practically on a daily basis.

    here's the link http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_document.asp

    just agree to terms and open it up. you cannot print it or cut and paste without buying it but unless you do this for a living you probably dont need a paper copy anyway.

    hope this helps ya!
  8. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for suggesting that Jags. Good idea. It could solve some problems. With an alcove ceiling at say about 7 ft, you would have an overhead frame work to attach a classA pipe support box. Then you could go with less expensive interior double wall to the stove. You'd need enough depth to do this, What is the current depth of the old Preway enclosure?
  9. thechimneysweep

    thechimneysweep Minister of Fire

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    Man, I go to work for 8 hours, and this place goes nuts. Sorry I wasn't available to chime in earlier. For what it's worth, here's my take on this installation:

    Unless you want to open up the front wall to the ceiling, you'll need to stand the stove so it is all the way outside your finished alcove, AND at least 13" from your finished alcove backwall AND at least 17-1/2" from both finished sidewalls.

    You'll need to remove the combustible mantel: top clearances are to any overhanging combustible. You can replace it with a non-combustible mantel if you want.

    You'll need to raise the alcove header at least far enough so you can offset a double-wall connector pipe backward off the flue collar on top of the stove to meet the chimney inside the chase. You need 6" clearance above the nearest part of the double-wall to the header, and 6" clearance to the inner walls of your chase all around it once you get inside.

    You can support the new chimney in the chase with a wing support, or frame in a support box. Don't do this until you determine the height at the top of the connector pipe offset, and add height for an adjustable length of double-wall connector.
  10. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    After doing more reading and thinking of my options, I do think a very large and tall alcove of sorts is my best option. With the stove directly below the old pipe, I still easily have the proper clearances all the way around, the top being my only problem. With the suggestion of using the less expensive interior pipe that pretty much sealed the deal. Not that I really had much of a choice here, but it is actually a blessing in disguise. This new addition will be quite large and really open up the feel of our living room, and thats a good thing in our small house. Plus all the rock surface will provide a good dose of thermal mass wouldn't you agree? The savings in the pipe might help offset the cost of more veneer stone, but It will look rather nice when complete.

    I'll get back at it tomorrow. Thanks again everyone!

    Thanks for the link to the regs above, it is a good link to have and I will check it frequently.
  11. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    hey we all gotta work at some point but thank you for your reply. I was with you all the way until your last comment. What do you mean about "dont do this until you determine the hieght at the top of the connector pipe offset and add hieght...etc.etc"?

    I am planing on taking the header up to make a large open area, not really even an alcove anymore. That will take care of the top clearance which was the only problem left clearance wise.

    Thanks, you guys have been a big help in walking me thru this whole process and demonstrating patience Job would be envious of. :)
  12. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    well a new day and a new set of eyes brings a new twist to this adventure. After looking at this, speaking with my wife, and doing some measuring, I have no option but to close off the wall and put the stove out in the room. It will work out ok, and I'm going to build a small wood box out of stone to the side of the stove to help with the esthetics of the room. So my next question is that I'm going to use a wall thimble to have the pipe go up and then back thru the wall and then up the old chase (with new pipe) and out. I will post up a pic here in a second with where I plan on going thru the wall and the measurements around it.

    On that topic, if I use the double wall pipe, what type of clearance do I need for the thimble and what does it attach too, the studs?
  13. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    oh yeah, the reason I'm not able to do the raised alcove idea is because the main joist for the roof beams runs right across the top of this wall. To get the proper hieght I would have to cut that which I am NOT doing.
  14. rdrcr56

    rdrcr56 New Member

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    How high is the joist from the floor? The reason I'm asking is what you were thinking about doing with the alcove is what I did when we removed a Heatilator fireplace. I just framed in an alcove and ran the pipe up the existing framed in chimney, the top of the alcove is about 6.5 ft.
  15. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    To get the 56" of clearance This beam shorts me just under 9". To be honest I think the new idea we have will look better and will be easier to do. I have just enough construction knowledge to be dangerous so the less technical the better. One thing I do wonder about is how to get access to the clean out box if it is enclosed in the old chase. lol looks like a new door on the outside??? geesh this just keeps getting better and better.
  16. rdrcr56

    rdrcr56 New Member

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    Looking at the picture of what you have opened up the stud across the top is not the support joist, look up inside the framing at ceiling height that's where you should see the support joist, the doubled 2x4's on either side are what is carrying the load.
  17. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    ok so here is the pic of the area I am looking at having the pass thru to the old chase and up and out. In case you can't see the measurements they are 27" from the bottom of the header seen and the one that the roof joists r sitting on. The other one from the outside studs is 43.5". I assume I would need to remove the two inner studs in this pic to then have a combustible clearance needed assuming the thimble would remove the drywall to the proper distance???????

    Attached Files:

  18. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    thats correct. In that pic u can't see the 2X8 I am talking about. I can see the roof beams sitting on it though. Thats what keeps me 8" short of the proper height clearance.
  19. rdrcr56

    rdrcr56 New Member

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    Here are some pictures of the alcove that I built.

    Attached Files:

  20. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    man that looks really good! I wish I had the clearance to do that.
  21. jtp10181

    jtp10181 Minister of Fire

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    Yeah I like the idea of the full alcove. Tear out all that false wall framing, insulate and drywall the outer walls of the chase. Put up some nice stone or face brick. You could run Class A down to a ceiling support box at ceiling level then run connector pipe down to the stove. This would allow you to tuck the stove back in there so you have more room left. Just so you have enough width to meet clearances it will work.
  22. rdrcr56

    rdrcr56 New Member

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    Do you already have the stove? Maybe you could find one that would work with the clearances you have?
  23. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    Ok, so I guess I'm confused here (whats new). Even after I remove the false wall framing, the roof beam (is this called a top plate or rim joist?) I still do not have the proper clearances for the top of my stove. I need 56" and I can only get 46" of clearance.
  24. tlhfirelion

    tlhfirelion Member

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    yep already have the stove.
  25. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Slowdown and don't do more demolition work until you have downloaded and read some installation manuals for chimney flues. Also, be careful to use the right terminology because it can be confusing and misleading to just say double-wall. For simplicity sake, let's use Simpson Duravent pipe terms.

    For the interior flue piping you will use DVL double wall pipe. It needs a minimum of 6" clearance to combustibles. For everything on the other side of the wall you will use class A double-wall pipe (DuraTech). This class A pipe has a minimum 2" clearance requirement. Now, for the moment lets ignore the boxed exterior chase. Assume it isn't even there. What you will be constructing is an exterior class A flue, hopefully with a clean out tee on the bottom. There will be a short horiz. class A pipe that extends from the tee, through the thimble, 6" into the room. The thimble is an adjustable bracket that maintains the 2" clearances. You shouldn't need to remove any of the existing vertical studs as long as the flue is centered on one of the existing stud spaces. If not, you will need to box it in. Does that make sense? From that stub of class A now sticking 6" into the room you will transition to the 6" double wall interior pipe for a short horizontal run, then an elbow directly over the stove flue connector and straight down to link the stove to the elbow. Try to be sure that the horiz. connecting pipe between the elbow and the thimble is pitched uphill 1/4" per foot. Smoke does not go downhill very well.


    Simpson installation instructions:
    http://www.duravent.com/?page=ts.php (choose from the second popup menu - DuraTech 5"-8")

    Look at figure 24 on page 17 for a diagram of how the thimble works in conjunction with the clean out tee. Figure 27 is close to what your setup will look like, but you have a top vented stove so up to an elbow and then connect to that to the thimble.
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